I Still Want to Know Why Koggy's Ult Didn't Get an AP Ratio Bump

Rebonack·Nov 15, 2014·19 votes·2,108 views

After Riot dinged his base damage to keep AD Koggy in check.

AP MF and AP Ez get love, so why not Koggy?

35 Comments

RebonackNov 15, 20148 votes

AP Koggy already had a fair bit of his kit power shifted to Athenes when it was added to the game ages ago. And then Athenes got nerfed. And now mana regen in general is getting nerfed. And recently Koggy got his base damage nerfed again.

It just isn't very encouraging for Koggy players who enjoy his non-right-click focused builds.

LaughingStaplerNov 16, 20145 votes

Honestly, I think the Lich Bane nerf hurt him even harder. Although, S5 Athene's will possibly be a bigger nerf than even his ult's bonus damage. He definitely needs a little love.

AD Kog doesn't rely on his ult. and the nerfs were more of an early game nerf. For AP Kog though, the whole kit relies on the ult. and this hurt him a lot at every phase. I get that they want to keep AD Kog's laning phase weak but they could change the way the ult. works with levels or improve the AP ratio enough to bring it back to previous levels late game. People need to be rewarded for getting to late-game with a hyper-carry (which AP Kog used to be as well) and also their precision/anticipation with an all skillshot champ.

ofartNov 16, 20146 votes

As a previous AP Kog main, I feel for you. All that sexy AD Kog LCS play led to nerfs that nearly killed my favorite way to play Kog. AP Kog plays so differently from AD Kog that I feel it's as grave as if they just deleted Yasuo. AP Kog may not be the most popular but I wish Riot thought about his fans too when considering their nerfs. They could have scaled the ult.'s bonus damage with levels as has been done on many other champions. For a champion with all skillshots, his ult. should feel more rewarding.

I actually made a similar thread HERE. Please write some of your thoughts there too so Riot will maybe respond. If they can give a bump to AP Ezreal and MF, I don't see why not Kog (a champion played mostly for his iconic long-range ult.).

Sire HippingtonNov 16, 20146 votes

Cause ap-kogs ult still deals more than enough damage, and faceing a ultspaming ap-kog is still about the least fun thing in league.

if they would buff Q ap-ratio i would be happy though, the reduced it to 0.5 from 0.7 while makeing it a skillshot(unreliable) and then also nerfed Lichbane.

ofartNov 16, 20144 votes

You could make the same argument vs any poke champion. If you can't deal with it, it's a team composition problem. He's a lot like Ziggs and Xerath. His ult. is spammable only in brief spurts. You can try 2-3 times and then have to wait for the mana cost to reset or you're in danger of running yourself oom almost instantly if a fight breaks out. The most you can do full build and levels realistically is Q-E and throw out your ult 7-8 times. You'll be completely oom by the end though.

Sire HippingtonNov 16, 20142 votes

Athenes+AA+Bluebuff are nearly infinte mana, u can use ur ult 10-15 times in a row, and ur manareg at low mana is so high that u will always be abale to cast ur basc skills and probably regen enough for another 4-6ults in the only 6sec ult downtime, not to mention the manarestore on kill/assist.

And the difference between xerath/ziggs and kog: Kog got 1800range, 200 aoe, 0.6sek delay and no cd, not even a flash malph ult could engage on that range Ziggs got 850-1400(with bounces)range, ~0.4-1sec delay depending on distance and 150aoe on 4(2.4with cdr)sek cd. His effecktive pokerange is about ~1100, on higher distance it becomes highly unreliable, which is within range of many hardengages. Xerath got 750-1400range, but needs to charge for 1.5sec till he gets max range, slowing him self by 50%, 5(3with cdr)sek cd. He opens a nice opportunity to engage with his selfslow.

I also wonder if u consider Xerath/ziggs fun to face and think they offer alot player-interaction

Ap Kog needs quite some time to get roling, so u often can win early, but if he reaches lvl 16 with coregear, he allows no counterplay, as u gain no meaningfull advantage or window by dodgeing his ult. His post 16 ultspam playstyle is highly toxic, it'S the least interactive skill in the gmae(as no other champion can act on 1800 range constantly. It's also a bad sign if u only use 25% of a champions kit, and most ap-kogs do just that, ult and nothing else besides cultch cases, and it's extremly effecktive post lvl16.

