This Kayle nerf is Disgusting

HadesBlades··111 votes·9,943 views
4/5 PBE Update

For a champion that lacks engage tools/disengage tools, and takes well over 2 items to be super sufficient the nerf on PBE is actually horrible for her early and late game. Removing a potential 15% armor shred hurts her way more since it is so easy to stack armor items. She blatantly doesn't need this nerf, and isn't close to being in the sated meta since others naturally outclass her earlier. Even if this is just testing that is a super harsh nerf on her.

With you guys introducing champion reworks like taric even her ult will feel outclassed. I just feel like she is being pushed under the rug very hard now.

141 Comments

TheOvermind45 votes

Why do you bring up the "engage disengage kit" ?? Kayle is a carry , she sits back and whacks people to death, she is not an initiator nor a support like janna to have disengage. Kayle's kit is outdated and is also potentially overloaded hence and that's probably why riot is thinkign towards nerfing her.

rR1LwpaR5q6 votes

It's not overloaded. It does have hidden power from Penetration / Fervor though. That combination made her early game much much stronger than before, and it looks like its the focus of the nerf.

OyddAWqJ5r5 votes

Aka overloaded. As in she has too many things going for her thus why those many things are undertuned in order to create a balanced overloaded champion.

Same concept as Lee Sin really.

Narasimha6 votes

Same concept as Lee Sin really.

Just to jump in, there is a key difference. As much as we love to hate on him, it IS a fact that Lee has a fairly high skill cap. You can't just pick him up and play him like a pro. It's a bit more fair to give more tools to these kind of champions, because you generally have to work to get the most of them.

Kayle on the other hand, has a lower skill floor and skill ceiling. All of her abilities are point and click, with a good chunk of her damage coming from her autoattacks. She isn't a mechanically intense champion in the slightest. This is an issue because it means she can be 'overloaded' while also being easy to use.

SithesisLord3 votes

That´s like saying every single ADC isn´t mechanically intense, despite the role being recognized as one of the most mechanically intense ones.

So yeah, Kayle is mechanically intense, just not in the way you think. You can´t kite or orb walk or correctly time your ult? You die. That 2/2.5/3 second invulnerability isn´t going to be enough to make up for the lack of kiting/orb-walking skill, which, be shocked, is a requirement to be good with any ADC.

Also, in comparison to Lee Sin, Kayle is underloaded at best. She's slow, squishy, vulnerable to ganks, only a real threat after 3 full items, one of those being Zerker's Greaves which gives her AS but does little to decrease her susceptability to ganks.

And let´s not even get started that, in this cancerous as hell top lane meta, where tanks build Sterak's, DMP and tank a 6-item ADC+Turret aggro, where Ekko build builds Sunfire and outdamages a Lich Bane Fizz, she's the only one who can deal with them and make them actually stay top lane so she doesn´t bring down two turrets with just a Stinger.

I would much rather have them reduce her passive ArReduction rather than outright remove it. Have it only stack up to 10% and move the 5% into the MR reduction. Despite all that and being a biproduct of the meta, she's only strong because of Fervor and Guinsoo's.

Riot isn´t nerfing the problem, that being the top lane meta. Riot's nerfing the ingame SOLUTION to said problem. Much like they´re nerfing IBG in the Spellblade rather than just make it melee only, as they should be doing, so that Ezreal stops abusing it.

Much like they completely butchered Soraka's kit simply because of her heal spambot status and being supposedly cancerous. Still think healers should have HP scalling heals, rather than AP scalling heals.

Anyway, back to Kayle. You´ll rarely see a Kayle using ranged to stack Rageblade. She´ll stack it in melee mode because it grants 2 stacks. On some occasions it´s the same for Fervor. Again, she isn´t the issue, but double stacking speeds is.

Sated is a problem nowadays on, surprise surprise, melee champions, because the phantom hit is unchanged. Guinsoo's is a problem and therefore making Kayle, Xin, Yi, Jax, Trynd and once, Irelia a problem because of the 2 stacks for melee. Fervor is the same issue as Guinsoo.

