Cinderhulk is underwhelming

Dealth·Mar 29, 2016·82 votes·3,832 views

I think Riot should increase the health it gives from 400 to 500. It feels too weak currently and maybe could bring tank junglers back into the meta.

72 Comments

CrettMar 29, 201628 votes

I'd rather they increase the bonus health back to 25%

DealthMar 29, 20163 votes

Yeah but you don't want top laners taking smite just for the bonus health. That's why they had to reduce it.

LankPantsMar 30, 20169 votes

Na, by the time they reduced it laners weren't really taking it. Laners stopped running smite for the most part when Riot nerfed down item 3715 . Some people still ran it after that, but it was uncommon and generally accepted as a huge trade-off compared to flash.

Riot just nerfed it because they legit have no idea what they're doing. I believe they reasoning was "we want to make it better early and not as good late" while giving it +100 HP and -10%.

Jungle Lux GodMar 30, 20166 votes

The reasoning was that tanks were already strong in the late game and didn't need Cinderhulk to make them into powerful late game champions while their mid game was rather underwhelming due to the scaling fashion of the health. The change smoothed out the power curve of the tanks that used it from spiking super hard in the late game after a mediocre mid game to being pretty decent in the mid game and being really good in the late game.

Any jungle tank main would know that that was a net buff because the flat health you got was a massive buff to jungle tank's bad early game and mediocre mid game once it was purchased while the %health you lost was a minor nerf to their already amazing late game.

LankPantsMar 30, 20164 votes

Old Cinder's just as good at two items, within about 30 HP. That's mid game, they're about even there. After 3 items Old Cinder just becomes drastically better.

I'm a tank main but I can also do basic math, an it seems to me like old Cinder's pretty much always better unless you plan on building item 3025 or item 3110 as a second item, which I feel Cinderhulk should probably discourage anyway.

Jungle Lux GodMar 30, 20161 votes

But what about less than two items? New Cinderhulk is dramatically better there, and that's where they needed it the most. Every tank main knows the struggle of having to go up against an AD jungler that can bully them out of their own jungle, and the Cinderhulk change improved that situation by giving them an earlier power spike off of Cinderhulk.

And after three items is where tanks don't need Cinderhulk's extra bonus health because they already have the defenses they need from other items to be super strong in the late game. They don't need the extra power in the late game, they just need to get there more reliably, and the changes to Cinderhulk improved the early game enough to let them do that.

LankPantsMar 30, 20161 votes

Every tank main knows the struggle of having to go up against an AD jungler that can bully them out of their own jungle, and the Cinderhulk change improved that situation by giving them an earlier power spike off of Cinderhulk.

And as it turns out Cinderhulk being stronger early does very little to stop this. AD junglers don't spike when they complete Warrior, they spike before. Depending on the jungler this can either be on completion of Caulfield's or in some cases even earlier. Lee Sin spikes at level 2, for example. This early in the game you're not even going to have Cinderhulk so the fact it gives more HP is irrelevant.

By the time you've finished Cinder if they've not put you behind you're pretty much set to just outscale them. It also doesn't matter what item you buy here, I personally build Equinox before Cinder if I'm going Cinder because I find it sets up my late game far better.

Also watch the word "every". I've seen plenty of tank mains disagree with this in the past and I'm one here disagreeing with you now.

And after three items is where tanks don't need Cinderhulk's extra bonus health because they already have the defenses they need from other items to be super strong in the late game.

Not at all true. Right now ADCs are so powerful that tanking is a concept that only exists for a select few champions. A 4 item ADC will cut through the majority of 4 item tanks like butter, even if all of those items are armour items+a Cinderhulk. Tanks need all the stats they can get into the late game right now to even have a chance at surviving the incredibly overpowered state that ADCs are in.

NebuulMar 30, 20162 votes

You actually just nailed one of cinderhulk's main weaknesses: It is a tank item based on scaling off other items that does not synergize well with the majority of other tank defensive items.