I'm not against ap-kog, but he should need to use all his skills(and all his skills have ap-ratios btw), and not just win games by spamming his ult from 1800 range all game long.

LaughingStaplerNov 16, 20145 votes

A competent team doesn't idle around a level 16 AP Kog but rather split-pushes, flanks etc. If they sit around getting poked and even letting Kog regen mana in the meantime, it means they have no strategy and thus no hope of winning. If it was that easy, you'd have seen him as an AP mid in the LCS at every chance compared to the occurrences that can be counted on one hand even pre-nerf.

Being poked by champions who depend on it to be viable isn't "toxic", especially when they have ramping mana costs. AP Kog and all poke oriented champions punish incompetent strategy and indecisiveness. They trade raw reliable damage with higher vulnerability (ex: Riven, Tryndamere) for less damage that needs to be aimed but can be output safely (AP Kog, Ziggs, Xerath, AP Nidalee). Keep in mind that while Kog has a slow, he lacks a stun like Xerath or Syndra to get out of a dive. If you had an easy retaliation, they would be completely unviable. A strategy you might not like isn't toxic just because the counter isn't as primitive as just smacking them back. Moreover, you can dodge/be less predictable in your movements anyway. Most of the champions in this game have plenty of dashes or movement speed boosts to make that even easier.

Your math is also highly exaggerated and just flat out wrong. Based on that description, I'd expect every AP Kog player to be Diamond+. AP Kog's one of my mains. I've played hundreds of games with him and studied him in incredible depth but my best ranking was still only G2 post-nerf. I actually do even better on my main account with Swain, Blitz, Amumu etc. despite much less experience and study. I looked you up to see how your Kog games were but it seems like you have only played him 2x ranked in S4. Your 21-2 record with Pantheon is pretty amazing though.

Kog ult mana costs and usage:

40 (1) -40 80 (2) -120 120 (3) -240 160 (4) -400 200 (5) -600 240 (6) -840 280 (7) -1120 320 (8) -1440 360 (9) -1800 400 (10) -2200

mana pool = 255+40*18 = 975 + tear = 1975 @ level 18

As you can see, you can basically never throw out more than 9 ults with a regular build while also using your other skills. Moreover, if you run dry, even the best regen in the world won't let you have "enough for another 4-6 ults". Blue buff and Athene's won't regen 840 mana in 6 seconds. Also, the more regen you buy, the weaker your ult will be.

You also won't win many games "just spamming his ult from 2200 range all game long". Firstly, because his range isn't 2200 and never was. It's 1800 range. Secondly, because again, you CANNOT just spam his ult. The only way that poke works is if you throw out 3-4, wait 6 seconds and do it again. That amount of poke is actually quite manageable but significantly less than a Ziggs (who doesn't have the downtime windows and also needs fewer items). If you go for more than that, you risk being too weak to any engage and having no mana almost immediately. The vulnerability window is too dangerous unless you have a perfect counter-engage comp. and Blue. All it takes is one Pantheon ult at that point, as I'm sure you know. But again, I have to question any team that lets you aim 3-4 ults, reset mana costs after 6 sec rinse/repeat. It sounds to me like that team is either falling asleep or has already lost and is probably idling about at a Nexus turret.

RebonackNov 16, 20142 votes

A competent team doesn't idle around a level 16 AP Kog but rather split-pushes, flanks etc. If they sit around getting poked and even letting Kog regen mana in the meantime, it means they have no strategy and thus no hope of winning. If it was that easy, you'd have seen him as an AP mid in the LCS at every chance compared to the occurrences that can be counted on one hand even pre-nerf.

I think it's worth noting that Riot does take into account players that aren't highly skilled when they're buffing and nerfing things. AP Koggy is, as you've pointed out, really frustrating to play against at lower skill levels. As silly as it might sound, that does need to be considered when it comes to buffs.

's why I suspect the safest place to buff AP Kog would be on his W ratio. That's his least safe skill, but also a quite iconic one in its own right. That, and an AP ratio on his passive would still be hilarious.

ofartNov 16, 20142 votes

A competent team doesn't idle around a level 16 AP Kog but rather split-pushes, flanks etc. If they sit around getting poked and even letting Kog regen mana in the meantime, it means they have no strategy and thus no hope of winning. If it was that easy, you'd have seen him as an AP mid in the LCS at every chance compared to the occurrences that can be counted on one hand even pre-nerf.

