Leave Black Cleaver to tanky bruisers/juggernauts

Dormidon·Feb 5, 2017·50 votes·2,804 views

I think got enough armpen/lethality toys now. They shred armor even better than current 60% armpen . Seriously this item is originally supposed to be bruiser choice against early season 5 cindehulk tanks. Remember it? 400 HP, 40 dmg and 3000 cost. I suggest you to make it scale from max HP. For example 1.7% dmg. Reduce total cost from 3100 to 2800. Yeah this would be unreliable for Riven-Jayce etc etc. (+34 dmg at 2000 HP.) Please don't hate me but I'm sick to see this item as a core for glasscannons.

55 Comments

ChaddyFantomeFeb 5, 20176 votes

item 3071 was never "intended" for Bruisers. It was meant for AD casters, champions that deal physical damage primarily via their spells.

Lo and behold the champs you listed all fit this paradigm.

DormidonFeb 5, 20179 votes

{quoted}

was never "intended" for Bruisers. It was meant for AD casters, champions that deal physical damage primarily via their spells.

Lo and behold the champs you listed all fit this paradigm.

It gives HP and movement speed buffs. Making mobile Jayce, Riven and Talon even faster with it. What a brillian game design

ChaddyFantomeFeb 5, 20173 votes

{quoted}

It gives HP and movement speed buffs. Making mobile Jayce, Riven and Talon even faster with it. What a brillian game design

Talon isn't even mobile outside his E. he has a low base MS of 335. Veigar has more ground speed than him lol. Jayce at least has his Gate to speed him up, but Talon isn't gonna be using his ulti JUST for the movespeed in most scenarios.

it is normal and justified that these melee AD caster get some even if minor MS steroid from an item like this just so they don't get kited into oblivion, regardless of them being juggernauts or not.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 5, 20172 votes

But...but MF was always good with it :c

ErockandrollFeb 5, 201723 votes

{quoted}

was never "intended" for Bruisers. It was meant for AD casters, champions that deal physical damage primarily via their spells.

Lo and behold the champs you listed all fit this paradigm.

When it was reworked in the Juggernaut update initially, it had closer to 500 HP but only like 30 AD. (Built out of phage and killington Gem)

The Ironic part about it is, they reworked it to be a Juggernaut item, but then flipped it's offensive and defensive power, because it was apparently too oppressive, on the very class of champ it was made for. (Juggernauts getting too tanky too quickly or something)

Big LincolnFeb 5, 20177 votes

that's not why; they reworked it because they wanted it to be a viable choice on more champions than just the juggernauts and a handful of bruisers

juggernauts don't abuse items

UltîmaFeb 5, 20176 votes

Darius item 3071

Big LincolnFeb 5, 20176 votes

Darius lost the MS on his passive to make him want cleaver, and the bleed became physical damage so he could stack it quickly

not really an abuse case when he and the item were designed around each other

SpecterVonBarenFeb 5, 20174 votes

Just being designed around each other doesn't mean it isn't abusive. Kalista was designed to be nigh uncatchable with her passive but it doesn't mean it wasn't a bad idea.

LordGeovanniFeb 6, 20171 votes

that isnt abuse thats an unfortunate case where intended items were too good.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 5, 20173 votes

{quoted}

When it was reworked in the Juggernaut update initially, it had closer to 500 HP but only like 30 AD. (Built out of phage and killington Gem)

The Ironic part about it is, they reworked it to be a Juggernaut item, but then flipped it's offensive and defensive power, because it was apparently too oppressive, on the very class of champ it was made for. (Juggernauts getting too tanky too quickly or something)

No, the reason they flipped it was because it left the AD casters that were also supposed to make use if it in a shitty state, with awkward stats and build path. With the removal and split of Brutalizer, Riot was finally able to make it to where it was balanced all around for casters be Bruiser, assassin or Juggernaut alike.

Because of Brutalizers historically over efficient statline, Riot couldn't balance it around multiple classes that got the item. it either ended viable for one and then abusive on the other or vice versa.

The change is the juggernaut update was just one of the steps to them figuring that out.

ßurstFeb 5, 20171 votes

Little do you know black cleaver used to build out of phage and a brutalizer(10% cdr arm pen and like 25 ad)

MissingKayoFeb 5, 20172 votes

Congratulations on being completely fucking wrong.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Congratulations on being completely fucking wrong.

Hope the award is for you then.

SasogwaFeb 5, 20174 votes

{quoted}

was never "intended" for Bruisers. It was meant for AD casters, champions that deal physical damage primarily via their spells.

Lo and behold the champs you listed all fit this paradigm.