How should Riot be solving this?

Nerf Guinsoo's. How?

Ranged AND Melee champions now only get one stack. Reduce AD/AP/AS per stack to 2, 2 and 6%, respectively. Guinsoo's Rage: Deals 15(+10% Bonus AD)(+5% AP) as opposed to the current 20(+15% Bonus AD)(+7.5% AP)

Next, move on to Fervor.

Reduce stacks to 6. Reduce damage by 2, maybe 3 or 4 points. Ranged, melee and abilites now only grant one stack.

Onto Sated next.

Melee and ranged only proc phantom hit on the 4th AA. Reduce magic on hit damage to 20 on normal Devourer. Totalling 50 on Sated.

Kayle did need a nerf yes. But they´re nerfing her the wrong way and not even addressing considerably more urgent balance problems first.

Rossendale39 votes

RIP resist-shredder Kayle.

Kayle item 3071 item 3091 item 3153

RIP any AD Kayle builds for that matter. Thanks for killing off half of a formerly-versatile champion's build paths Rito.

HadesBlades9 votes

I mean she can be really tank shredder worthy but she isn't even decent in this sated meta. She takes too long to stack up itemization wise and has horrible engage/disengage kit. It mean to get those 3 items alone would be 25mins-30mins into the game and by then its over with how the game runs nowadays

Ailady2 votes

this is why i wanted a attack speed passive on E like kogmaw or some melee champions does, she has to build so much to be viable smh...

Apocalypsic23 votes

Kayle kind of just needs a rework. A lot of champs at this point do. The game is evolving (forcefully) so quickly that its throwing all sorts of balance out of whack.

I say rework because I know they'll never bring anything like season 4 and 5 back.

ModAcademy Kayn16 votes

But... doesn't she do magic damage? How is this affecting her as bad as it does?

Yeah, checked the wiki, all she does is magic damage. All this is going to do is hurt her normal autos...

Sightless668 votes

She tends to build a rageblade and a lot of attack speed, which by itself gives her a decent physical damage output. However, that's not even the most important part. Resistance shredding increases the value of all sources of damage you have on your team, so she's losing the value from all the extra physical damage her teammates would have been doing. That's a pretty significant amount to lose. Even the magic resist shredding gets more benefit from her teammates than it actually gets from her in most situations.

RisenDarkKnight5 votes

With her current build she does 36% physical 64% magical, but kayle has always been flexible in that you could chose to build AD items if you wanted. Her Q has a 100% ad ratio, and she is a very autoattack focused champion. With this nerf they are basically eliminating her AD playstyle basically forcing her to go AP, but the AP playstyle was what they are trying to nerf not the AD (very few people go AD kayle anymore).

rR1LwpaR5q2 votes

A third of her damage is AD. Between Fervor and Rageblade / QSS item and gunblade.

You're effectively killing her early and lategame with this nerf. The pen loss also effects her team. Massive DPS nerf.

Only Play Darius13 votes

To be fair she stomps melee toplaners too hard, this is probably to make it easier for them to build against her damage early game.

Devack The Holy4 votes

Graves Vayne

Where are their nerfs, according to your logic?

Only Play Darius3 votes

They need nerfs too, just that Riot seems to have some boner for ADC's and wont touch them.

Also you could at least spam armor against ADC's. There's no way to build against Kayle.

Devack The Holy3 votes

Try spamming armor against a Graves who can zone you away from farm if you're melee, or against Vayne's %health true damage.

Spaceman5pff2 votes

I mean fuck dude, I played Taric top vs a graves, and had to give up a couple cs bc of the range issue but it isn't as big a deal as you make it out to be.

