ADC's Just have too much defensive itemization...

GigglesO·Jul 21, 2017·82 votes·3,672 views

They have in-combat sustain, access to armor and MR items... You can't really just blow them up easily (if they are miss-positioned) anymore...

188 Comments

BLACK REALM GODJul 21, 20179 votes

i only know of a few defensive items. which ones are you using?

item 3139 item 3156 item 3111 item 3026 item 3047

SwiftKitten88Jul 21, 201732 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mfkNFhcg,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-21T22:25:55.547+0000)

i only know of a few defensive items. which ones are you using?

item 3812 is by far the worst and u didnt even list it item 3046 item 3072 gives you a shield overheal

and EVERY life steal weapon is technically defensive

BLACK REALM GODJul 21, 20174 votes

well for starters deaths dance being used on a marksman (if that's what you meant by adc) doesnt go so well.

phantom dancer is great, but doesnt provide raw damage. furthermore the passive on phantom dancer should never prevent you from losing a 1v1 against them unless you're a support and at that point why are you 1v1ing the marksman anyway? the reason being that marksmen share a lane and will level at .75 the pace of everyone else.

blood thirster's cost is overshadowed by grievous wounds and how little hp marksmen have to begin with - though if your opponents fail to keep you in check then yes blood thirster can be problematic.

in order for a marksman to utilize any of these items properly they'd have to combine it with another. no one marksman has enough base attack speed and damage to spike with a single item.

SwiftKitten88Jul 21, 201711 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mfkNFhcg,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-07-21T22:55:12.860+0000)

well for starters deaths dance being used on a marksman (if that's what you meant by adc) doesnt go so well.

phantom dancer is great, but doesnt provide raw damage. furthermore the passive on phantom dancer should never prevent you from losing a 1v1 against them unless you're a support and at that point why are you 1v1ing the marksman anyway? the reason being that marksmen share a lane and will level at .75 the pace of everyone else.

blood thirster's cost is overshadowed by grievous wounds and how little hp marksmen have to begin with - though if your opponents fail to keep you in check then yes blood thirster can be problematic.

in order for a marksman to utilize any of these items properly they'd have to combine it with another. no one marksman has enough base attack speed and damage to spike with a single item.

... deaths dance on marksman is the biggest issue out of any marksmen item...

the 30% damage reduction

means they have 3 second to kill you in return instead of taking what would have otherwise been fatal damage from a full combo

and since you just used all your abilties.. your stuck.. and your dead.

even though u caught them out all alone off gaurd and u got your full combo off becuase they even got a 2nd auto off.. you lose the fight.

oh and then they dont die becuase they healed off killing you...

obviously if they went going to take fatal damage in the first place it make no difference. but it doesn't even take 3 second for an adc to kill an 4k hp full tank, let alone an assassin with no defenses and less than 2k hp.

It Hertz When IPJul 22, 20176 votes

It's not damage reduction. That would remove 30% of the damage. The damage is just delayed.

It's a subtle distinction, but in many situations that distinction becomes the difference between life and death.

SwiftKitten88Jul 22, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=It Hertz When IP,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mfkNFhcg,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-22T01:09:39.119+0000)

It's not damage reduction. That would remove 30% of the damage. The damage is just delayed.

It's a subtle distinction, but in many situations that distinction becomes the difference between life and death.

its a flat 30% reduction, then that 30 percent that got mitigated is then dealt over three seconds

i agree that there is not a big difference if the damage dealt would not have been fatal

but let me give an example that is all to familar to me

i land a max range spear (that damage is reduced by 30%) i pounce in (reduced by 30%, i swipe (again reduced by 30%)

now at this point they have taken an effective 30% damage reduction... they might have taken about 5% of that damage back over the half second i closed the distance with pounce)

but when i land i use takedown...

now... this skills SCALES off their missing hp..

well at the moment i use takedown.. they have MORE hp than they would have without 30% reduction...

so my takedown isn't JUST reduced by the 30%.. its also reduced by them NOT have taking at LEAST 20% of that damage that would have been dealt to them leaving with with a MINIMUM of 20% MORE (even assuming it takes me an entire second to land the takedown) hp than would have...

i cant WAIT becuase then they would turn around and kill me... i can't even item 3157 becuase they would still turn around and either heal off minions or they would flat out run away... and since i already used my gap closer... i cant do much...

and i CANT wait three seconds after landing the spear.. becuase hunted only LASTS 4 seconds.. and it would take absolutely perfect timing with no minions nearby and the enemy having no play to escape to and not getting out of my pounce range to just that last second AND take the takedown in time for it STILL to be empowered with them hunted. (becuase if they aren't hunted then it does MUCH less)

it's NOT just delayed damage. it also hurts my skills that scale off their % hp because they haven't LOST said hp yet.