I think it's worth noting that Riot does take into account players that aren't highly skilled when they're buffing and nerfing things. AP Koggy is, as you've pointed out, really frustrating to play against at lower skill levels. As silly as it might sound, that does need to be considered when it comes to buffs.

's why I suspect the safest place to buff AP Kog would be on his W ratio. That's his least safe skill, but also a quite iconic one in its own right. That, and an AP ratio on his passive would still be hilarious.

This would be potentially dangerous. The reason is that W helps AD Kog a lot (especially with how much AS he builds) and isn't dodgeable. It's also critical to his laning and costs no mana so there's a risk to him becoming both obnoxious and a stronger hypercarry. The safest buff is on his Q because it's a slow, hard to hit skillshot with mediocre range (not the safest in teamfights) by Kog's standards. It also doesn't go through minions so it's not really going to improve his laning. I think Riot could easily bring it back to .7 or even make it .75 to compensate for the ult. nerfs and he'd still be significantly weaker than he used to be.

If you mean just to improve the AP ratio on W, that indeed would be fairly safe. If AP Kog is in range to auto, it's usually because he got caught or is chasing. They could bump it up to 1.25% and it still wouldn't mean much of anything for AP Kog while AD Kog still wouldn't buy AP items. While this would be a safe buff, I don't think it addresses his problems. Although, I suppose it would encourage more risk taking by AP Kog players.

Whether you like to play against him or not, let's be objective here. AP Kog wasn't considered OP even before ANY nerfs this year. He was probably OP in S2 when Froggen played him (he was still one of the few to have great success with him) and then got nerfed way harder than he ever did this year. Every pro team knew about him for years and yet he still was chosen in almost no matches for serious competitive play. As such, I think it's silly to debate about how strong he is when he already received many indirect (LB, Athene's, assassin buffs, mobility meta, high early damage JGs) and direct nerfs (Q, MS, health, ult) due to AD Kog's dominance. Thus, the least they could do is bring the ult.'s scaling back to 125% for level 16.

RebonackNov 16, 20141 votes

Whether you like to play against him or not, let's be objective here. AP Kog wasn't considered OP even before ANY nerfs this year. He was probably OP in S2 when Froggen played him (he was still one of the few to have great success with him) and then got nerfed way harder than he ever did this year. Every pro team knew about him for years and yet he still was chosen in almost no matches for serious competitive play. As such, I think it's silly to debate about how strong he is when he already received many indirect (LB, Athene's, assassin buffs, mobility meta, high early damage JGs) and direct nerfs (Q, MS, health, ult) due to AD Kog's dominance. Thus, the least they could do is bring the ult.'s scaling back to 125% for level 16.

I really, really think it is worth reiterating that AP Koggy was only picked up after Athene's was added to the game. That's what got him nerfed. Or more specifically, he had a large chunk of his kit power shifted to Athene's. Basically, Athene's is an OP item and so AP Koggy took it in the ass because it exists.

Sadly, this has happened to quite a few Mages over the years. New, broken item gets added to the game and their kit suffers nerfs because of it.

Sailor MintNov 17, 20141 votes

Riot has been actively trying to keep AP Kog under control.

When he's strong, he's mainly impacting low and extremely high elo.

RebonackNov 17, 20141 votes

Riot has been actively trying to keep AP Kog under control.

When he's strong, he's mainly impacting low and extremely high elo.

Which would be a good reason to boost the AP ratio on things that aren't his Ult, right?

That would improve his viability without making his most punishing skill to snowbally.

Sire HippingtonNov 16, 20141 votes

U highly underestimate the regen from athenes+bluebuff, I actually tested Kog to see if my estimated numbers were right after writeing the post, and i was able to do 12 ultcasts befor runnung out of mana, which is within my estimated 10-15ults I also was able to do 4 ults 6 secs after running oom, which again is within my estimated 4-6 ults.

I also never said that Kog is op or that u can't win as a team vs him, but the fact that his 1800 range(which actually was 2200 in the past) poke is extremly spamable and potent makes him a extremly toxic champion to face once he reaches 16+3big items.

