Solution To The Mage Support Issue!

Doaenel·Mar 12, 2017·25 votes·3,118 views

Quite simple, make it so instead of gaining gold after damaging an enemy with FQC/STE, make it so you get gold after speeding up/healing/shielding an ally, something like Max of 3 charges, gain a charge every 10 seconds, gain 15 gold after using a charge (charges expend after using speedups/heals/shields on allies) with the cd reducing and gold increasing after every upgrade from spell thiefs edge

This would make sure there wouldnt e anymore of these annoying ''mage supports'' that get 1 item (FQC) and get full dmg, provide 0 utility, and sit there for the sole purpose of damage, it would also reduce damage creep and increase incentive to pick legitimate supports that actually support their team

88 Comments

CalabokMar 12, 201710 votes

there is no issue. get real

DoaenelMar 12, 201715 votes

{quoted}

there is no issue. get real

You dont understand league and what it is meant to represent if you think this, there are many huge issues

NymzoMar 12, 201713 votes

He's a Brand main, don't bother.

An Undead bratMar 13, 20171 votes

At least your champion isn't getting shit on because of them being played support :')

NymzoMar 13, 20171 votes

Nobody asked for them to be played as a support either. I wish they could be back in mid lane and leave us.

An Undead bratMar 13, 20171 votes

Tell that to the thousands of people playing her there, for some reason they tend to disagree.

NymzoMar 13, 20172 votes

That's just people abusing flavor of the month champs, nothing new.

Or mid laners being autofilled that want a comfort pick.

manbearswineMar 12, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tilted Hecarim,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEUvgbMV,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-03-12T19:04:09.169+0000)

You dont understand league and what it is meant to represent if you think this,

No, you don't, he's actually right.

there are many huge issues

Sure, but this ain't one of them.

NymzoMar 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

No, you don't, he's actually right.

Sure, but this ain't one of them.

When 4 champions can outclass an entire roster of a role, I think there's a problem.

It has to say something when a professional team has to use the combination of 2 marksman, when the one being the support was never designed to be a support, in order to beat Zyra .

manbearswineMar 12, 20174 votes

{quoted}

When 4 champions can outclass an entire roster of a role, I think there's a problem.

Aside from the fact that's generally the case for every role at any given time(and I agree that it's a problem, I just don't see what it has to do with mage supports specifically), which 4 champions are we talking about anyway?

It has to say something when a professional team has to use the combination of 2 marksman, when the one being the support was never designed to be a support, in order to beat .

Not really lol, all it says is that miss fortune's kit counters zyra's well.

NymzoMar 12, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Aside from the fact that's generally the case for every role at any given time(and I agree that it's a problem, I just don't see what it has to do with mage supports specifically),

Because they were not designed to be supports, they were designed to be mages.

That would be like if fighters would have as much as burst assasins, or if tanks would do as much damage as juggernauts: they would overshadow the purpose of a class while also keeping theirs.

which 4 champions are we talking about anyway?

Zyra , , Velkoz and Malzahar .

Not really lol, all it says is that miss fortune's kit counters zyra's well.

All it says is that all the supports available, whatever they are an enchanter, a disrupter or tank support are fucking bad against an immobile mage at bot lane when a f*cking marksman can do their job better than them.

And yes I do know that Nami was used against Zyra but that was not because she counters her, it's because she has enough tools to be able to make her adc and her be able to survive the lane.

manbearswineMar 12, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Because they were not designed to be supports, they were designed to be mages.

These two aren't contradictory you know, they are mages played in the support role, like tanks are played as supports, or zilean(a support) played mid lane.

That would be like if fighters would have as much as burst assasins, or if tanks would do as much damage as juggernauts: they would overshadow the purpose of a class while also keeping theirs.

, , and .

Nope, everyone knows that the strongest supports are: Vladimir Twitch MasterYi Shyvana

You're just pulling this straight out of your ass, according to http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/picksandbans.php?season=S7&tournament=ALL&patch=7.4. the most contested supports are malz>karma>lulu>zyra>kench, with lulu and karma significantly more prominent(but comparable to malz), so if anything utility supports are overshadowing others.

And if we go by the great winrate god in the sky, according to champion gg the highest winrates in the support role belongs to sion(low pickrate, can be ignored I guess)>sona>sorcyka>lulu>blitz, with all of the champions you've mentioned being <50% winrate, aside from brand, who is 50.28%.

All it says is that all the supports available, whatever they are an enchanter, a disrupter or tank support are fucking bad against an immobile mage at bot lane when a f*cking marksman can do their job better than them.

No, in case you haven't noticed mf was specifically aimed at zyra, and wasn't picked into anything else, showing clearly that unless it's specifically zyra they were facing, other supports were better(now they are just plain better, even if they are played into zyra).

And yes I do know that Nami was used against Zyra but that was not because she counters her, it's because she has enough tools to be able to make her adc and her be able to survive the lane.