WimbledofyJul 22, 20174 votes

no idea why you got downvoted. people are pretty dumb I guess

It Hertz When IPJul 22, 20173 votes

Eh, I dared to contradicte the anti-Death's Dance hate train. Which is funny, because I genuinely think the item's overtuned.

Cryo00Jul 22, 20179 votes

I don't know man, phantom dancer as an item is too cheap and ridiculously good. it provides 5 different things as well. Sure it doesn't provide damage but 45% attack speed, 30% critical chance, 12% damage reduction (even though its only against one enemy), upto 12% movement speed AND ghosting ? and all this for just 2600 gold ?

SzGamer227Jul 22, 20175 votes

Death's Dance is anti-burst. Adc's take 30% less burst damage and are given 3 seconds of lifesteal to heal that damage back. To reliably burst an adc that is using Death's Dance, you have to deal 140% of their current health in damage in one spell rotation.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 22, 20172 votes

140% of 0 is still pretty easy to get ;)

SzGamer227Jul 22, 20174 votes

True, but most people don't have issues trying to kill an adc that's already dead... :P

Automated R1venJul 22, 20172 votes

Pd is like a 30% damage increase.

ShablagooJul 22, 20172 votes

PD does provide dmg it give you crit which makes your attacks deal double what they usually do which honestly is huge man.

BLACK REALM GODJul 22, 20171 votes

it doesnt give raw damage. criticals are only good when you stack 60% or more. that takes roughly 3 items.

ShablagooJul 22, 20172 votes

So are u sayin that because crit items dont provide raw dmg they arent good? PD with IE give an adc 50% along with 50+ crit dmg thats huge.50% of a champions attacks are crit along with the fact that PD gives the most attack speed out of all the zeal items makes it well worth. You can use the fact that an item doesn't provide raw dmg as an argument if it makes you dmg twice as strong regardless. One of the strongest crit builds for trist is item 3094 item 3087 item 3031 Two of them not even providing raw dmg yet I've seen trist dominate game. Scaling also is huge too, pd gives more attack speed and provides great scaling.

I dont think adc's should have such strong defensive options considering the fact that they have a whole other class that provide item 3504 item 3222 item 3109 item 3107 All this for adc's heal and shield strength all stacking with each other additively, giving them huge heals and shields already. Do you really think removing the dmg reduction from pd will hurt adc's as much?

30% mitigation is huge too 800 dmg is turned into 560 and 240 is turn into a bleed that can be healed back and shields and heals from the support makes Draven a monster. Either support items need to be weaker or adc's need weaker defensive items, GA is strong enough considering the power of supports now.

BLACK REALM GODJul 22, 20171 votes

no. im saying that attack speed items that dont give raw damage arent good on their own. best case scenario is you have raw damage in your kit already.

phantom dancer + infinity edge is attack speed + raw damage. the criticals are just a bonus.

rapidfire cannon and statikk shiv are attack speed and infinity edge is raw damage.

the support isnt meant to babysit the marksman. they're a secondary roamer who spends most of their time bottom since marksmen usually have the best micromanagement kit in order to level as fast as possible.

do i think it will hurt marksmen? no, but it will hurt fighters immensely.

the last part of your argument was based on draven alone. thereby making it an invalid argument against phantom dancer and deaths dance and more so an argument against draven. so nerf draven?

ExecutionerJul 22, 20172 votes

More like nerf Deaths Dance. Some people just dont understand.

sardiniiiJul 22, 20176 votes

LIfesteal dosent really matter if you get bursted.

Votable JesterJul 22, 201722 votes

Don't forget the item 3109 thrown on them.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 22, 20179 votes

Items that are bought on other roles should not count as something in the toolkit for an ADC to buy. You can slap knight's vow, locket, redemption, and face of the mountain on literally anyone.

Votable JesterJul 22, 201710 votes

Yeah except Knight's vow is specifically on one ally and almost always thrown on specifically the adc. It also isn't active damage mitigation with a cooldown unlike those others you listed.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 22, 20179 votes

Let's be fair and list them all item 3812 item 3022 item 3026 item 3156 item 3139 item 3046 item 3072 item 3071 item 3111 item 3047 with a shout out to potentially defensive options item 3153 item 3094 and the old style, but not prevelent anymore option item 3053

WoonStruckJul 22, 20174 votes

item 3078 and item 3814 still count as well, I'd say.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 22, 20173 votes

I was going to include those, as well as item 3025 , However, triforce and Iceborn are SOOOOO specific to Corki Ezreal that I felt like they weren't worth mentioning. Side note that there was a point Lucian built triforce many many moons ago. Edge of night I decided to not include because the only reason it saw play on any ADCs was because of how good the full lethality combo was for a couple of patches, as well as the fact that it actively turned adc's away from a sustained damage output source

ThefrostyvikingJul 22, 20172 votes

marksmen dont build item 3022 item 3156 item 3053 anymore.