It was intended for juggernaughts as a one-damage-item, since they have generally physical damage, good synergy with health and CDR and like the movespeed. Also making them increasingly more dangerous the longer you stay close to them. Pretty good design if it's not abused by other classes tbh.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It was intended for juggernaughts as a one-damage-item, since they have generally physical damage, good synergy with health and CDR and like the movespeed. Also making them increasingly more dangerous the longer you stay close to them. Pretty good design if it's not abused by other classes tbh.

Black cleaver existed long before juggernauts were even established as a class. it was put in the game in s3, specifically as a core item for AD casters that didn't have good items.

Brush up on your history, m8.

DormidonFeb 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Black cleaver existed long before juggernauts were even established as a class. it was put in the game in s3, specifically as a core item for AD casters that didn't have good items.

Brush up on your history, m8.

He talks about reworked 5.8 BC after brutalizer fate. Btw it was put in the game long before s3. I remember it gave 50 ad 200 hp and 50 as. Times when Warmog was stacking extra 350 hp (force of nature and heart of gold tho)

ChaddyFantomeFeb 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

He talks about reworked 5.8 BC after brutalizer fate. Btw it was put in the game long before s3. I remember it gave 50 ad 200 hp and 50 as. Times when Warmog was stacking extra 350 hp (force of nature and heart of gold tho)

Sorry, I started playing early season 2 bur only started playing regularly in season 3, before I even knew seasons were a thing so the exact time period is rather hazy to me admittedly.

Also, I remember league of mogs xDD good fucking times lmao.

SasogwaFeb 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Black cleaver existed long before juggernauts were even established as a class. it was put in the game in s3, specifically as a core item for AD casters that didn't have good items.

Brush up on your history, m8.

I'm talking about the last iteration of black cleaver dude, not the item that used to be played on vayne and gave 30 % attack speed. Or of the next iteration that gave flat armor penetration.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm talking about the last iteration of black cleaver dude, not the item that used to be played on vayne and gave 30 % attack speed. Or of the next iteration that gave flat armor penetration.

So you wanna ignore the history of the item to pretend your stance has any validity? Yea, seems reasonable. The core purpose and identity of the item ha always remained true. How riot tried to balance it is a different question entirely, and trying to pretend that the changes to the item are all in vacuums and have no bearings on one another is silly.

SasogwaFeb 5, 20174 votes

{quoted}

So you wanna ignore the history of the item to pretend your stance has any validity? Yea, seems reasonable. The core purpose and identity of the item ha always remained true. How riot tried to balance it is a different question entirely, and trying to pretend that the changes to the item are all in vacuums and have no bearings on one another is silly.

? The item now has a niche designed to be used by juggernaughts because they decided to make it this way ; and because they adapted his niche to it and created other items in the AD caster niche to compensate, such as item 3147 and item 3814 . I don't understand why you are so amazed by what it used to be. Would it bear a huge meaning if we swapped the names of Infinity Edge and Rabadon's Deathcap? No. So why do you care about the fact an item was reworked and is now completely different than what it used to be, if they created new items in his previous niche to compensate?

Critmaster GarenFeb 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Black cleaver existed long before juggernauts were even established as a class. it was put in the game in s3, specifically as a core item for AD casters that didn't have good items.

Brush up on your history, m8.

since then a lot changed though.

the group of ad casters the item was designed for were mainly bruisers like Garen Renekton Darius and ad assassins like Pantheon Talon (when he still had his bleed on his q)

but ad assassins have had their itemization reworked, and they have their own core items now instead of having to borrow from ad carry and bruiser itemization item 3147 item 3814 item 3142

i think they will be fine on lethality builds.

and its not like changing cleaver stats back to support bruisers more would make the item completely unviable for them. it would just take bruisers needs more into consideration than of adc and assassins when it comes to cleaver.

is what op is saying.

The TrentFeb 5, 20174 votes

{quoted}

was never "intended" for Bruisers. It was meant for AD casters, champions that deal physical damage primarily via their spells.

Lo and behold the champs you listed all fit this paradigm.

Why is this guy getting downvotes when he's right?

ChaddyFantomeFeb 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Why is this guy getting downvotes when he's right?

Because these people haven't been playing the game very long.

NineTailedMysticFeb 6, 20172 votes

No, because it had its identity changed into a Juggernaut item.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No, because it had its identity changed into a Juggernaut item.

well by that logic, it had it's identity changed back during the markman update to being an AD caster item again.

hurr durr.

Sire HippingtonFeb 5, 20175 votes

Blackcleaver was orignally a dps item for AA focused champs, then it was reworked for ad-casters, then more focused towards bruiser while still beeing good on casters. I wouldn't mind getting a tankier BC, but ad-caster would need some compensation for their itzeisation, especially in terms of CDR and infight mobillity. It also might cause a return of the metagolem if we get a hp->ad conversion, riven and co running around with item 3071 item 3053 item 3748 item 3022 item 3026 killing everything while hardly dieing themselfs.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 5, 20172 votes

Why would AD casters need compensation?