Right now most things are used against zyra with general success, both in competitive and solo q.

NymzoMar 13, 20172 votes

{quoted}

These two aren't contradictory you know, they are mages played in the support role, like tanks are played as supports, or zilean(a support) played mid lane.

You know what I mean: ap ''supports'' mages, don't try to be smart.

Nope, everyone knows that the strongest supports are:

You're just pulling this straight out of your ass, according to http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/picksandbans.php?season=S7&tournament=ALL&patch=7.4. the most contested supports are >malz>karma>lulu>zyra>karma, with lulu and karma significantly more prominent(but comparable to malz), so if anything utility supports are overshadowing others.

Let's not mention the 80% presence of Malz tho or the 74% on Zyra

Also utility support... wtf do you think we are? Do you mean enchanter maybe? But yet Malz and Zyra have higher presence... unless there's something that I don't follow.

And if we go by the great winrate god in the sky, according to champion gg the highest winrates in the support role belongs to sion(low pickrate, can be ignored I guess)>sona>sorcyka>lulu>blitz, with all of the champions you've mentioned being <50% winrate, aside from brand, who is 50.28%.

Win rate doesn't mean everything, unless this come from an op pick like Tank Ekko when you get like 60% win rate or something.

No, in case you haven't noticed mf was specifically aimed at zyra, and wasn't picked into anything else, showing clearly that unless it's specifically zyra they were facing, other supports were better(now they are just plain better, even if they are played into zyra).

Yes... this is exactly what I said wtf? That you have to pick a marksman in order to beat her? And you must have either an Ashe or a Jhin in order to beat her in lane? When normally every support has at least one weakness.

manbearswineMar 13, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You know what I mean: ap ''supports'' mages, don't try to be smart.

No, I don't get what you mean, they are mages played in the 0cs/pos 5/hard support role, which is actually the only thing "support" actually stands for as far as roles go.

Let's not mention the 80% presence of Malz tho or the 74% on Zyra

Have you actually looked at the thing? 86% on malz and 35% on zyra, not 74%, karma and lulu being 66% and 63%, overall having more presence. Oh and some more utility supports are being played, like nami with 19% and sorcyka with 6%, and zilean with 7%, only other mage is brand with a measly 3%.

Also utility support... wtf do you think we are? Do you mean enchanter maybe?

"Hurr durr me follow new riot names hurr durr", they don't even fit karma and lulu well, who are just as much disablers as they are buffers if not more. So no, they are utility supports, not enchanters.

But yet Malz and Zyra have higher presence... unless there's something that I don't follow.

Have you somehow missed the "presence" stat for supports in 7.4? karma and lulu alone have more presence than all mage supports combined.

Win rate doesn't mean everything, unless this come from an op pick like Tank Ekko when you get like 60% win rate or something.

Tell that to the boards, hell I'm fairly sure the only reason you aren't talking about it is because it doesn't fit your agenda, otherwise it would be all "mages support op in solo q hurr dur, the winrate god has told me so"

Yes... this is exactly what I said wtf? That you have to pick a marksman in order to beat her?

"Had", not "have", zyra got nerfed and it's not worth picking mf into her anymore.

And you must have either an Ashe or a Jhin in order to beat her in lane?

That has little to do with zyra, same reason as varus is constantly picked, it's just because those guys were high value picks, zyra didn't have too much to do with that.

When normally every support has at least one weakness.

? What weaknesses do thresh or braum or kench have? Zyra has more than most, in fact mf is obvious proof of that, mind you those get obscured when she gets too strong, just like when anyone else gets too strong, she also isn't too strong anymore, as clearely evidenced by her pick+ban rate, also winrate if you're in the boards(cause when in rome... better fucking worship the winrate god).

NymzoMar 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No, I don't get what you mean, they are mages played in the 0cs/pos 5/hard support role, which is actually the only thing "support" actually stands for as far as roles go.

Yes you are right, there's mage like Zilean or even Bard. But the thing is that their poke is secondary to them. They only have one spell that does dmg (or two if you count Bard's meeps). They are a early game bullies that turn into utility mages later on because their damage falls off later on. Meanwhile, try to find that in the ap ''supports'', you won't, because they were designed as mages. And you know what? That's okay because their dmg is suppose to be better late game like carries. But the problem is that cause an advantage since there's 2 people who have dmg early game vs only one that does. And because their base dmg is so high, they can live without items even when behind.

Have you actually looked at the thing? 86% on malz and 35% on zyra, not 74%, karma and lulu being 66% and 63%, overall having more presence.

I'm not sure if the page has updated or something because now Zyra is at 72% while Karma is at 58% and Lulu is at 28%...

Oh and some more utility supports are being played, like nami with 19% and sorcyka with 6%, and zilean with 7%, only other mage is brand with a measly 3%.

