DFG left a niche that Liandry's doesn't fill

Mandaari··3 votes·686 views

#The Problem There isn't any item in the game to help a burst caster deal with health stacking. Liandy's is only good if you're consistently applying it. It sucks for champions that need to put out one combo and blow someone up with that one combo. DFG helped there. With it gone, there's nothing burst casters can do. But DFG should not comeback as it was.

The problem with DFG was that it blew up tanks and squishies. Why? Percent max health damage is incredibly strong against anyone. It doesn't matter how much health they have, a 30% nuke is 30% of anyone's health (it's actually less effective against tanks because they have more MR).


#My solution Before I put out my solution, something needs to be released to fill that void. I'm just throwing something out. Whatever it is, the item should be effective against high health/tanky champions, but very ineffective against squishy champions.

Deathfire's Grasp -> Blasting Wand + Blasting Wand + 400g 80 AP Unique Passive: Your spells gain (0.015 x Enemy Bonus Health)% magic penetration. Unique Active: Deals 200 + (40% of a target's Bonus Health) magic damage. 90 second cooldown.

#Why I chose these stats/effects:

**General design - **For a burst champion, this item should be exceptionally powerful against tanks that would otherwise be impossible to deal with, but have very little effect on anyone else. When you buy this item you're basically saying "I'm buying this because I need to focus my build on you and you alone." To that end, it should be OK if it's strong against that kind of champion, as long as it's junk against everyone else. Think niche pick like Thornmail; It's only strong against auto attacks, but it supplies enough armor to not be 100% useless against everyone else. This item really isn't too effective until the tank reaches raid boss status either. **AP - **There isn't a ton. It's a good contribution to your AP, but there are better choices out there damage-wise. This makes it less effective against squishy champions, but not worthless. **Passive - **Yes, this stacks additively with void staff, but it scales off of enemy bonus health with no base amount. Against a champion with little to no bonus health this passive is utterly worthless by design, yet it's very effective against someone with a lot of bonus health and MR. If your opponent has 2,000 bonus health (probably around 4.5k total) then together with Void Staff you'll have about 75% magic pen. Yes, that's absurdly high by design. **Active - **Unless you have a boatload of AP you're not going to deal 4.5k damage in anything resembling burst. The best way to deal high damage is through percent health, but then we're back to the old DFG. The difference here is that it focuses on bonus health. Against someone with 2,000 bonus health you'll get 1,000 damage out of the active before resistances are applied. Again, absurdly strong by design, but only against high health champions. Against someone with 200 or so bonus health you'll get 240 damage from it before resistances. It's something, but not worth the gold investment.

The biggest downside I can think of with this is if someone who deals consistent magic damage buys the item, like Cassy or Azir. They would melt tanks with this item. That might be OK as long as they're ineffective against squishies.

#TL;DR Burst casters can't deal with tanks and need an item that is only effective against tanks. Liandry's doesn't fulfill that niche for burst casters.

15 Comments

Kuroi863 votes

item 3135

Talamare3 votes

Want to know the Mage's solution to health stackers?

item 3089

Stack enough AP and it doesn't matter if you have 4k hp

Also if they have 4k hp they SHOULD be allowed to survive your burst... They spent all their gold to get there

Mandaari1 votes

Even if you have 800 AP you're not going to touch a raid boss tank. Think full build Mundo with 300+ MR.

If they spent all of their gold to get there and you buy this item, he basically is forcing you to be much less effective against his team's carries. Tank protects his team by becoming forcing you to address him.

Talamare1 votes

{quoted}

Even if you have 800 AP you're not going to touch a raid boss tank. Think full build Mundo with 300+ MR.

If they spent all of their gold to get there and you buy this item, he basically is forcing you to be much less effective against his team's carries. Tank protects his team by becoming forcing you to address him.

300 MR basically doesn't exist anymore, at most you will see is around 200 or else he will basically die instantly to physical damage.

200 MR under pressure of a void staff, sorc shoes and masteries is already down to like 90 MR

4k with 90 mr is only 7600 effective health

Mandaari1 votes

That's the point. If they die to physical damage then you don't need this item. You're gimping your performance elsewhere by buying it.

Only 7600 effective health? 7600 EH is a lot. I don't think any burst caster can deal that much even with true damage.

Tusutaki1 votes

300 MR? More like around 220 and thats being generous.

70% of 220 is 66

66 - 20 from magic pen flats = 46

46MR = 32% damage reduction

2000 bonus health - (1000 x .32) = 680 from the active

A full rotation of spells from any burst mage will instantly delete any tanks or drop them down to around 20-30% and then the adc's or assassins will finish them off.

LongFur Fox3 votes

I would agree if we were in season 1 or 2 with tanks running rampant unable to get killed unless focused for a long time. However tanks are currently not that durable and if focused by a burst caster will still go down in the second rotation (which will not happen against bruisers but will happen against tanks).

Also I fail to understand why it is healthy from a strategic point of view to have burst casters being able to burst tanks. Sure the assassins would like that but tanks are meant to cause chaos, stay in the fight, and draw focus. If you can burst him in a single rotation then as soon as you buy that item every tank is just going to sell all his mr (since it does nothing now) and be useless.

Mandaari1 votes

What better way is there to draw focus than to force someone to address you by changing their build? Again, the point is that getting this item makes you unable to blow up squishies. If it doesn't do that then change the item. You might be right that it's too strong vs tanks, or it's not ineffective enough vs squishies, but those are numbers changes. The important thing is that it's not effective against both tanks and squishies like the old DFG.

LongFur Fox1 votes

As an assassin you are still going to blow up squishies come late game or if you are a bit ahead even if you buy a tankbuster only item. Especially if the item has 80 ap on it. Now I can understand if you want to say: with this item you can only blow up tanks and you barely touch squishies. That would be a fair if weird tradeoff. The real question then becomes: are assassins meant to blow up tanks in any circumstance where they are not very fed? I mean tanks literally commit their entire build to avoid what assassins do: blow stuff up fast. As I see it I would much rather have a tank item that said "if this target is an assassin you have point and clikc insta kill" since tanks are meant to counter assassins. Now the item I propose is not good either and this is just voicing my own opinion but I think your idea is fundamentally flawed and it is not a matter of right or wrong numbers on the item.

Wullf2 votes

Well thing is, burst casters should not be effective against tanks. Or should they?

Mandaari1 votes

If you're dedicating your build to deal with tanks then yes, they should be as long as it comes with the cost of not being able to gib squishies.

Tusutaki1 votes

Too strong against tanks. With 2k bonus HP which a tank would most likely have, thats 30% magic pen. Combined with void staff, thats 65-70% with masteries.

With 70% magic pen and 15+ magic pen flat, that would destroy the tank's entire purpose. Especially with the active. That would make someone like Leblanc instantly delete the likes of Mundo. Why would anyone choose a tank when this item is around?

Mandaari1 votes

Because, if designed correctly, Leblanc would be able to nearly delete Mundo but be incapable of deleting carries. A tank's job is to force you to take focus away from his carries. If you're forcing a caster to modify their build path to the point of ineffectiveness against carries then I'd say you're doing a pretty good job as a tank.

Talamare1 votes

Let's be honest burst casters can still burst tanks, it at best just takes 2 rotations

Talamare1 votes

7600 EHP is paper... No burst caster might be able to take that out in 1 try, but they usually can in 2

Also no burst caster even SHOULD be able to take that out

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