Frius12 votes

kayle getting cancered cause guinsoo item gg

AnonymousPoro5 votes

{quoted}

kayle getting cancered cause guinsoo item gg

JUSTNERFGUISOOSRITOOMG

Seriously though, this has big Riot's pattern for years now. Sejuani got nerfed heard for being too strong with Cinderhulk, then Cinder got nerfed, Elise's got nerfed for being too strong with Runic Echoes, then Runic Echoes got nerfed, and now Kayle's getting nerfed because of Guisoos being too strong. Doesn't even surprise me anymore.

Aazzlano10 votes

Evelynn is the worst victim of this.

DFG caused her Ult to lose HALF its scaling AND turned from Max HP% to Current HP% and her E to become Physical. Then they removed DFG. And then nerfed her Q multiple times after for good measure.

Then Runeglaive comes, and they nerf her again. Including nerfing her W, her only skill left unnerfed until that point, TWICE. Then they remove Runeglaive.

Now we have Runic Echoes, which is like 1/4th as good of an item as Runeglaive was on her, and that gets nerfed too.

And with the random Kayle nerf, I expect another Evelynn nerf sometime soon too sadly. Even though she is terrible right now.

Just Shimakaze11 votes

Don't mean to burst your bubble but kayle's is kind of really strong as it is, and deserves a nerf.

Smitty Manjensen10 votes

How is she bad now when she has a 54% win rate? She's very strong, can't say if this nerf is what she needed but she did need one.

Meep Man9 votes

Well, Kayle is doing the opposite of bad right now though so... there's that.

flibitydoo2 votes

I feel like OP is trying to portray Kayle as a weak champion because she's unpopular right now

even though Kayle is strong, if not broken with Guinsoos, and she's actually unpopular because her kit by design is simple and boring (boring as in the coolest part of her kit: her ult, is very unsatisfying to use, and the rest of her kit is simply rightclick and watch).

TotalJerk7 votes

She's been stealth OP top lane for a while. My main concern here is that they're shitting on Kayle Jungle and Kayle Mid again because of her actions in top lane.

Zedex7 votes

Can you honestly say anyone enjoys playing against Kayle unless they outrange her? Her E and Q leave little room for defense unless you blatantly outrange her. She has a heal and a invulnerability on top of that too, does she really need to shred all of your defenses so theres nothing you can do if she get ahead early?

LemurMonster2 votes

I know I dont. obnoxious to deal with, with that heal among other thing in her kit.. She is like a Teemo 2.0 with her Q that does as much as his but it slows very heavy with a long duration & with a E similar to his can kill you quick right after with no escape & no one like champs that cant die or take no damage really.

charcharmunro6 votes

Kayle's been really quite strong for a fair while now, especially toplane. So... It's not like it's a total gutting.

Bisaknosp6 votes

am i the only one that thinks champions like Ekko Graves Jax Leblanc Lux MasterYi and Yasuo (mainly his stupid early game) are much bigger problems?

Ariel the Cruel6 votes

Gotta make sure she doesn't out-shine Taric's new ult. ;p

FreshAsFebreze5 votes

Where did riot get the idea to nerf Kayle? Who the hell plays Kayle? This nerf is more random than the Big Bang.

Gotted4 votes

Yeah this is a pretty bad direction. I'm really not okay with this nerf.

5512024 votes

Blame those guys spamming her top lane, she is getting nerfed because she is dominating top laners, she must be just mid. Those nerfs are perfect.

crippler384 votes

to be fair, taric's ult has a big delay on it compared to kayle's as the trade off for being on multiple people, personally though maybe they didn't want it so she could shred off over 40% of someone's armor (cleaver is like 25 and her passive is (soon to be was) 25% right?) I don't know what else could be the reason besides they don't want her benefiting from all the adc items so easily and buffing up all the ad damage since ads are strong right now, just what I'm GUESSING at their reasoning is though.

Vorazun2 votes

15% at Max stacks, both armor and magic resist, not 25%

SanKakU4 votes

Oh wow, that would suck a lot! Puts a huge dent in her ability to support and jungle.