Which means they are rarely picked because they don't have enough tools to be able to survive Zyra and Malz...

"Hurr durr me follow new riot names hurr durr", they don't even fit karma and lulu well, who are just as much disablers as they are buffers if not more. So no, they are utility supports, not enchanters.

Only Lulu can ''disable'' someone, but this is more use as a defensive option. But eh I won't fight for names anyway.

Have you somehow missed the "presence" stat for supports in 7.4? karma and lulu alone have more presence than all mage supports combined.

You know why? Because they are the only supports that has the tools to be able to soften the blows from their early game dmg. Lulu has the kit to back her up since she's an anti burst enchanter while Karma has her shield. Nami probably got benched because her mana pool is too small for the amount of pokes that they can throw at you.

Tell that to the boards, hell I'm fairly sure the only reason you aren't talking about it is because it doesn't fit your agenda, otherwise it would be all "mages support op in solo q hurr dur, the winrate god has told me so"

Can you f*cking read? Holy, I just told you I don't trust winrate unless it's something beyond 50% that is super, super obvious. There's so many factors that can decide a lane. The adcs alone are an example.

"Had", not "have", zyra got nerfed and it's not worth picking mf into her anymore.

Don't act like Zyra got the same nerf as Lb just had in this patch. An increase mana cost on your q and now you actually have to hit your spells if you want your plants to attack is a massif nerf now? Don't make me laugh.

That has little to do with zyra, same reason as varus is constantly picked, it's just because those guys were high value picks, zyra didn't have too much to do with that.

I meant that you have to pick either Ashe or Jhin with Missfortune in order to beat her.

? What weaknesses do thresh or braum or kench have? Zyra has more than most, in fact mf is obvious proof of that, mind you those get obscured when she gets too strong, just like when anyone else gets too strong, she also isn't too strong anymore, as clearely evidenced by her pick+ban rate, also winrate if you're in the boards(cause when in rome... better fucking worship the winrate god).

Thresh is weak to poke, because he doesn't have substain aside from Relic Shield, Braum is a defensive support and is also weak to poke because no substain and Kench has some a little bit of delays in ganks follow up because of his passif that need 3 stacks and he also has no substains (but he has a little more for himself thanks to his e). And this is why you don't pick them into Zyra.

Which is where there's an issue, since those with substain in their kit don't have that much all-in potiential aside from Nami. Zyra is weak to all-in, yes, but I hope you got enoguh hp to back you up otherwise...

manbearswineMar 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yes you are right, there's mage like Zilean or even Bard. But the thing is that their poke is secondary to them. They only have one spell that does dmg (or two if you count Bard's meeps). They are a early game bullies that turn into utility mages later on because their damage falls off later on. Meanwhile, try to find that in the ap ''supports'', you won't, because they were designed as mages. And you know what? That's okay because their dmg is suppose to be better late game like carries. But the problem is that cause an advantage since there's 2 people who have dmg early game vs only one that does. And because their base dmg is so high, they can live without items even when behind.

On paper anything can cause an advantage, in practice not really, and as you can see, even though zyra and malz do a lot of damage all around, lulu and karma are more contested(combined that is, in person they are malz>karma>lulu>zyra)

I'm not sure if the page has updated or something because now Zyra is at 72% while Karma is at 58% and Lulu is at 28%... Which means they are rarely picked because they don't have enough tools to be able to survive Zyra and Malz...

You have it set to "all" instead of to patch 7.4, which is the latest one for competitive.

Only Lulu can ''disable'' someone, but this is more use as a defensive option. But eh I won't fight for names anyway.

Karma has a slow and a snare, and calling a disable(slow/snare/stun/knockup/ etc) an "enchant" is really inappropriate, but yes, it's just a name.

You know why? Because they are the only supports that has the tools to be able to soften the blows from their early game dmg. Lulu has the kit to back her up since she's an anti burst enchanter while Karma has her shield. Nami probably got benched because her mana pool is too small for the amount of pokes that they can throw at you.

No, nami isn't picked because she falls off like a brick late, hell the only reason lulu is picked so often now is because her passive got buffed, helping her trade, but not really sustain poke.

You keep treating balance like something wild where something is inherently much stronger about zyra and malz compared to other supports, it's not, some increased numbers on nami and she'll dominate instead.

Can you f*cking read? Holy, I just told you I don't trust winrate unless it's something beyond 50% that is super, super obvious. There's so many factors that can decide a lane. The adcs alone are an example.

Considering these are the boards, I have a hard time believing that, they do a very good job at getting rid of heretics, so I'm just guessing you're ignoring them cause it's convenient, I might be wrong, but I'm probably not.

Don't act like Zyra got the same nerf as Lb just had in this patch. An increase mana cost on your q and now you actually have to hit your spells if you want your plants to attack is a massif nerf now? Don't make me laugh.