Ur also implying that kog plays 1v5 or with really idotic mate. Expecting that a team with ap kog doesn't run a proper 4-1 siege+splitpush comp is rather stupid. Flanking a Pokecomp means they lack proper vision and disengage. Winning by splitpushing means they either failed to have a strong splitpusher themself or ur splitpusher is simply far enough ahead. Overall, it's always the same with pokecops, if u get an early lead against them and establish mapcontroll for the midgame u will have a rather easy win. If u fall behind and they get mapcontroll, ur chances to come back are rather little. Hoverever, vs most pokecomps u can actually force a fight by landing a skillshot cc or having hardengage. Kog however has more range than any cc or engage, so with proper warding he can siege a tower with only a support by his side for the disegage, allowing 3 members to roam/splitpush. Since his early is rather weak, chances are good that he falls behind early and his team won't be able to reclame mapcontroll, so he looses, but in those games there he hets going he is pretty toxic to face. Thats like with poppy, she has a bad early and can generally be dealt with, but once she gets going she allow nearly no counterplay and is a really toxic beast to face.

also, kogs ult poke with the 3 casts, 6 sec wait is stronger than ziggs, simply cause it has nearly double the range, ur much less vulnerable to flanking(especially with proper warding) or supprise engages. And if u manage ur mana probably, u will never have a real window, as u will always be able to cast all ur basic skills, which are pretty strong on their own. And nope, pants ult is bullshit since the nerf, it takes 5 sec, 2 off them are telegraphed for the enemy team. U can use it for towerdives as enemys rarly run away from the tower, or for overall mapmobillity, but it's not working as hardengage on a specific target.

And for ur last Question: 1800range! if u don't have visioncontroll for flanking or are far enough ahead to force a fight under tower, there is no way u can apply any pressure on kog in those 6 sec(asuming his teamates aren't stupid and they are having some disangage for the lategame-poke-god)

Also, having the needed coordination to counter a pokecomp is standart in proplay, but rar in soloQ. Pokecomps are in generall rarly seen with succes in porplay, especially if they have a poor early like ap-kog(and yet he was rather succesfull in korea befor the nerfs)

As a sidenote, u can't really judge from ur performance on the overall status of a champion. I have 21-2, yet i wouldn't say he's generally op, nor are others complaining. However, i do think pants early game, especially at top, is incredible toxic. There is not much most toplaners can do vs the spearspam, and the passive+heartseaker wins nerly all all-ins. Also, i main top and thus rarly play ap-kog in rankeds, but i play him more often in normals.

atomicwitNov 17, 20141 votes

U highly underestimate the regen from athenes+bluebuff, I actually tested Kog to see if my estimated numbers were right after writeing the post, and i was able to do 12 ultcasts befor runnung out of mana, which is within my estimated 10-15ults I also was able to do 4 ults 6 secs after running oom, which again is within my estimated 4-6 ults.

I also never said that Kog is op or that u can't win as a team vs him, but the fact that his 1800 range(which actually was 2200 in the past) poke is extremly spamable and potent makes him a extremly toxic champion to face once he reaches 16+3big items.

Ur also implying that kog plays 1v5 or with really idotic mate. Expecting that a team with ap kog doesn't run a proper 4-1 siege+splitpush comp is rather stupid. Flanking a Pokecomp means they lack proper vision and disengage. Winning by splitpushing means they either failed to have a strong splitpusher themself or ur splitpusher is simply far enough ahead. Overall, it's always the same with pokecops, if u get an early lead against them and establish mapcontroll for the midgame u will have a rather easy win. If u fall behind and they get mapcontroll, ur chances to come back are rather little. Hoverever, vs most pokecomps u can actually force a fight by landing a skillshot cc or having hardengage. Kog however has more range than any cc or engage, so with proper warding he can siege a tower with only a support by his side for the disegage, allowing 3 members to roam/splitpush. Since his early is rather weak, chances are good that he falls behind early and his team won't be able to reclame mapcontroll, so he looses, but in those games there he hets going he is pretty toxic to face. Thats like with poppy, she has a bad early and can generally be dealt with, but once she gets going she allow nearly no counterplay and is a really toxic beast to face.

also, kogs ult poke with the 3 casts, 6 sec wait is stronger than ziggs, simply cause it has nearly double the range, ur much less vulnerable to flanking(especially with proper warding) or supprise engages. And if u manage ur mana probably, u will never have a real window, as u will always be able to cast all ur basic skills, which are pretty strong on their own. And nope, pants ult is bullshit since the nerf, it takes 5 sec, 2 off them are telegraphed for the enemy team. U can use it for towerdives as enemys rarly run away from the tower, or for overall mapmobillity, but it's not working as hardengage on a specific target.