Cenobite Azaziel3 votes

"Oh my god! A viable hybrid kit! Remove anything that benefits AD" Yay... it cinderhulk all over again. It's devourer all over again. Nerf 5AD and after that nerf devourer.

Jiharu3 votes

no, it's the hybrid onhit style they are trying to hit. builds like item 3124 item 3115 item 3153 were nerfed hard but ad builds like item 3031 item 3085 item 3142 item 3147 get all the stats from items while the previous one abused her passive.

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Keti3 votes

Kayle's pretty overpowered right now so this comes as no surprise. She's maintained like a 55% winrate over the last several patches in high elo. to make matters worse she's low counterplay so once she gets big you just lose.

HadesBlades2 votes

She also has very low play rate coupled with her winrate skyrocketing for those that actually dedicate time to play her. she has about a 2.4% playrate with barely a 54% winrate which is actually pretty decent overall considering her playerbase is so low.

Keti3 votes

she ranks kinda below average in playerbase average games, because quite a few people have picked her up for the freelo she is.

I just wish they'd give her a mini rework. her E is such a problem skill that has no weaknesses once you hit 35% cdr.

Unstoppable Monk2 votes

Kayle Pickers vs. Kayle Players. Although, I suppose most people don't know how to build items in order to be effective on her. Or the same people that are bad at using Tryndamere are playing her too much. >_>

She's been sleeper-busted for a while in S6. She's just too boring to play all the time and there's a few strong champions in the meta that keep her from being outright spammed.

WadeWilson13373 votes

This nerf is not meant for Jungle Kayle; it is meant for top lane Kayle, the role where she is performing best in. Just because 6 months ago Kayle was god tier in the jungle and some people started playing it, does not mean they have to have all future balance changes around that role.

Kayle is becoming the new Quinn of top lane that counters basically the entire meta other than Tryndamere and Ekko, Ekko being the most op top laner as of 6.7 who will likely be banned most games. Frankly, this nerf isnt even that big of a deal as Kayles damage is for the most part magic damage. Sure the armor shred is nice for her team, but lets be real here. Should a champion REALLY shred 15% Magic Resist AND Armor? While Amumu and Fiddlesticks justs shred a flat amount in a meta where people look for an excuse to build a mr item?

If youre really a Kayle fan, i would be happy they did this rather than hitting her E or even her Q. Hell, you should kiss Riot's feet for not nerfing Rageblade or Fervor of Battle at this point.

This Kayle nerf is not "disgusting", its simply removing some utility from a late game hypercarry who already boasts some of the greatest teamfight potential in game.

GaleWinUnleashed2 votes

Kayle's ult is FAR better than Taric's at negating an assassin's burst. Taric's takes much more timing and a certain amount of foresight to be effective.

Except when it comes to Zed. Taric's ult screws Zed's ult pretty easily.

HadesBlades2 votes

I don't think you need to worry about assassins and their burst considering most reworked champions and newer champion kits promote disengage and safe playing instead of dive all in comps like malphite and amumu. Along with itemization and zed nerfs most asssassins aren't even that great at what they do with maybe a small exception of Leblanc.

But if you compare taric's ult and kayle's ult, taric at least has more team presence and is far more benefical mid and late game rather then early.

UnderscorBunnies2 votes

Let's keep in mind that it's just testing, and that unless you're building a slightly off meta choice of AD Kayle, it won't affect your damage all that much.

Oksanaandjoy3 votes

Support Kayle relies on the shred. She takes a long time to build items (as you need gold and sightstone items before building your main items). This shred becomes part of her utility to aggressively support the ADC. She is being quite limited without it.

I'd almost rather see them take off the MR shred for this reason, but don't think either nerf is necessary.

The Bíg Ticket2 votes

You are right...she only has a 54% winrate in toplane which is the 2nd highest out of all toplaners. Pls don't nerf ranged champs who get a free laning phase 95% of the time.

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