Well, zyra wasn't as strong as lb was to begin with, hence she didn't need a comparable nerf, and as you can see it was enough to make her much less of a contested pick, so...

I meant that you have to pick either Ashe or Jhin with Missfortune in order to beat her.

Thresh is weak to poke, because he doesn't have substain aside from Relic Shield,

How is an all in champion weak to poke? Sure if he just let's his enemies poke him then he will, well, get poked, but he isn't weak to it.

Braum is a defensive support and is also weak to poke because no substain

You realize braum can poke back right? not to mention that aggressive plays on him can result in him jumping to a creep and fucking you up, the new supports are overloaded as fuck and aren't weak to anything, this is why riot just keeps buffing and nerfing braum via the same numbers, kit wise he is always dominant, it's just a matter of numbers.

and Kench has some a little bit of delays in ganks follow up because of his passif that need 3 stacks and he also has no substains (but he has a little more for himself thanks to his e). And this is why you don't pick them into Zyra.

All of these guys were excellent picks into zyra prior to her rework, post it thresh has issues due to the windup on his hook(a very specific interaction), braum and kench have some issues because balance at the moment slightly favors ranged supports, they'll be fine vs zyra soon enough.

Which is where there's an issue, since those with substain in their kit don't have that much all-in potiential aside from Nami. Zyra is weak to all-in, yes, but I hope you got enoguh hp to back you up otherwise...

Well, considering it's rather easy to all in her, if you didn't require hp to do it she'll be trash.

NymzoMar 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

On paper anything can cause an advantage, in practice not really, and as you can see, even though zyra and malz do a lot of damage all around, lulu and karma are more contested(combined that is, in person they are malz>karma>lulu>zyra)

I'm pretty sure they are contested because they can stand their ground agains them. Janna is strong herself but she struggles against anything that is not a melee champ.

You have it set to "all" instead of to patch 7.4, which is the latest one for competitive.

Ah I see, oops. But Malz is at 85% so can we agree there's still an issue? Btw, support Camille huh.

No, nami isn't picked because she falls off like a brick late, hell the only reason lulu is picked so often now is because her passive got buffed, helping her trade, but not really sustain poke.

I always thought that was also because her ult is not useful for engaging, huh.

You keep treating balance like something wild where something is inherently much stronger about zyra and malz compared to other supports, it's not, some increased numbers on nami and she'll dominate instead.

I mean... pros don't pick champions because they feel like it.

Considering these are the boards, I have a hard time believing that, they do a very good job at getting rid of heretics, so I'm just guessing you're ignoring them cause it's convenient, I might be wrong, but I'm probably not.

If you don't to believe me, that's okay but don't assume anything. I have nothing to win here, I'm just telling my point of view.

Well, zyra wasn't as strong as lb was to begin with, hence she didn't need a comparable nerf, and as you can see it was enough to make her much less of a contested pick, so...

The problem is that you act like that nerf transformed her into release Bard.

How is an all in champion weak to poke? Sure if he just let's his enemies poke him then he will, well, get poked, but he isn't weak to it.

I'm not only talking about the support, the adc too. The more dmg you take, the less successful your all-in will be. They are not ''weak'' of course. That was a poor choice of words in my part but that's a good ''counter'' to all-in.

You realize braum can poke back right? not to mention that aggressive plays on him can result in him jumping to a creep and fucking you up, the new supports are overloaded as fuck and aren't weak to anything, this is why riot just keeps buffing and nerfing braum via the same numbers, kit wise he is always dominant, it's just a matter of numbers.

Yet, he only has 7% in your list. If he was that viable against Zyra and Malz, he would have been picked more often.

All of these guys were excellent picks into zyra prior to her rework, post it thresh has issues due to the windup on his hook(a very specific interaction), braum and kench have some issues because balance at the moment slightly favors ranged supports, they'll be fine vs zyra soon enough.

I hope so.

manbearswineMar 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure they are contested because they can stand their ground agains them.

If you can't stand your ground against something(anything really) that champion likely won't get picked, mind you they feel comfortable picking them before their opposing support, and are also played into each other, so unfortunately this seems like the classic case of league of "this is just the strongest", and not actually a reaction to anything(in contrast to mf into zyra for example).

Janna is strong herself but she struggles against anything that is not a melee champ.

In competitive, sure, in solo q janna seems to be generally doing well, haven't played her in a while though, so I'm not sure(mostly because I don't play much as of late).

Ah I see, oops. But Malz is at 85% so can we agree there's still an issue?

Probably, I haven't played against him much personally so I can't tell for sure.

Btw, support Camille huh.

Apparently it's sort of a thing, she's mostly permabanned so I'm not sure if it's her "primary" role now.

I always thought that was also because her ult is not useful for engaging, huh.

The way I see it her kit(q and ult specifically) were not designed for the game to be as mobile as it is now, the more reliable aspects of her kit have been consistently buffed for a while, but I'm not sure what the point of that is.