Works poorly with: item 3110 item 3025 item 3026 item 3075 item 3512

LankPantsMar 31, 20161 votes

I'd say there's enough good tank items with HP on them that should be attractive in conjuncture with Cinderhulk. Items like item 3143 item 3742 item 3065 item 3102 and item 3190 do exist and are quite good items, personally I also love item 2303 but there's certainly valid arguments against this one.

The problem at least for me is that 15% just isn't enough to make me want to stack up HP, which seems like what Cinderhulk should make you want. It's hard to justify Cinder+another HP item over Sunfire+Runic right now.

A Miss FortuneMar 30, 20163 votes

I don't see a reason for laners to not take smite as long as it's healthy and balanced.

TTK DreadnoughtMar 30, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EzyUM2rQ,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-03-30T10:27:41.732+0000)

I don't see a reason for laners to not take smite as long as it's healthy and balanced.

I will agree with this. Jungle items are meant to be cheaper alternatives of traditional items with some utility aren't they? In order to allow them the ability to more freely roam without falling behind?

If a player wants to get a cheaper version of an item, I think it would be allowed so long as it does remain balanced.

TotalJerkMar 30, 201610 votes

Personally I thought 20% would've been a better number when they nerfed it.

NahuiMar 29, 201611 votes

I'd rather have Spirit of the Ancient Golem, Spirit of the Elder Lizard, and Spirit of the Spectral Wraith or whatever it was back.

KeevalroyMar 30, 20167 votes

As long as Feral Flare or anything resembling that atrocious abomination doesn't come back, great. Flare, Dev, and Sated don't belong in this game - it promotes unhealthy playstyles and given how many times it's had to be adjusted and reworked, Riot should realize by now that the item doesn't work.

NahuiMar 30, 20163 votes

I loved feral flare, I just hate how Riot has to give attack speed jungle items some special power kick. They can't just have it do flat on hit damage, no. They have to let it stack endlessly as feral flare, or give in the stupid fucking phantom hit sated thing. It's ridiculous.

Kuroi86Mar 30, 20161 votes

Otherwise it's underwhelming, on hit damage is rarely that impressive unless you have a means of applying it from a distance ala Ezreal or a way to apply it multiple times in fast succession like Warwick MasterYi or Evelynn .

Plus I think Riot is trying to give each jungle item it's own special trick to make it seem more interesting. Well... Except for Warrior, it just gets ignored.

WadeWilson1337Mar 30, 20162 votes

Warrior is just simply a bad item. For some reason, AD Assasins get item 3142 item 3156 item 3147 , but Warrior cant have armor penetration...? Literally every single meta AD jungler would benefit immensely more from armor pen than cdr. Riot keeps nerfing Devourer and Runic because they think they are op, but in reality its that warrior and cinderhulk are just so weak that they dont stack up to majority of items in the game.

The Yetii RiderMar 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Warrior is just simply a bad item. For some reason, AD Assasins get , but Warrior cant have armor penetration...? Literally every single meta AD jungler would benefit immensely more from armor pen than cdr. Riot keeps nerfing Devourer and Runic because they think they are op, but in reality its that warrior and cinderhulk are just so weak that they dont stack up to majority of items in the game.

Every single AD jungler would benefit more from armor pen than CDR, but they didn't get the CDR from the Warrior change, they got the AD. Warrior already had CDR, it gained 20 AD from the update which gives Lee Sin 40 extra damage on his ultimate. It's a pretty decent item.

Pierce The VealMar 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

As long as Feral Flare or anything resembling that atrocious abomination doesn't come back, great. Flare, Dev, and Sated don't belong in this game - it promotes unhealthy playstyles and given how many times it's had to be adjusted and reworked, Riot should realize by now that the item doesn't work.

