Soooo Kog's too focused on W

Rebonack··42 votes·1,723 views

That is, honestly, the heart of the problem.

That's been the problem ever since Riot moved the attack speed from Q to W. Then removed the attack speed. Then added extra flat OnHit damage. Without exaggerating, something like 75% of Kog's power potential has been crammed into his W, and the rest of his kit is suffering because of it. People don't even bother putting a single point into Q until they absolutely have to.

I haven't done one of these in a long time, so I figured it's do. Time for-

A Kog remake thread!

Try to keep your enthusiasm in check, I know you're excited. Just remember to vote for the walrus option. It's what all the cool people do.

Passive BLEEEEGH!: Kog'Maw's attack speed from all sources and attack speed cap are doubled. However, his basic attacks only have a 50% total attack damage ratio against non-minions.

But why? Kog's kamikaze passive is straight up removed. Also note that his basic attacks hit for 50% power rather than 55%. That's a straight damage nerf all around. That should open up a decent amount of kit power for the rest of the changes proposed here.

Q Passive: Kog'Maw's basic attacks deal (percentage that increases with skill level and bonus AD) of the target's maximum HP as bonus magic damage OnHit. Active: Kog'Maw fires a caustic projectile that deals (amount) magic damage and shreds (percentage) of their resistance.

But why? Three reasons. First and most obviously, to split Kog's power more evenly between his Q and W. This delays his power spike and pushes his scaling a bit more toward late game. Second, it helps to further cement Kog's position as an ADC focused on softening up hard targets for his team. Finally, making his %HP scale with bonus AD damage helps to resolve between AP and AD Kog.

W Active: Kog'Maw gains additional range and flat magic damage OnHit (scales with skill level and AP) for (duration).

But why? We see here a clear delineation between W and Q. Putting points in Q allows Kog to better tackle beefy targets. He gains %HP damage AND resistance shredding. Putting points in W allows Kog to shell more dangerous (and often softer) distant targets with strong flat magic damage. This would give Kog a very clear choice in his skill order based on what his player feels the greater threat is for any particular game.

E Active: Slow increased to 35/40/45/50/55%.

But why? Simply put, to make E a better one-point-wonder option. Kog should probably be leading with Q or W and he might want to level up the other skill second. Increasing E's slow a little bit at level 1 makes leaving E at level 1 a viable option if the situation demands.

R Active: Kog'Maw fires a long range artillery skillshot that deals (percentage) bonus base damage per 1% of the target's missing HP. Bonus AD causes Living Artillery to deal bonus magic damage equal to (percentage) of the target's missing HP per 100 bonus AD. AP causes Living Artillery to deal (AP ratio) bonus flat magic damage.

But why? Kog's Ult damage is smoothed out rather than increasing with fits and starts. Following the trend set by Q and W, bonus AD helps Kog to execute beefy targets while AP is focused on soft targets, giving Kog different incentives to build different stats. Because if you ask me, build flexibility is one of the things that makes Kog so fun.

So there you are. Remaking the remake to (hopefully) make it a bit easier to actually balance. Because right now stuffing all that power into his W just doesn't seem to be working well.

Thoughts?

27 Comments

EndlessSorcerer12 votes

Honestly, I much preferred his kit pre-rework and would be rather happy if they just reverted it.

He had his strength and weaknesses, he had flexible build paths (AD, AP, Trinity Force + Bork rush), and he would frequently kite while weaving abilities in-between his autoattacks.

Nowadays, he just stacks on-hit effects and finds a good spot to autoattack from, presses W and stays there until the enemy dies or he does.

Bisaknosp8 votes

yea old kog was one of my favourite adc's but after his rework i just cant enjoy playing this champ anymore he is extremely boring to play

Wind Whistler3 votes

{quoted}

yea old kog was one of my favourite adc's but after his rework i just cant enjoy playing this champ anymore he is extremely boring to play

He was also my favorite mage. Especially in ARAM. I'd get an average of 70k damage per game.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, I much preferred his kit pre-rework and would be rather happy if they just reverted it.