I mean... pros don't pick champions because they feel like it.

Sure, they pick the strongest things available, but that thing doesn't have to be inherently stronger, could easily just be overtuned numbers.

If you don't to believe me, that's okay but don't assume anything. I have nothing to win here, I'm just telling my point of view.

Thing is you won't last long here unless you sumbit to the winrate gods, they don't like your kind around here.

The problem is that you act like that nerf transformed her into release Bard.

Well it mostly transformed her from somewhat too strong to mostly balanced, it's just that she's for the most part not a balance problem anymore(in contrast to the current performance of malz/karma/lulu, but that's how things generally are, so...).

I'm not only talking about the support, the adc too. The more dmg you take, the less successful your all-in will be. They are not ''weak'' of course. That was a poor choice of words in my part but that's a good ''counter'' to all-in.

It's a thin line really, but in contrast to thresh who actually works in a way that makes him weak to zyra, braum and kench aren't, and it's mostly a matter of numbers to them.

Yet, he only has 7% in your list. If he was that viable against Zyra and Malz, he would have been picked more often.

you don't see him picked into lulu or karma much either, do you? he is slightly out of meta, minor numbers changes or possible an indirect buff will cause him to be a contested pick again.

I hope so.

I mean, tank supports dominated competitive EXTREMELY hard for ages, so you won't see me complain about them being slightly out of meta for a relatively short time(they basically owned bot lane since the start of season 4 until near the end of season 6 if I'm not mistaken).

An Undead bratMar 13, 20171 votes

That would be like if fighters would have as much as burst assasins, or if tanks would do as much damage as juggernauts: they would overshadow the purpose of a class while also keeping theirs.

I'm sorry but I fail to find shields, heals and reliable instant CC (except for Malz's ult) in their kits, so no they are not comparable to tanks having juggernaut CC in the slightest, if anything Lux is maybe the closest comparsion to that ecause she has a shield.

NymzoMar 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEUvgbMV,comment-id=0004000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-13T05:13:31.988+0000)

I'm sorry but I fail to find shields, heals and reliable instant CC (except for Malz's ult) in their kits, so no they are not comparable to tanks having juggernaut CC in the slightest, if anything is maybe the closest comparsion to that ecause she has a shield.

You don't need shields or heals to be a support, Zilean is a good example. The thing is that you really need to have to be a viable in the support role is to, sadly, have CC. Anything else is secondary and will only matter in the playstyle of the champion. But the only thing that all supports don't have is damage. Yes, some just do a little bit more dmg than others early game like Zilean q's for example. But the thing is that late game, his dmg falls off really hard and his double q will be use to stun. In fact, he doesn't have a passif once everyone on his team is level 18. But ap ''supports''? Their dmg doesn't fall up, because they were designed like mages which means it only gets better with items but because they also have CC, this is where everything starts to go wrong. Before the mage update, they were a little bit like Zilean: they were early game mages bullies except that unlike old zilean, they had cc. However, their early game was weak because they were items dependent like most mages at the time.

But of course, everything changed when the mage update attacked.

An Undead bratMar 13, 20171 votes

No you don't need Shields and Heals to be a support, I'm reffering to the claim that mages just overshadow supports (Enchanters, to be correct) in all aspects as much as if tanks had juggernaut damage, they'd overshadow them, which is simply bullshit, because:

#Tanks

Tankiness
CC

#Juggernauts

Tankiness
Damage

#Tank + Juggernaut

Tankiness
CC
Damage

That would be an outclass.

#Supports

CC
Shields/Heals

#Mages

CC
Damage

#Support + Mage (which you compared to Tank + Juggernaut)

CC
Damage
Heals and shields

That's what would happen if it worked as you described. BUT this is not an outclass simply because none of these champions have all these three things, they bring unique strengths that you might need and want in the botlane, you basically choose between Shields/Healing and damage - you can have both with only few champs, they're mediocre at best at all of these things and none of our Fantastic Zyra Velkoz Malzahar Four belongs there.

If you are interested, here's the list of them: Karma Lulu Lux Morgana Orianna Sona and to an extent Zilean (if we count his ultimate as a Heal/Shield, which it practically is) and Galio .

NymzoMar 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEUvgbMV,comment-id=000400000001000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-13T16:21:37.830+0000)

No you don't need Shields and Heals to be a support, I'm reffering to the claim that mages just overshadow supports (Enchanters, to be correct) in all aspects as much as if tanks had juggernaut damage, they'd overshadow them, which is simply bullshit, because:

That's what would happen if it worked as you described. BUT this is not an outclass simply because none of these champions have all these three things, they bring unique strengths that you might need and want in the botlane, you basically choose between Shields/Healing and damage - you can have both with only few champs, they're mediocre at best at all of these things and none of our Fantastic Four belongs there.

Ok first of all, when I said ''support'', I meant all type, not just Enchanters.