I think the real issue is that Riot can't figure out what they want to do. The issue isn't that they can't get it to work, it's that they don't want an attack speed jungle to work the way it would, instead they want it to do other special things without any of the consequences. They want a carry on hit jungler item that scales with how fed you are without making you snowball. That is what doesn't work, not the concept of an attack speed jungle item.

XonraMar 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'd rather have Spirit of the Ancient Golem, Spirit of the Elder Lizard, and Spirit of the Spectral Wraith or whatever it was back.

Damn straight

YuGiHoMar 29, 20164 votes

i would rather a sunfire

Masala ChaiMar 30, 20164 votes

Which is why other junglers like Amumu , are ruining item 1402 for the rest of us AP junglers Diana Elise Ekko Evelynn Fizz . good riddance, buff CInderhulk.

Iris By GooDollsMar 30, 20163 votes

I think the bonus hp should be back to 25% as some1 said above, for tryhard tank fans so you have that great feeling late game even if it means they lower the base health upon completion

StrawberrycocoaMar 30, 20162 votes

You can thank top laners for that. Fuckers abused the old Cinderhulk too much.

Sire HippingtonMar 30, 20169 votes

not much their fault if health itemisation is so bad that the jungleitem is worth tradeing either flash or tp just so you have a decent health item, or that challangeing smite simply was by far the best dueling summoner back then...

GAME lS A JOKEMar 30, 20162 votes

The last thing laners need is an even MORE tanky jungler tower diving them even EARLIER in the game. I've seen it happen too many times with Sejuani and anyone else who rushes Cinderhulk for the primary purpose of tower diving ridiculously early into the game. I'm going to have to decline buffing Cinderhulk. The issue isn't Cinderhulk, it's the jungle mob stats.

LankPantsMar 30, 20166 votes

A lot of people suggest removing 100 HP from the item and giving it back 10% scaling HP. This would actually reduce tankyness when sitting on just Cinderhulk and increase it as more items are built up.

The issue isn't Cinderhulk, it's the jungle mob stats.

The issues are Cinderhulk and Warrior. They're both incredibly weak as items. They don't really compare to the items they try to compete with in Sunfire Cape and Youmuu's Ghostblade.

Bronze II Yasuo Mar 30, 20162 votes

Just my two cents but I'd rather have a tank take his own risk and tower dive me than a Graves who can just blow me up under my turret without taking a single tower shot.

Just my two cents.

WadeWilson1337Mar 30, 20163 votes

Oh no, he can take the tower shots. He can get up to 120 bonus armor, he dont give a fuck about that paper machete tower.

JafarThePandaMar 30, 20162 votes

They need to make a sated cinderhulk, runic, and warrior to go with devourer

morris1Mar 30, 20163 votes

Because tank junglers will farm their jungle a lot.

THESuperStuntManMar 30, 20162 votes

Cinderhulk has several problems. Straight HP is the worst powerspike of all of the jungle items when completed. It helps the least for jungle clear for a class that needs the most help with it. 15% bonus health is so miniscule that it doesn't even really scale. Because of these, it's only good on champions with strong hp scaling (Sion, Volibear, Sejuani) and pretty much no one else.

LankPantsMar 30, 20161 votes

Because of these, it's only good on champions with strong hp scaling...Sejuani

I'd disagree, It's almost always better to build Runic Echoes on Sej. The only time when Cinder's stronger IMO is when you're VS a full physical damage team and the HP becomes stronger because of multipliers.

THESuperStuntManMar 30, 20161 votes

Fair enough. I haven't tested Echoes on Sej, and I thought that Cinderhulk would be comparable after the Echoes nerf.

MunchCrunchLunchMar 30, 20161 votes

I stopped buying cinderhulk. I either go runic or simply just go straight for sunfire without finishing my jg item unless am playing sion. its not worth it otherwise.

ClapDatAsheMar 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I stopped buying cinderhulk. I either go runic or simply just go straight for sunfire without finishing my jg item unless am playing sion. its not worth it otherwise.

item 1401 on Sion is the only Sion I play.