And for ur last Question: 1800range! if u don't have visioncontroll for flanking or are far enough ahead to force a fight under tower, there is no way u can apply any pressure on kog in those 6 sec(asuming his teamates aren't stupid and they are having some disangage for the lategame-poke-god)

Also, having the needed coordination to counter a pokecomp is standart in proplay, but rar in soloQ. Pokecomps are in generall rarly seen with succes in porplay, especially if they have a poor early like ap-kog(and yet he was rather succesfull in korea befor the nerfs)

As a sidenote, u can't really judge from ur performance on the overall status of a champion. I have 21-2, yet i wouldn't say he's generally op, nor are others complaining. However, i do think pants early game, especially at top, is incredible toxic. There is not much most toplaners can do vs the spearspam, and the passive+heartseaker wins nerly all all-ins. Also, i main top and thus rarly play ap-kog in rankeds, but i play him more often in normals.

His range didn't change, only the tooltip did.

BTW: I think Pantheon is a well-balanced champ because his late isn't so great. He's strong early-mid to make up for it and that's just fine. Kog is the opposite. Trist is strange and has a strong early, weak mid and strong late etc., each champ's power curve is balanced in its own way. Personally I use TP defensively vs Pantheon and generally survive lane.

Sire HippingtonNov 17, 20141 votes

Ok, his range didn't change, but as someone playing kog since his release, the 2.200range it always said is burned into my mind

ofartNov 17, 20141 votes

U highly underestimate the regen from athenes+bluebuff, I actually tested Kog to see if my estimated numbers were right after writeing the post, and i was able to do 12 ultcasts befor runnung out of mana, which is within my estimated 10-15ults I also was able to do 4 ults 6 secs after running oom, which again is within my estimated 4-6 ults.

I also never said that Kog is op or that u can't win as a team vs him, but the fact that his 1800 range(which actually was 2200 in the past) poke is extremly spamable and potent makes him a extremly toxic champion to face once he reaches 16+3big items.

Ur also implying that kog plays 1v5 or with really idotic mate. Expecting that a team with ap kog doesn't run a proper 4-1 siege+splitpush comp is rather stupid. Flanking a Pokecomp means they lack proper vision and disengage. Winning by splitpushing means they either failed to have a strong splitpusher themself or ur splitpusher is simply far enough ahead. Overall, it's always the same with pokecops, if u get an early lead against them and establish mapcontroll for the midgame u will have a rather easy win. If u fall behind and they get mapcontroll, ur chances to come back are rather little. Hoverever, vs most pokecomps u can actually force a fight by landing a skillshot cc or having hardengage. Kog however has more range than any cc or engage, so with proper warding he can siege a tower with only a support by his side for the disegage, allowing 3 members to roam/splitpush. Since his early is rather weak, chances are good that he falls behind early and his team won't be able to reclame mapcontroll, so he looses, but in those games there he hets going he is pretty toxic to face. Thats like with poppy, she has a bad early and can generally be dealt with, but once she gets going she allow nearly no counterplay and is a really toxic beast to face.

also, kogs ult poke with the 3 casts, 6 sec wait is stronger than ziggs, simply cause it has nearly double the range, ur much less vulnerable to flanking(especially with proper warding) or supprise engages. And if u manage ur mana probably, u will never have a real window, as u will always be able to cast all ur basic skills, which are pretty strong on their own. And nope, pants ult is bullshit since the nerf, it takes 5 sec, 2 off them are telegraphed for the enemy team. U can use it for towerdives as enemys rarly run away from the tower, or for overall mapmobillity, but it's not working as hardengage on a specific target.

And for ur last Question: 1800range! if u don't have visioncontroll for flanking or are far enough ahead to force a fight under tower, there is no way u can apply any pressure on kog in those 6 sec(asuming his teamates aren't stupid and they are having some disangage for the lategame-poke-god)

Also, having the needed coordination to counter a pokecomp is standart in proplay, but rar in soloQ. Pokecomps are in generall rarly seen with succes in porplay, especially if they have a poor early like ap-kog(and yet he was rather succesfull in korea befor the nerfs)

As a sidenote, u can't really judge from ur performance on the overall status of a champion. I have 21-2, yet i wouldn't say he's generally op, nor are others complaining. However, i do think pants early game, especially at top, is incredible toxic. There is not much most toplaners can do vs the spearspam, and the passive+heartseaker wins nerly all all-ins. Also, i main top and thus rarly play ap-kog in rankeds, but i play him more often in normals.