He had his strength and weaknesses, he had flexibly build paths (AD, AP, Trinity Force + Bork rush), and he would frequently kite while weaving abilities in-between his autoattacks.

Nowadays, he just stacks on-hit effects and finds a good spot to autoattack from, presses W and stays there until the enemy dies or he does.

I'm with you on this one, but the chances of Riot reverting a remake are pretty much nonexistent.

Shadow Hazard4 votes

You can't be making a long range hypercarry have any type of % health as a passive. That is simply making an overloaded kit again with W still being the one skill wonder as long as there is a single point into Q.

I think agree that the skill needs to be spit up into his kit, but absolutely not in any passive form

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shadow Hazard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=miwMQaEg,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-08-28T19:31:54.257+0000)

You can't be making a long range hypercarry have any type of % health as a passive.

Why not?

Shadow Hazard2 votes

Look at the last few champs that have %health passives built into their kit, kindred, vayne, and fiora. All of them were a serious balance issue at points in the past because of their ability to completely invalidate part of your defensive component. It has been a frequent point of balance issue for the past year for champs. Now you want to give that to a champ with an almost unchallenged range, I guess that means you want part of his kit getting a compensation gutting?

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shadow Hazard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=miwMQaEg,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-08-29T03:03:15.786+0000)

Look at the last few champs that have %health passives built into their kit, kindred, vayne, and fiora. All of them were a serious balance issue at points in the past because of their ability to completely invalidate part of your defensive component. It has been a frequent point of balance issue for the past year for champs. Now you want to give that to a champ with an almost unchallenged range, I guess that means you want part of his kit getting a compensation gutting?

It's all a numbers game. The only question that's relevant is 'could this feature be powerful enough to make it feel impactful without over-tuning it?' I think it could be. But it would probably take some fiddling to find the right spot.

But I won't pretend my idea is perfect. This topic is mostly just to generate discussion. How would you suggest splitting up his overloaded W?

Lintu Puck3 votes

ya no, give me back my revenge kill passive. it's about the only way Kog has a chance to get back at someone diving him or barely winning a duel on luck. I've been able to stay in the game because of that passive before because of the kills I got with it.

GrReaper961 votes

Well to be fair other ADCs dont get the chance to get back if someone barely wins a duel on luck

Lintu Puck1 votes

and it's become as much an iconic part of his kit as say, Twisted Fate's and Shen's global teleports or Renagar's stealth ult. Yes all 3 of those have seen/will see tweaks and changes, but never out-right removed.

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lintu Puck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=miwMQaEg,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2016-08-29T19:04:02.112+0000)

and it's become as much an iconic part of his kit as say, Twisted Fate's and Shen's global teleports or Renagar's stealth ult. Yes all 3 of those have seen/will see tweaks and changes, but never out-right removed.

It's about as fundamental to Kog's kit as Zyra's death nuke was. The only on-death passive that feels like the rest of the kit is built around it is Karthus'.

Lintu Puck1 votes

there is a difference between Zyra's old passive and Kog's surprise boom, people have fun with it. A lot of people disliked Zyra's old passive cause it was hard to hit/kill with and was rather unsatisfying, while I have seen a lot more people have fun with Kog's passive, not to mention it's easier to hit/kill things with it then Zyra's skill shot death passive.

Eedat2 votes

Dont forget his most common and most successful skill order involves not putting a single point into his Q until level 13 when you are absolutely forced to

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Dont forget his most common and most successful skill order involves not putting a single point into his Q until level 13 when you are absolutely forced to

Which should be a clear indicator that Kog's skills are poorly designed at the moment. I don't know who decided to move his attack speed from Q to W, but it was a terrible idea.

Y'know who told Riot it was a terrible idea?

Every single Kog player.

Moving the %HP OnHit over to Q would help solve that issue while also making Q Kog's obvious choice for dealing with beefy targets.