Think of the Soul Furnace Passive + Strength of the Ages Mastery. Stack on a item 3071 Black Cleaver, build tank, and destroy lanes with 6k HP. It's outstanding. The damage isn't there, but you become the ultimate (quite literally) front-liner!

Sion : "Chaaaaaaarge!"

LooknookMar 30, 20162 votes

Vayne

SpoofghoulMar 30, 20162 votes

or build devourer on him with stormraiders surge and people are no longer willing to kill you

LazyW0lfMar 30, 20161 votes

What if Cinderhulk turned into Strength of the Ages and they added a new keystone mastery? Along with the item having item 3068 passive to help clear.

Strength of the Ages is almost useless in lane since it takes so long to fully stack when compared to the jungle.

DealthMar 30, 20162 votes

No because you don't want to turn it into an afk farming item item 1415

But i agree with it being useless in lane, it always bothers me when people take it in lane.

DengedenMar 30, 20161 votes

Gragas Sejuani RekSai

The problem with Cinderhulk is how low the risk of buying it is. It let's you tank more and you're getting damage out of the burn and whatever your healthscaling ability is.

SlaktarTaskenMar 30, 20165 votes

{quoted}

The problem with Cinderhulk is how low the risk of buying it is. It let's you tank more and you're getting damage out of the burn and whatever your healthscaling ability is.

The burn damage is negligable and only effective vs monsters, merely half of what sunfire cape does vs champions and it doesn't give any armor, while only being 75 gold cheaper than sunfire cape, it's so bad that I sometimes skip it entirely and simply rush sunfire cape instead, it is the most expensive jungler item, it shouldn't be. It's price should be on par with the others or cheaper.

DengedenMar 30, 20161 votes

Every little bit of damage helps, otherwise, missing runes wouldn't be so noticeable and my point stands, getting more tanky has no risk to it

WadeWilson1337Mar 30, 20163 votes

...Oh god youre serious. Getting tanky has no risk? Really? If you build more tanky, you have less damage. THERE IS ALWAYS A DRAWBACK TO ANY ITEMIZATION CHOICE. If you build a item 3742 on Rek'sai second, that means you cant build item 3748 . Sure, you get some movespeed and 50 armor, but you miss out on ALOT of damage by not going titanic. This is just the first example i could think of, there is always a drawback to going tanky as a tank item will quite simply never give as much damage as a proper damage item for that champion.

The burn from Cinderhulk is so laughable basically every tank jungler just goes Runic/Warrior into sunfire cape. The burn is nice, but its become the exact opposite of what Cinderhulk used to be. People would take Cinderhulk simply because it was so much better than sunfire cape, but now people are doing the exact opposite. The item is way too weak.

I was LupxelMar 30, 20161 votes

I don't even know Cinderhulk works. Sometime Redbuff is at 1hp, and I stop atacking him to let Cinderhulk finish the job, and... it deals no damage LoL?

LittleBlastMar 30, 20163 votes

It does that so you can fonate buffs. That is an intended feature

SP DodgecityMar 30, 20161 votes

Tanks are tanks, Fighters are fighters. If someone is a carry and a tank then in my opinion that is broken. Why create a champ that is incredibly powerful and incredibly difficult to kill? Makes literal no sense.

Example Malphite , He's like a tank assassin, he builds full tank and maybe one AP item MAYBE, and he can do almost 1000 damage to an enemy with his ult and combo..... plus he is easy to play and incredibly hard to kill if built correctly.

A tank should never outdamage or do as much damage as an Assassin, APC, or ADC.

Chaotic SageMar 30, 20162 votes

Literally recently did this. Played him in the jungle, went Runic and then just full tank and did the most damage in the game...

SP DodgecityMar 31, 20161 votes

exactly haha, I had a game where there was a poppy.. full tank, but had one single AD item.. and she carried their team. She couldn't die and she did tons of damage