Make Flat armor pen apply first...

That's a smart change. So Riot will never do it.

[{quoted}](name=bbQ s,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mY65vQuf,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-02-14T15:38:58.345+0000)

The issue i could see rising with this, is that last whisper items will lose effectiveness against armored targets. If someone has for example, 100 armor and you have let's say 80 lethality, the amount of bonus armor will be reduced to 20. Now if you have a LW item you will ignore 45% of that armor which means you will ignore only 9 armor. It's clear it would be an issue if lethality reduces LW effectiveness. If you want flat pen to be applied first you have to remove the "bonus" on LW items, making it work against base armor as well.

No we don't have to do shit for compensation, the whole point of the trade is to reduce the effectiveness of stacking LW and lethality.

You won't reasonably ever have more than 45-50 Lethality. Each Lethality item is 15 except Ghostblade which is 20. And this change prevents Lethality from being cancer to tanky targets.

AND LETHALITY IS SUPPOSED TO LOWER PERCENT ARMOR PENETRATION. THAT IS THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT. IF YOU BUILD FLAT, YOU SHOULDN'T BE GOOD AGAINST TANKS.

250-50=200 200-45% of 200=110

As opposed to

250-45% of 250=112.5 112.5-50=72.5

For an actual example: Level 18 Poppy with standard runes and the items of Sunfire/Armor boots/Iceborn/GA/Thornmail or Deadman's will have 462.875 armor (with Thornmail instead of Deadman's) or 405.375 armor (with Deadman's instead) at 100% health (counting W passive).

Full Lethality runes (marks and quints) and TLD path for the Lethality mastery and full Lethality build (GB/DB/EON) gives 82.5 Lethality.

If Lethality was counted first, Poppy would have 386.775 (Thornmail)/329.275 (Deadman's) Armor after Lethality, and then 252.5375 (Thornmail)/220.92625 (Deadman's) after LDR.

With Lethality being second the way it is now, Poppy would have 211.90625 (Thorn)/180.28125 (DP) armor after both Lethality and LDR was calculated.

And this isn't even counting Cleaver. Which literally fucking reduces her Thornmail version from 462.875 to 135.531875 since Lethality goes before %Pen, as opposed to 172.86575. And Deadman's version from 405.375 to 113.394375 as opposed to 150.519375.

thats 100 bonus armor LW goes through all armor and it is very rarely anyone would ever build 4 lethality items seeing as there are only 3.

I need to make an important point.

The ones buying Lethality in the first place don't rely on autoattacks.

Lethality + Cleaver + Last Whisper (LDR or MR) rips through even a full tank's armor easily. That + AD or bonus AD scaling abilities from said caster and tanks get torn apart.

If they had to rely on autos, what you said would be true. But they don't.

I think that falls on the sustain difference between tanks and burst. We have champions like who have burst like they should, but at the same time, they can also rapidly fire off abilities which is where lethality breaks them.

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I forgot to add some math, on a 300 armor target (of which 200 is bonus armor) Current formula with LW upgrade and 40 Lethality would reduce that 300 armor to 190. Making Lethality apply first you would hvae 204 armor...

14 armor is 14 armor... Its honestly the nerf lethality needs without having to nerf it against squishes. The numbers get even better (for tanks) when you stack last wispeor and black cleaver.

Assuming the champion has 100 base armor is very, very generous. Most champions, even tanks, usually have anywhere from 80-95 base armor, with some super lows like shen and sion who are stuck in the 70s with their base armor.

Finally someones whos math I BELEIVE.

400 armor "THEY DEAL TRUE DAMAGE TO ME BECAUSE PERCENTAGES" bullshit

[{quoted}](name=FK LANA,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mY65vQuf,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-02-14T17:22:43.987+0000)

It was like this in season 2 and before that. Last Whisper was a much better item in season 3 because of it. Oh man, how I miss the old whisper and how broken it would be nowadays...

Well they changed it because last whisperer had a lower amount, and armor pen was weaker as a stat. They honstly needed to buff armor pen back in S1 and S2. Now they have two clear paths for armorpen, lethality and % penetration, and the overlap is what makes them too strong. They could now revert it to reduce overlap.

Well, in S3(after the league of cleavers) and 4, Brutalizer/yomuu's into LW into BC was the standart on any ad-caster, and Ad-assasins like Zed, Kah, Talon, Riven Jayve and Rengar were pretty dominant even though they didn't recive any direct buffs, but rather multiple nerfs till they finally were somewhat in line. The fact that going for the pen built on assasins also enabled their damage vs tanky opponents and prettymuch denyed reactionary defensive items from their main targets caused quite some balance issues and also led to carries picking up warmongs as defensive item as the raw hp worked well while armor was near usless vs assasins.

You're supposed to be near useless against tanks if you build a ton of flat instead of crit/attack speed, assuming both have LDR.

Lethality is flat armor penetration. Armor PENETRATION cannot reduce below 0. Only armor REDUCTION can reduce to 0 or below.

So you're saying that flat pen applies after 45% reduction from LW and 30% from cleaver???

Yes. In earlier seasons, it was flat and then percentage, but this made both flat and percentage penetration underwhelming stats; the effectiveness of Void Staff, Black Cleaver, Last Whisper et al was reduced by your runes/flat pen items, and flat pen was negated by very little armour unless you had % pen (which as we just mentioned also felt bad to build). It doesn't make sense that Void Staff should be worth less the more flat magic pen you have (and you probably have 30 magic pen in most games before you build Void Staff these days).

Do ADCs I delete have -ve armor then when I somehow manage to stack 83 lethality + cleaver?

No, penetration can only reduce armour and magic resistance to zero, but not below it (excess penetration is wasted).

Also worth noting that there are extremely few sources of flat reduction in the game (as far as I know there's only Amumu's passive and Wit's End). These are the only things that can reduce your MR below zero. There are no sources of flat armour reduction Nasus E exists and I am dumb.

This is by the way one of the reasons why Abyssal Scepter before it's rework was so OP: It was reduction, so you could quite easily reduce someone below 0 MR while gaining MR yourself. If a mid lane mage took magic pen reds, sorc shoes and abyssal they would deal huge amounts of damage to you. The opponent mid laner had to build Abyssal to answer it because you gain huge amounts of damage while attacking someone with negative MR