Eedat1 votes

Which should be a clear indicator that Kog's skills are poorly designed at the moment.

I know, I was agreeing with you

venomous frost1 votes

haha walrus

Kivolan1 votes

Same things I've been saying for the last week. One thing I really think needs to go completely, though: the bonus range. It's too excessive.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Same things I've been saying for the last week. One thing I really think needs to go completely, though: the bonus range. It's too excessive.

I think it would be possible to remove the bonus range from Kog's W, but if Riot took that route then the skill would need something else unless the flat OnHit damage it grants got cranked up to absurd levels. In a world where Koggy's W doesn't give bonus range, I feel giving him Omnivore style healing (as per Gunblade) would be a pretty great fit.

He's supposed to eat things after all, right? But none of his skills really communicate that.

A change of that fashion would basically turn Kog into a ranged Juggernaut, which would be a niche that the game doesn't really have.

Sightless661 votes

I don't see much value here. You may split the power of the autoattacking between the Q and W, but ultimately, he's still got all of that power in exactly the same gameplay patterns. You haven't fixed the problem of me not giving a single fuck about the Q skillshot, I still do pretty much everything by autoattacking. If we're changing him, it should be in a way that makes him actually care about the other mechanics besides his autoattacking, instead of just splitting up the power of the autoattacks between multiple skill points.

Aside from that, the idea of giving him %health as passive damage isn't going to work. Right now, he goes from huge damage while the W is up to lower damage while it's down. With your proposal, he'd have the vast majority of his damage available at all times, with only the on-hit damage on W as a time-based steroid. Having no downtime at all on his dps is going to be a massive pain for anyone playing against him.

Finally, if your goal is to reduce the power of his early game, I have to strongly question the value of letting him do full damage to minions with his increased attack speed. That kind of waveclear is a very powerful fallback pattern.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I don't see much value here. You may split the power of the autoattacking between the Q and W, but ultimately, he's still got all of that power in exactly the same gameplay patterns. You haven't fixed the problem of me not giving a single fuck about the Q skillshot, I still do pretty much everything by autoattacking. If we're changing him, it should be in a way that makes him actually care about the other mechanics besides his autoattacking, instead of just splitting up the power of the autoattacks between multiple skill points.

This is meant to be a low-scope suggestion that's assuming Riot wants to keep the brain-dead machine-gun nest gameplay that Kog has since he remake. If our goal is to make him fun again, then I would say axe the whole concept of double attackspeed and give him a full VGU. Kog is much more fun as an artillery focused champion.

And I think you're underestimating the impact that splitting his OnHit damage apart would have. There's a reason why Kog's win-rate skyrocketed when all his power was dumped into W.

Sightless661 votes

This is meant to be a low-scope suggestion

I understand that, but I don't think it solves any significant problems. The only thing it really accomplishes is making Kog need more points in Q, but it doesn't create any new gameplay to actually make him like the active use of the Q any more than it does now. It fixes something that really isn't very important, while leaving the real problem (the boring Q mechanic) completely unaltered. It will do almost nothing to make him feel better. Meanwhile, it introduces multiple new problems, including the general lack of downtime and vastly improved pushing early game.

Basically, I don't see any point in forcing someone to put points in the Q if the Q isn't an interesting enough mechanic to make people want to use it. It's a dull, uninteresting, linear skillshot on a kit that already has another one. It has no reason to exist. One of the best things about the Kog rework is that I'm not forced to use that dull mechanic anymore. Finding a new mechanic that actually fits his kit should come before we force people to start putting points into it.

I think you're underestimating the impact that splitting his OnHit damage apart would have.

I'm not. It would certainly hurt him. The only claims I made about his power were that his early game would be improved, and given how you've made his pushing extremely strong, I stick by that assessment. More importantly, the other things you add introduce power in ways that aren't particularly healthy (extremely easy pushing in the early game, minimal downtime on damage late game), and those aren't areas where Kog should have power concentrated. These are not things that will make him easier to balance. Permanent %health damage and huge pushing at early levels are both major sticking points for the balance team. Both make champions significantly harder to balance.

axe the whole concept of double attackspeed and give him a full VGU. Kog is much more fun as an artillery focused champion.