I think I didn't explained my point clearly, allow me to rephrase it:

Look at what Riot wrote about the support role in the new player guide:

Helpful champions that focus on augmenting teammates (through heals, shields, etc) and disabling their opponents. **They usually have low damage but offset that with their high utility and unparalleled battlefield control. **

Notice that they specify low dmg but better utility in their guide. There's some exceptions like Sona who is a mix between a burst mage and an Enchanter (but she needs a rework anyway). What that means if that Rio designed and will design other supports with this guide in mind.

The ''Fantastic Four'' however, were not designed with this mindset because they were designed for midlane mages in the update. And because the said update made them less dependant on ap items, their previous early game weakness was removed while also keeping their mid game powerspike and late game threat. And btw, the early game at bot lane is very, very important because this is want it's decide who is going to be feed or who is going to be put in the ground. I didn't even mention the ''nerf'' to Rylai that decreased his cost, making a very cost efficient items (and when you live with a budget, the low cost make the decision for you).

What does it means? That means if you play against an ap ''support'' mage, you are starting with a disavantage when the game did not even begin. If you play a normal support, unless the jungler camps your lane or they somehow fuck up, you will lose every single 2 vs 2 because there's 2 person that does dmg now. You can pick any supports that you want, it will not work:

An enchanter? The ap support doesn't have the fear to be all-in (since most enchanters are defensive) so they poke you or your adc for free (unless you can manage to poke them back a little bit) and all-in you whatever they can (unless your jungler is there and he's able to do something).

A disrupter? Now you can all-in them but you don't have enough substain to endure their spells which means unless both you and your adc managed to dodge almost everything, you won't be able to all-in.

A warden? Good luck even trying to approach minions without getting poke.

Of course, they wouldn't be that much of an issue if they had no CC. But because mages need at least one spell that has CC in order to keep assasins at bay. And unfortunately, all you need to be viable as a support pick is to have at least one CC (which is why is viable as a support)

Why would you pick shield and heals when you can poke your enemies from afar? Why would you need hooks and displacements when you can stun or root the assasin while also dealing HUGE amount of dmgs to them. Why you need to protect the adc by being a meat shield when you can use the best way to protect them: death (I wish that would stay as a meme).

That's why they overshadow the support role.

Btw, I'm NOT saying that they are op. Far from it actually, it just that they kill the diversity and the early game can be a pain in the ***.

An Undead bratMar 13, 20171 votes

I'm sorry, I don't have time to read all od that, but I don't even need to because you are just repeating the same damn thing... THEY. DON'T. OVERSHADOW. THEM. BECAUSE. EVERY. SUPPORT. CHAMPION. HAS. STRENGTHS. AND. WEAKNESSES. There is literally no champion with great CC, great damage, great shielding, great anything you would want a support to do while it does it the best in that class, there's no such champion.

NymzoMar 13, 20171 votes

Except that I didn't say that at all.

DionesusMar 13, 20171 votes

Umm I think you don't understand league if you feel that way. A support is whatever works with low golda and whatever team needs. Plz stop with this posts. Thx

Linna ExcelMar 12, 20176 votes

That would work, however you just buffed soraka and sona.

Irelia BotMar 12, 20175 votes

kinda but spaming abilities costs mana

JavelinJoeMar 12, 20176 votes

and health for soraka's w

Anu3isIIMar 12, 20176 votes

That seems to encourage Passive Play Style more than ever. Imagine Janna shielding her ADC everytime you try to poke it. Not only you didn't achieve anything, but also Janna is rewarded for just negating any Proactive play her enemies try to do.

Also, your idea requires spamming defensive abilities, with old version you could at least make small trades by Auto-Attacking the opponents.

And again, spamming defensive abilities is a rather expensive thing. Many Supports have huge Mana costs on their heals/shields, and spamming them recklessly leads to "oom" situations.

CalabokMar 12, 20173 votes

Brand should be able to 1v2 you and is fun.

DoaenelMar 12, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Brand should be able to 1v2 you and is fun.

Please read the text instead of just giving an irrelevant opinion

Chaos Milk TeaMar 12, 20175 votes

That was sarcasm, or at least a joke.

DionesusMar 12, 20172 votes

Mage support isn't a problem...

JavelinJoeMar 12, 201717 votes

Mage supports are just mid lane carry champions who do not want to support but be an actual carry. They offer maybe one type of hard CC / utility for their team and offer 0 defensive/heal/shield options for their ADC.

DionesusMar 14, 20171 votes

I don't see the problem. Plz explain

JavelinJoeMar 14, 20171 votes

They offer maybe one type of hard CC / utility for their team and offer 0 defensive/heal/shield options for their ADC.

They are not playing anything or with any intention to support their team, especially the ADC during the laning phase. That is the role of a SUPPORT. It is not a carry role. Sure you could always possibly get fed and carry, but that is not one of the main goals for that role.

