About the Lee Sin buffs on PBE...

Dealth··4 votes·775 views

(Iron Will - Life Steal increased by 5% at all ranks)

This isn't what he needs. Any decent Lee Sin can sustain through the jungle. All this does is help him solo dragon.

What he needs is his attack speed slow back on his E. Even if it's a weaker version. He struggles in team fights and if he can't burst someone with QERQ then he is completely out of options to fight back with.

16 Comments

Bears Dont Care5 votes

The attack speed slow is just too strong for a kit that is already incredibly flexible. Lee Sin is a jungler who doesn't really have any hard drawbacks.

Dealth1 votes

Well the reason he is so bad late game is because he is bad in team fights. The attack speed slow would hopefully help with that and give him an opportunity to fight back against auto-attack based champions. It doesn't have to be as strong as it was before, but I do think that is what he needs. Not more lifesteal.

Bears Dont Care3 votes

{quoted}

Well the reason he is so bad late game is because he is bad in team fights. The attack speed slow would hopefully help with that and give him an opportunity to fight back against auto-attack based champions. It doesn't have to be as strong as it was before, but I do think that is what he needs. Not more lifesteal.

I don't agree with this idea, it was removed because it made his kit stronger than it needed to be. As it stands, Lee Sin is in a good place, I don't see a reason to buff him.

LankPants3 votes

Lee Sin doesn't need buffs. He's been the most picked jungler in the game on every single patch since the end of S2.

l Helios l1 votes

I think most of 2016 has been Nidalee, Elise, Rek'Sai, Graves, and Gragas. Especially last few patches was nothing but Rek'Sai and Gragas.

LankPants2 votes

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/leesin

It's Lee Sin, on every patch, for the last 4 years.

Gragas and Rek'sai are nowhere near Lee.

l Helios l1 votes

Factually wrong concerning the Summer Split. Lee was played a total of 3 times. Rek'Sai: 140. Gragas: 85. Elise: 55. Nidalee: 43. Graves: 32. Kindred: 23. Lee Sin: 3.

http://lol.gamepedia.com/2016_NA_LCS/Summer_Split/Champion_Statistics

Even in Spring, Lee was picked 17 times and banned once. Nidalee was banned 49 times and picked 24 times. Elise was banned 18 times and picked 43 times. Graves was banned 34 times and picked 26 times. Rek'Sai was picked 31 times and banned 3 times. Gragas was picked 27 times and banned 5 times. Kindred was pick and banned 11 times for both. So again, factually wrong for this season.

http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/League_Championship_Series/North_America/2016_Season/Spring_Season/Statistics/Champions

Data is for NA. As far as frequent picks in NA, Lee was very often a tier 2 or 3 jungler, with Elise, Graves, and Nidalee being the big 3. I'm not sure if you watch LCS, but I hope you realize Lee has fallen far from his throne this season.

Edit: Also you're looking at the wrong graph. Your link is for Gold+. To be helpful, here's the link you want for LCS. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/leesin/lcs

As you can see, far from being top dog.

LankPants1 votes

I'm talking about Solo Queue, where Lee has been the top pick for 4 years without a single patch of downtime. He's also not a bad competitive champion, he's good enough to be played. So if he's good enough to see competitive play and the most picked champion in Solo Queue then how can you justify buffs to him?

l Helios l1 votes

He's a champion that everyone describes as simple and easy to play. I don't think popularity is an accurate judge of strength. Lee is perceived as being strong, even when he's not. People play him on that basis. His play rate is pretty consistent across all all elos, but it's trash in LCS because Lee isn't favored in the meta, due to the unreliability of his engage and his inferiority to Rek'Sai and others.

I could use the same analogy for Thresh. Thresh is one of those champions who could be utter garbage and be played on the basis of his kit alone. Lee is the same way. I doubt anyone would argue Thresh doesn't need buffs; he's not strong right now due to the strength of Karma and Braum, and Thresh is a very fun champion to watch, play as, and play against.

It's a mindset of bringing the weaker champions up to a level while toning down those who are too strong, which is good.

Also, Lee is the only the 5th most popular champion right now. Behind Thresh, Lucian, Ashe, and Jhin. Lucian being number 2, who is argued to be terrible right now compared to other ADCs, prior to last patch at least.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

I don't think 5% bonus LS and SV is going to make Lee god again. It's really nothing to lose your mind over.

LankPants1 votes

Also, Lee is the only the 5th most popular champion right now. Behind Thresh, Lucian, Ashe, and Jhin. Lucian being number 2, who is argued to be terrible right now compared to other ADCs, prior to last patch at least.