Meh. I'm enjoying Kog more now than I did before. I enjoyed old AD Kog, and he wasn't an artillery champion by any means. He had one average poke in his ult that was used primarily for the sheen proc, and the Q/E were mechanically similar to how they are now. Having the double attack is far more interesting than the way the W used to work, and it's unique. I'm not interested at all in seeing it changed. My opinion may be different if I had enjoyed old AP Kog, but I didn't.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Basically, I don't see any point in forcing someone to put points in the Q if the Q isn't an interesting enough mechanic to make people want to use it. It's a dull, uninteresting, linear skillshot on a kit that already has another one. It has no reason to exist. One of the best things about the Kog rework is that I'm not forced to use that dull mechanic anymore. Finding a new mechanic that actually fits his kit should come before we force people to start putting points into it.

Ah, okay, I see where you're coming from now.

Remaking Kog's Q with the goal of making it a more compelling skill rather than just tacking another passive onto it is pretty tricky, especially given the way Kog's being played right now. Namely, 'find a good spot, push W, and kill things.' As it stands, his E and R both factor into that play dynamic pretty well. E slows things down so they can't run out of range (or get into range as easily) and R is for finishing off low HP targets who managed to escape Kog's auto-attack range.

And Q?

Well.

Q softens up one front-line guy. That really isn't an issue until mid/late game. Which is why the skill doesn't get any points put into it. Getting that extra slow% is more important most of the time. For Q to be worth putting points in, it needs to make a meaningful contribution to Kog's ability to machine-gun things down. Moving the %HP damage over to Q in some capacity (either a passive or Shyvana style) is just the simplest solution to the problem.

Another option would be to go in the exact opposite direction. Turn Q into a low cooldown nuke that Kog can fall back on when his W is unavailable or inappropriate to use. His Ult used to fill that role, but since the remake it's only an execute and scouting tool. A spammy Q that deals respectable damage and grinds down the target's resistance could be pretty neat.

TheOvermind1 votes

I really really like your ideas I think they are great , make absolute sense and hope riot will implement them

However I have One small issue:

With all that ad scaling , he feels pressured to build lots of ad , while sacrificing atk speed (his core stat)
Ad kog is quite weak since he only does 50% phs dmg, but he feels good about it because his q passive does more Magic dmg now ? I dunno I guess I would still build him atk speed / on hit (which Are applied fully ) to make the most out of him

A build like : Nashors , b grieves , wits end , gunblade, rageblade, hurricane

Gives him like 300 ad and 300 ap ( with fully stacked rageblade) which makes good use of all his new scalings. So I think that would be the best build path

The Great Divide1 votes

ORRRRRRR

We could just revert Kog back to the way he was pre-rework.... Where he had a balanced ADC playstyle, a fun and niche AP playstyle, and wasn't a hot mess of a champion.

Honestly, Repertoir is making a nice list of champions he is failing at reworking (Malzahar, Kog'maw, Garen, Skarner, Quinn)

Saianna1 votes

Funny thing is we, players, did inform Riot at least few times that their rework idea (not whole rework, just throwing everything into W) is not gonna work.

What we reply did we recieve?

"K, who cares, be quiet, we know better, go play Lee Sin."

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

Funny thing is we, players, did inform Riot at least few times that their rework idea (not whole rework, just throwing everything into W) is not gonna work.

What we reply did we recieve?

"K, who cares, be quiet, we know better, go play Lee Sin."

I could even dredge up one of my earlier topics that got a red reply where this exact sentiment was expressed by every single Kog player in the topic.

'Hey Riot, moving the attack speed to Kog's W was a bad buff. Revert it and try something else.' -Every Kog player in the topic

'lol, getgud scrubs, you don't know what you're talking about.' -Riot's live balance team

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