DionesusMar 14, 20171 votes

I understand what you are saying but there is a reason malz and zyra are still pick ban in pro play. They bring something valuable to the table. And you are completely wrong about adc and laning phase. Adcs have weak every games and many of these ap carry supports have high base damage. Getting your adc ahead with setting up kills (which is easier for ap supports) is Huge during laning phase. You don't really understand the meaning of support if you think heals and shields are required for support.

JavelinJoeMar 15, 20171 votes

Zyra is a support who offers a multitude of utility for her team including many AOEs and zoning mechanics around her seeds and which ability she chooses to use on them. She offers peel, poke, both hard and soft CC, zoning, and minor vision mechanics with her seeds.

Malz has one of the best ults for a support to have (a point and click suppression). He also had (before it was nerfed) a strong blocking ability for many incoming threats like Thresh and Nautilus hooks (his voidlings (W) could block them with their near instant, on-click spawn). He also has an AOE silence and his voidlings can also be used to scout brush to see if there is an enemy hiding within it. His passive also is a great blocker for 90% of any incoming threat and 100% of incoming CC when up. So he can step between you and what is targeting you (like a Caitlyn ult as an example) and both of you walk away.lock it, thus protecting you and at the same time not putting himself further into danger.

Also, both of these champions can be useful without completely relying on being ahead of the enemy or having a lane match-up advantage. If they fall behind, they still have their use, unlike say Brand who ends up being next to useless when behind because he needs 2 abilities to land in order to provide any CC.

Espy PsycheMar 12, 20172 votes

Mage supports are the solution, not a problem. Mage supports existing is actually the answer to the "supports are helpless on their own", "supports can't carry a game no matter how good they are", etc. issues. Mage supports are the best thing that's happened to League for a long time.

DoaenelMar 12, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Espy Psyche,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mEUvgbMV,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-03-12T18:36:30.136+0000)

Mage supports are the solution, not a problem. Mage supports existing is actually the answer to the "supports are helpless on their own", "supports can't carry a game no matter how good they are", etc. issues. Mage supports are the best thing that's happened to League for a long time.

False, think what the term support implies, supports arent supposed to carry, theyre supposed to help the carry, hence the word support, also, damage creep is a huge issue, mage supports worsen this

AptestMar 12, 20173 votes

the term support is misleading. anybody who uses it is making an error in his nomenclature. the role is actually called "the guy who relegates farm to others".

think about what this name implies, and then you will understand better.

SpecterVonBarenMar 13, 20171 votes

No, it isn't. A support is a support. Going to the duo lane doesn't make you a support. Think about what the term ACTUALLY means and you'll understand.

AptestMar 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No, it isn't. A support is a support. Going to the duo lane doesn't make you a support. Think about what the term ACTUALLY means and you'll understand.

when I press the "support" button on the menu I am not quoing up to "play support". I queue up to go to the duo lane. So does everybody else who presses that button whether they choose to play what you call support or not.

the button is miss-labeled. You have an error because you are thinking the the label should be honored when it is the label that is erroneous.

ALSO: since nobody knows what support is including you, "support is support" is a good example of a nonsense cyclic argument with no meaning. Proof if you knew what support is you would not use "support is support" as an argument you'd use a descriptive one.

SpecterVonBarenMar 13, 20171 votes

Let's get into this then.

The role of the secondary in the duo lane was that of a support for much of the life of this game because supports give utility to a carry and don't need much gold to function.
Riot has made it so almost every support is only capable of going bot lane, any time one of them tries to branch out into another lane they get stomped back down to bot lane.
When mages start going bot lane because they have a shit ton of base damage and can burst the enemy down, it causes those supports to be shoved out of the meta and have nowhere else to go.

Therefore, until Riot makes it so champs like Braum, Nami, and Bard can go into a solo lane, the role of secondary bot laner should and is that of an actual Support, because the alternative is the entire support class being rendered irrelevant. The outliers do not make the rule.

AptestMar 13, 20171 votes

When mages start going bot lane because they have a shit ton of base damage and can burst the enemy down, it causes those supports to be shoved out of the meta and have nowhere else to go.

This has two parts.

When new characters become viable in a lane, all the existing characters in that lane take a play-rate hit. because some of the players choose to play Trundle or Zyra or Brand over playing Soraka.

if I switched from Soraka to Brand because i liked Brand's play style in general but could not play him on my favorite lane because lack of gold, that's not a bad thing. Yes Soraka got pushed out, but it's not a bad case of pushed out, it's a good one - I the player benefited from having access to the more fun character.

if OTOH i really like Soraka but she's simply becoming not viable and every time I see brand picked or if i don't know who the other support is I can't pick her, than that's a bad thing because i don't get to play a character I like simply because she's not good.