I meant to say jungle champ. He's been the top jungle champ for 4 years. If use League of Graphs you can see this, if you look at the graph of pickrate since 2013 (which is as far back as data for this goes) no jungle champion ever spikes above Lee's playrate.

But yes you are correct that there are more popular champs than Lee. I just left a very important word out.

I doubt anyone would argue Thresh doesn't need buffs

I actually would argue this. Thresh is still in the top 20% of competitive champ picks, he's in the top 1% of ranked champion picks and he seems to be doing well enough right now. He doesn't need to be a god tier champion and right now he is probably already on the stronger side of balanced.

It's a mindset of bringing the weaker champions up to a level while toning down those who are too strong, which is good.

So am I. Champs like Aatrox Amumu Chogath Evelynn JarvanIV Nautilus Nocturne Sejuani Shyvana Sion Udyr Vi Volibear Warwick (needs a rework though) XinZhao and Zac should be bought up to Lee's level and champs like Rek'sai, Grag and Elise should be bought down to it. Just to be clear I also think the game should be balanced around primarily competitive. I just believe that in a competitive sense Lee Sin is balanced. He's good enough to be played without being so good that he has to be picked. That should be the goal.

I don't think 5% bonus LS and SV is going to make Lee god again. It's really nothing to lose your mind over.

Competitively it might. His rank 1 W2 is getting doubled in power. That could amount to an extra 100-150 HP during early clears, which is a lot of power. I doubt Lee will ever drop below 75% in his clears now, which is a huge strength. This is one of the major reasons why Elise is currently played so you have to weigh that.

l Helios l1 votes

Aatrox Evelynn Warwick are all getting reworks at some point. Eve is likely to be early next year and WW is directly next. Aatrox will probably be after Urgot and Eve.

XinZhao Chogath Vi Evelynn JarvanIV Nocturne have recently been buffed or changed or have current changes on the PBE.

Zac is probably going to be a top pick with Gragas getting nerfed. His engage is now more reliable than Gragas's. Meteos argued on stream that Zac is probably gonna make a comeback.

Udyr was played in LCS in the spring. Problem is, he's more solo queue focused than LCS worthy, imo.

Sejuani yeah she got Warwick'd. That sucks, and she could use something. Same with Shyvana .

Sion and Nautilus are simply outclassed in top lane until GP (just got nerfed hard), Ekko (happening now), and Gnar (also now) get toned down. Probably the biggest thing holding them back is Gnar and Ekko. If we ever switch back to a true tank meta, I think those two will be solid with a few buffs. Malphite also just got buffed, for what it's worth.

Volibear just got toned down for solo queue purposes, so they'd need to buff his LCS viability but keep Solo queue viability the same. That's kind of hard for a rather one-dimensional champion though, since his main power is raw tankiness, Q rundown, and W execute. I wouldn't mind Voli in LCS though.

Amumu is in the same boat. Very one-dimensional, but very strong in team fights. I think if they buffed his early clear, he could be alongside Zac as decent junglers to take spots in LCS.

It is an extra 5% for all damage dealt for the course of its duration, which is 3 - 5 seconds now? I don't think 150 HP during your first clear and beyond will be enough to make him overtake Rek'Sai, Elise, and Nidalee. That in the early is the difference between 1 or 2 ganks, depending on how they go. I'm not convinced it's relevant enough to make him top tier in LCS.

In regards to Thresh, he may be in the top 20% (I'll take your assumption for the sake of time), but that doesn't change that Braum was involved in pick or ban in 50% of games. Same goes for Karma. Soraka would probably be 3Rd in frequency with maybe Janna at 4th. That would put Thresh at 5, theoretically. I'm not saying he's bad, just that the utility other champions have simply fits the meta a little better. That may change when we hit worlds, but who knows?

Dealth2 votes

Look.. I have 700k on Lee Sin.

Any decent Lee Sin can sustain himself through the jungle as is. I know you think it's an "extra 150 health", but after his first clear he will just recall, get himself a better jungle item, and never have to worry about sustain again. Only a bad lee sin will need extra Lifesteal to sustain himself.

The only thing the lifesteal opens up is his ability to solo dragon at lvl 4. Most Lee Sins (especially in competitive play) don't gank much until level 6, it's usually just a rush to get there and lifesteal won't help with that clear speed.

Late game he will still get blown up in a team fight and only be good for his ultimate.

l Helios l1 votes

You and I are on the same page then. I don't think it's worth raising concern among the community.

Death by Glamour1 votes

Worlds is coming up dude.

Need those flashy lc$ big plays...

Didn't he get a massive buff to his r right before last year?

Dealth1 votes

It wasn't a major buff but it was something. His damage isn't really the problem it's just that he gets blown up too easily.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

anual lee sin buffs, just deal with it B)

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