AirKingNeoFeb 5, 20171 votes

I mean, a few might need it. I mean Jayce can suck it. Varus doesn't get it anymore. MF may need a slight buff. Riven might need a slight buff if cleaver if was nerfed.

Sire HippingtonFeb 6, 20171 votes

Because currently most of them rely on BC to scale into lategame with the %shred as well as with the 20%cdr. Without BC, ad-casters would have some issues itemizeing for cdr, especially if they get other %pen items which is to be expected.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 6, 20171 votes

And? Who cares if they fall of a bit, there's so much damage in the game right now that they'll still nuke everyone else just like all the other classes (Except marksmen) are doing.

Covert Ops GnarFeb 5, 20174 votes

Atmas impaler *cough

DormidonFeb 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Covert Ops Gnar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BKQiWLMy,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-02-05T06:14:19.177+0000)

Atmas impaler *cough

Missed this item. I think in current meta even pre nerf atma (if they return it) wouldnt be a problem.

FlitcheeFeb 5, 20172 votes

Are you kidding me? Like are you actually kidding me? all you'd see out of a melee AD top laner would be a titanic rush followed immediately by atmas into full tank, or throwing in a cleaver too depending on the champion. If this item was around in the games current state, it would be absolutely bonkers, just solely because of titanic, you'd be double dipping damage from hp, and guess what? a game with absurd damage to begin with in this state, suddenly skyrockets. No thank you.

Critmaster GarenFeb 5, 20173 votes

just revert the stats and recipe to item 3067 + item 3044 and 400 healh 40 ad.

DormidonFeb 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BKQiWLMy,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2017-02-05T17:36:15.667+0000)

just revert the stats and recipe to + and 400 healh 40 ad.

Riven used to benefit from this recipe

Critmaster GarenFeb 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Riven used to benefit from this recipe

more than from stacking longswords to build into cleaver? not sure about that. i think the ability to just stack straight damage to build into cleaver, makes it an easier rush item for her, since it allows her to snowball in lane.

everything in her kit scales with bonus ad. her early powerspikes and ability to flash, cc chain and 1 combo you would be a lot less threatening if she would need to build health instead of ad to rush cleaver.

DormidonFeb 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BKQiWLMy,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2017-02-05T17:44:59.493+0000)

more than from stacking longswords to build into cleaver? not sure about that. i think the ability to just stack straight damage to build into cleaver, makes it an easier rush item for her, since it allows her to snowball in lane.

True dat man

Troll for TrumpFeb 5, 20172 votes

I don't think Graves buys it. Don't forget the other ADC abusers MissFortune Lucian Draven

Talon Riven and Jayce have always bought it. Jayce is strong out of circumstance, Riven is always strong, and Talon is unknown. Maybe sleeper OP, but it shouldn't be too bad.

SpoofghoulFeb 5, 20171 votes

graves applies 1 shred per pellet ofc he buys it

Ad Vitam AeternaFeb 5, 20171 votes

It's definitely not a core item on Graves.

High elo Graves don't buy it often and it's not even on champion.gg in his build which often has less optimal builds.

VenomarFeb 5, 20171 votes

League of graphs showing about 20% of games diamond+ so it's definitely a thing. Probably pretty enemy comp specific.

DormidonFeb 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

graves applies 1 shred per pellet ofc he buys it

Replaced him with Kha'Zix

DaNinadFeb 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I don't think Graves buys it. Don't forget the other ADC abusers

Talon Riven and Jayce have always bought it. Jayce is strong out of circumstance, Riven is always strong, and Talon is unknown. Maybe sleeper OP, but it shouldn't be too bad.

Since when do you buy black cleaver with draven? is it korea or something

Troll for TrumpFeb 6, 20171 votes

Yup, it's an interesting ahead build

RexSaurFeb 5, 20172 votes

Who said it isnt intended to be used by Jayce, Riven and etc?

Its an AD caster AND bruiser item, it has the perfect stats for ad casters, its a item for all those AD champions to be able to deal with the overpowered tanks.

Just because you're biased doesnt mean it should be juggernaut only, and full lethality build sucks on riven, its overrated.

Asayake 5150glowFeb 5, 20172 votes

Hell no how the hell would we deal with tanks outside of rushing LW? And even then, we can barely get past base stats and we'll also be so squishy tanks will literally oneshot us.

DJMason88Feb 5, 20171 votes

Isn't Riven a bruiser?

DormidonFeb 5, 20171 votes