Unless said marksman is a bit clueless i think, i mean, the barrier needs you to stack MR to be truly effective but as a marksman you won't build that much, same reasons divers don't really buíld the item either.

Lifesteal is kinda overshadowed by how easily grevious wounds is obtained no? And you need at least 3 crit items to make it effective anyway.....except draven and DD-

Merc boots are weak these days, if you get hit by CC you are most likely dead whatever happens, ninja tabi is.....really strong but that goes for everyone.

nm1010Jul 22, 20171 votes

Frozen mallet Kalista is one of the top picks in lck from what I've heard. Maw and steraks are both fine defensive items in specific scenarios.

ThefrostyvikingJul 22, 20171 votes

Kalista is a champ with so many issue's gamehealth wise, the moment she´s good she´s immediately busted.

Kinda like Azir there. but suffice to say that her very base playstyle is immensely frustrating for the opponents already and mallet is supposed to make that worse.

And where did you get the idea that steraks is still good? O_O You need a ton of bonus health to make it work after its rework, i don't know a single marksman that would build it.

Maw is too expensive and has too many limitations to be worth anything after it's changes for marksmen too.

you need to lose a ton of health for it to give anything.
Barrier needs a lot of bonus mr to be more than like 300.
By the time you get the item you´d die from whatever magic that was gona kill you anyway in 9 outa 10 cases because 300 is barely anything.

And given the stats it offers it's also expensive, which is why most assassins who build the item tend to just grab hexdrinker early then go on with damage, because the compete item isn't really good or cost effective.

nm1010Jul 22, 20172 votes

And where did you get the idea that steraks is still good? O_O You need a ton of bonus health to make it work after its rework, i don't know a single marksman that would build it.

Does it not work with it's own hp? 400 hp on an item with 300 damage shield and some ad isn't too bad.

you need to lose a ton of health for it to give anything.

It's kind of the idea, it stops you from dying to lots of ap damage.

Barrier needs a lot of bonus mr to be more than like 300.

I see it fairly frequently by itself, but I was thinking it would work well with a mercurial + maw vs high ap damage.

By the time you get the item you´d die from whatever magic that was gona kill you anyway in 9 outa 10 cases because 300 is barely anything.

Son if you think 345 extra life + resistances + its buff it gives is a low amount of defenses I don't know what kind of defensive option you want.

And given the stats it offers it's also expensive, which is why most assassins who build the item tend to just grab hexdrinker early then go on with damage

As an assassin player I actually tend to not finish it because I want to kill the adc in the mid game and a magic shield doesn't help me with that. If I was against like 3-4 ap I would be finishing my maw.

ThefrostyvikingJul 22, 20171 votes

I used to build old sterak for it's 1k barrier and it was often barely enough, you tell me that a 300 one will keep me alive*? x)

300 is like a thunderlord+luden proc by the time you have it.

And 50 armor or MR is indeed worth a lot if you don't have any, but it's immediately negated once your assailant stacks a bit more damage, your barriers and resistance won't be enough and you can't build more of it to any noticeable effect.

This is why marksmen stack stuff like deaths dance, phantom dancer and ninja tabi x)

And have their tanks build items like nights vow.

ExecutionerJul 22, 20171 votes

Funny thing, they are still barely getting by with those items XD

ThefrostyvikingJul 22, 20172 votes

Well yes and no.

Either it's barely enough or it's far too much depending on matchups and other things.

It's frustrating for both sides really, marksmen can't survive without those items and yet if they get slightly ahead or have good matchups they instead turn oppressive and strong with them.

CowseedJul 22, 20178 votes

Ashe item 3075

SlythionJul 22, 20177 votes

Riot delayed Assassin damage and then made it so adc's take delayed damage. That's quite a lot of guaranteed delayed damage for a class of champions designed to damage champions over time if you ask me

Not to mention all the increased shields and lifesteal thrown in as well.

Not only did Riot double down on the subtle adc buffs, but they tripled and even quadrupled the different defensive capabilities this class of champions can easily obtain.

Adc's have the strongest defensive arsenal I've seen in my time playing league, which isn't a supppper long time, but still.

ExecutionerJul 22, 20172 votes

strongest defensive arsenal? Nice try there buddy.