Please also consider that what the ADC wants or what the jungler wants is not relevant in this discussion. The ADC player doesn't have a dog in the race of who he gets as a support. I mean he does but i don't think the argument of I don't like the enemy support blasting me please make the other guy play around protecting his own carry instead of killing me holds any water.

So I guess the real question is not if Brand support replaces Soraka support, but rather if he is doing a "good replacement" (the support player gets to play a more fun chracter) or a "bad replacement" (the support player can't play his favorite champion due to unsuitability).

from the opposite angle, how much of Soraka's play rate is "good play rate" (I really like Soraka and enjoy her), and how much of it is "bad play rate" (I wish i could play something else but Soraka is super good right now)? Is the increase in Brand support play a symptom of removing "bad play rate" from Soraka? or removing "good play rate"?

If I look at champion.gg, the tradisional caster supports (Soraka, Janna, Lulu, Karma, Nami) have the high play rates, and also they have good win rates. Whereas damage supports have small play rate and are a mixed bag, win% wise.

Since "supporty supports" are shown to be good and popular, and the options that replace them are generally less good and less popular, I can only come to the conclusion that the "Brand supports" you've been seeing is a case of "Soraks's bad play rate" getting replaced with Brand's "good play rate".

Chaos Milk TeaMar 12, 20172 votes

Ok, I understand the sentiment but there's some problems with it I'd like to discuss:

Firstly, Frost queen encourages engaged gameplay. The fact that you actually have to fight the opponent to gain gold is much healthier and interesting than giving gold for every time you heal while sitting back under tower. I think the REAL PROBLEM with Frost queen's claim is that you can trigger it multiple times with one DOT ability. You should get one proc per spell, such that you must work hard to earn that gold. Whether there should be mages or not in bot is not a problem with Frost Queen's claim itself.

That said, I think there is merit to your idea. It would be interesting if utility supports were encouraged to use their heals and shields in engaging ways rather than turtling. For example,what if you gained gold every time a shield you applied took damage? It would have the same "turns off if you CS" effect as frost queen, but encourages you to work with your carry to actively engage and gain gold. And if you are behind and getting bullied, you will still find plenty of chances to gain gold. It could work similarly for healing. If you heal an ally and they take damage again within 5 seconds, or if you heal an ally below 50% hp you would gain gold.

With regards to mages in bot lane, either heal supports need to become more popular (they counter the mage poke tactics) or if that isn't enough then tank supports need a cheap item that builds out of spectral cowl.

Void KaijuMar 13, 20172 votes

issue is this would leave champs like bard in the dumpster. Bard gets through lane by proccing spellthiefs with meep-q. He would be completely unviable, and I would rather have some mages being effective botlane. Because I love bard. (This could be solved by tacking gold gain onto his chimes that way when he leaves a shrine while hes out getting meeps he procs, but it still wouldnt be ideal unless his gold gain became op) Secondly that would encourage the most passive botlanes imaginable. Soraka, sona, etc would just sit back and spam heal their adc with even less incentive to move up and do anything else. Mages botlane aren't a problem if you know how to play against them. Most of the meta botlane mages aren't particularly threatening until 6 (zyra being the notable exception). For the most part, mage supports are easily dealt with by having a decent frontline unless its brand in which case his ult will still wreak havoc but there are ways to play around him. What your plan does is kill offensive enchanters almost entirely whilst discouraging the less offensive ones from ever having to take risks.

Oh also if the issue is that people aren't picking 'legitimate supports that actually support their team" and instead are opting for high impact teamfight aoe damage (Which still helps your team btw!) rather than nerfing support itemization the solution would be to look at these "legitimate supports" and see why they have become so unappealing. I personally think it's due to the carry in every lane meta that is often heavy in single target damage, so cc and enchanting will only take you so far if the other teams comp has a stronger aoe presence.

Although if you ask me I think the gold gain on a bunch of the support items should scale less as you build them up and then have that excess gold gain moved to sightstone so people actually consistently build the bloody thing.

Acheron16Mar 13, 20172 votes

Better ideas:

-Make Sightstone (or it's upgrade) recharge ward charges

Give support morphing items, so that after X heals/shields/wards put down/etc they get a better item while wasting less money
Nerf mage supports' (shit like Annie, Brand, Zyra) base damage values (and buff scallings) and give Liandry's lower base damage, so that they have to actually buy AP for that item to be effective.
Make more fun supports, instead of afk shit like Soraka, Janna, Sona, Alistar, Leona that while very effective are mind-numbingly boring to play (make more shit like Braum)

Chimp JokerMar 13, 20171 votes

Bruh. If Sightstone was able to recharge wards, Lee sin would probably be permabanned.

ForgottenLuckMar 13, 20172 votes

Unless you buff the mana regen that is kinda stupid no offense, this is coming from a support main. Since you are basically forcing them to play passive and heal or buff their adc even when they don't need it, putting the ability in cd if an engage happens. It really is not a good change