SlythionJul 22, 20174 votes

I don't even know what you mean by that.

They have so more access to damage reduction, heals, shields, and delayed damage than I've seen in any previous season. Do you disagree?

If you do you should maybe provide a counter argument instead of...whatever that was?

ExecutionerJul 22, 20171 votes

delay damage? Only 30% over 3 seconds. That's not jack shit. I will take the full damage in 3 seconds, however I have the lifesteal so I would be gaining just a little bit. Does it seem broken on paper? Yes. In game? Feels like nothing. Nothing gives them heals, unless you are talking about lifesteal then well 3 items.

Shields, only two items give out shields. Maw of Malmortius, and Blood Thrister. No adc really buys Maw unless its a really heavy set of AP. Though the shield only blocks magic damage, not phyiscal. Blood Thrister shield goes down in you are not attack or attacking in 25 seconds.

On your point about the previous seasons, I dont disagree. It's true as a matter of fact. However that doesn't mean everyone else got my items to play around with. Same thing with runes and masteries since I know you are thinking about those as well.

The truth has been spoken! Downvote me :D

SlythionJul 23, 20172 votes

I'm only downvoting you because you didn't speak the truth:

ADC's take 12% reduced total damage, and that total damage is delayed by 30% over 3 seconds. How can you think that's an ok thing when ADC's have spent 6 seasons being balanced around the ability to be bursted. ADC's as a class are built around sustained fights, and when you give them properties to guarantee a sustained fight then you lose the opportunity to target the class' core weakness: burst.

Not only that, but those champions who were dedicated to bursting adcs have all been forced to have delayed damage as well.

Even on top of that you completely failed to acknowledge the incredible amount of shields and healing that is now prevalent in the game for adcs, especially with the ultra-buffed support items.

Over all of this they still have the advantage of range as well as their usual lifesteal.

How can you not say that adc's have access to more defensive properties than ever before. I never said all of the defensive properties came from solely the adcs, I'm saying there is more defensive shit in the game for adcs (not just *from them) than ever before.

You simply don't speak the truth, you speak part of the truth that ensures a different conclusion can be drawn from you incomplete summary of the game's balance around adcs

ExecutionerJul 23, 20171 votes

The shields and heals are coming from the support are going to the team, not just the adc. Does it look like the adc seems more overbearing? Yes they look overbearing because of the support items, and the masteries. However everything wants to kill them, and supports felt underwhelming before. Now they are feel like they are making a difference in team fights. However no one looks at them. They only look at where the heals and shields are going to, the ADC, or the team mates. However fuck them, gotta look at the adc! The one doing all the dps late game.

GA, maw were not given to the ADC to use. They were for all AD related champs to use. Assassins, brusiers, fighters, and adc to use. The only reason people bitch about GA and Maw being this so called ADC use it item is because someone bought it on them that they disliked. Items countering me!? Die Heathen!

I simply dont speak the truth? You're right, what am I a lowly adc main that doesn't speak the truth. The games balance around the ADC? It is, but quite. It's the position of bot lane that holds the key to the game. Why? Because the turret doesn't have a shield, they have a dragon spawning, and they have two champions down there compared to the other lanes with one champion. People going to bot lane with a teleport for a 5 main or 4 main. Is the game balanced around ADC? It is, only because everyone keeps putting so much emphasis on bot lane. Why do you think they have rift herald? To give bot lane less pressure and top lane something. Instead it's still this big ole fucking island anyways. Edit: Forgot to mention those shields dont come offline till 5 minutes on turrets.

The advantage of range is in every game, and any mage that is ranged as well.

The usual lifesteal is made to where it is because of warlords which procs once till it recharges, and crit that makes lifesteal look so good.

Edit: You can still burst them.

SlythionJul 23, 20172 votes

this entire comment was excuses for why adc's have these defensive options yet my comment was about how they do...you've provided nothing to this discussion but excuses.

It doesn't matter if the whole team recieves the shield. A 700hp shield is more valuable and important on the ADC than it is on the Rammus, and that 700hp shield is still defensive stats for the adc. You're whole "well the whole team gets it, not just the adc" argument means literally nothing to the discussion.
As for support items in general. Cool? Supports became incredibly influential without ADC's receiving any compensation nerf, sounds fair to me :^) (and once again, you just stated a reason for why these defensive properties are available despite that not being the discussion)
Your argument about GA and Maw isn't even relevant either. No one cares what the items are meant for, the fact is that they provide incredible defensive stats for adcs. Saying that people only complain about those items because an adc used it is literally the point. ADC's have a lot of viable defensive items for a class that's not supposed to have defensive stats.
Didn't need to hear how bot lane is the most important lane. Everyone already knows it? I never even said that the game is balanced around bot lane, I said adc's were balanced around the ability to be burst (as that was their weakness) which has become significantly harder to do. Idk how you misinterpreted that but uh...just another irrelevant point you made I guess :/
Don't care that the advantage of ranged exists in every ranged champion, we are talking about adc's and I was stating all of their advantages (including ones they've always had)...I'm honestly so confused how you've gotten so far off track. What kind of justification is that anyways, "it's ok to add defensive properties to adcs because they've already had X (inserts ranged or any other defensive advantage here) from the get go"
Cool, so we both agree that lifesteal is quite easy to obtain in large amounts. You just need crit and 1 lifesteal item...pretty easy to get

You can still burst them.

ok? And juggernauts were still able to die back in the juggernaut meta. The argument is that it's significantly harder to burst adcs now, much harder in previous seasons, not that it was impossible

Your entire comment completely missed the point of the discussion...

Karn BishopJul 22, 20176 votes

I used to be against all adc defensive itemization but the more i think about it the more i realize that the main problem is not adc defensive itemization it is ADC itemization that lets them build into unstoppable 1v1 duelist champions that can out perform the best duelists in the game such as Jax Fiora , in short i believe that items that grant duelist stats should not exist and such things should only be on a champions abilities/passives.

Such items existing downgrade the effectiveness of picking a jax or fiora vs a draven, lucian, vayne which is silly because why should they be able to transform themselves into duelists with 1 or 2 items?

In short item 3046 item 3812 item 3072 need to be changed/removed to prevent this from happening.

SnowplosionJul 22, 20176 votes

Because item 3102 mages item 3157 have item 3027 none item 3116 of those item 3174 types item 3048 of items item 3030 .

1025kiluJul 22, 201710 votes

item 3174 Is not a mage item, it is a support item item 3003 into item 3040 takes an absurd amount of time to transform if you don't have heavily spammable abilities item 3116 Is a niche item built on mainly AurelionSol Mordekaiser and on occasion Malzahar
item 3030 is an item that I don't see many champions building as an item item 3027 is a decent item that takes 10 min to stack meaning that if you don't buy it first item it'll take too long and when you build a component you either have Low damage ( item 3010 ) or low mana ( item 1026 ) making it vastly inferior to item 3165 on most champions item 3157 is an item that has most of its power budget in the active item 3102 is the only item here that you are correct on

SnowplosionJul 22, 20173 votes

You're right about Athene's. I forgot the changes they made to it. Still pretty reliable on mid, mage supports like Karma and Lulu in my opinion.

NyarlathοtepJul 22, 20174 votes

None of them have dmg reduction or delay dmg in any way or shape. Also: item 3102 Requires you to be out of combat in order for the passive to recharge. item 3157 Yes the active is truly awesome. BUT. It also stuns you. And most of the times its used as a way to let your cds recharge. Of course this applies to the enemy too. item 3027 Which takes a bit of time to shine. And you need to be on the frontline to maximize its effects. And even then it cant compare to lifesteal that adcs abuse. Oh did i mention that it screws you early on? item 3116 Are you serious now? This item is garbage. The only reason you might EVEN consider the chance of buying it is when you have to buy item 3151 or/and when the enemy has champs that rely on movement speed buffs. item 3174 I'm starting to think that you are trolling. This item is for supps. Terrible for dps mages. Hell the only supps i can think of that can even buy it are Sona and Karma . And Ivern . item 3040 Again as with item 3027 takes a while t-. Actually takes a lot of time to charge. Destroys your lane presences. A small pool of champs usually even buy it. And even when it transforms , it still has restrictions. Its active costs 20% of max mana to activate WITH an cd of 120 sec. And lastly item 3030 doesn't completely destroy your lane presence. The active is decent. Unfortunately most mages prefer cdr with much more useful passive-actives, only battlemages buy it since this item requires you to be in the frontline. And lastly this item and item 3027 share the same passive which means that you cant stack them to increase your selfsustain, unlike lifesteal.

So all in all you can compare adcs itemazation with mages. Adcs, in the item department, outstat the mages by a long shot.

Sad TyrantJul 22, 20171 votes

unfortunately if you want to get even semi good at Ryze, you need Rylai's

GayFluffyUnicornJul 22, 20174 votes

Rylai's on ryze? What? Noone is building that garbage.

hhaavviikkJul 22, 20174 votes

I remember the protect the kog comps, where you dedicated your entire team to protecting him because he couldn't get a bunch of armor/mr/health/shields/damagereduction with damage added to it. I miss those times