Are you sure that's without kills/assists? I'm pretty surrpised. In any case though, all this mana regen is getting a heavy nerf in S5.

KzooCrasherNov 15, 20144 votes

AP kog is already strong lets not have riot giving buffs for no reason

ofartNov 16, 20147 votes

He was pretty good but the 25% bonus damage reduction on the ult. is enormous. You need 134 AP to have the same damage as before. Trust me, I've played him hundreds of games on various accounts. My winrate dropped almost 10%. You can still dominate lower ELOs but it doesn't really work at high ELO anymore because teams are much more decisive and don't let you just freely poke them. They also exploit your weak laning phase very hard.

The nerf was meant to hurt AD Kog's laning phase and dramatically nerfed a fun alternative playstyle as a side-effect.

GetOnMyLvLSonNov 15, 20143 votes

They generally focus on a champions primary role first, adc in the case of kog, then generally do something about their sub-roles. Many months(maybe a year) ago they had nerfed Ezreal's AP ratio's because it made him to strong as an adc. With all the preseason stuff coming my guess is that it will be a while before we see anything done about AP kog.

ZirzonNov 16, 20143 votes

I think of ap kog's ult as mostly a bit of bonus damage, where his e is his main source of early damage and waveclear, while his w is very influential late. AP kog is a favorite of mine, and is in fact the only champ I have a ranked penta on. A stronger ult is unnecessary, and would probably encourage low-interaction with the enemy and more of trying to poke them down from a mile away.

ZirzonNov 16, 20142 votes

And I suppose I'll post my Kog build here too. Due to his low mobility, I get flash and heal as my summoner spells. I rush RoA first, which gives me enough mana throughout the entire game, plus some tankiness that makes being caught due to low mobility more forgiving. After this I (the order varies by game) I usually build Nashors, Rabadons, and Zhonyas. My last item varies the most between games, but it usually boils down to wanting survivability or damage. Void staff or Guardian Angel are probably the most likely.

I level my e first, which provides a surprising amount of burst and poke. Secondly I max my w, because at this point in the game people have enough health for percentages to matter. W with Nashors is quite effective until the end of the game.

While AP kog may not seem to be that popular right now, I feel that he is still in a strong place.

atomicwitNov 16, 20142 votes

I would consider adding Tear somewhere there.

ZirzonNov 16, 20141 votes

Surprisingly, I don't really ever seem to have many mana issues. Maybe I just don't spam ult as much as others.

RebonackNov 16, 20143 votes

I can understand Riot being afraid of a really strong AP Koggy. His poke-ult IS a strong skill.

But they could have offset the base damage nerf to his Ult by improving the ratios on his QWE. Or hell, have some fun and give his passive an AP ratio for the lulz.

JustacoNov 16, 20142 votes

As someone who sometimes who likes to play AP Koggles, I really think ap kog needs nerfs if anything. His ult is probably one of the most frustrating things to fight late game. I generally build athene's, archangel staff, and rylai's. This build make his ult ludicrously spammable, high damage, consistent, slowing, and hyper ranged. Thanks to the mana refund on athenes, in a teamfight you can get to 6 or 7 ults before your mana pool is even dented.

So he has an incredibly powerful, spammable ranged slowing ult, and then his other skills actually have pretty high burst.

atomicwitNov 16, 20144 votes

He's great if the enemy clumps (amazing how many teams do this) and stays in your range for long periods. A competent team will not allow this and will flank you or split push. If they don't have a terrible comp., they'll hard engage only after you've just poked (so you oom fast due to ramping mana costs) and do so without clumping. They will also punish the immobility and slow scaling with strong early pressure (some junglers barely gank me at all or have terrible ganks (ex: Shyvana)!).

Remember, his ult.'s not the only thing that got nerfed. His health, base MS and Q scaling also got hit and he possesses no escape. Even before all these nerfs, he was almost never a factor in pro play and that should tell you something because it's not as if he's a new concept. AP Kog WAS popular in S2 and then got nerfed really hard then too. After the nerfs in S4, the few pro teams who had some interesting games showcasing him decided he was no longer viable. Although, even pre-S4 nerf, you could count the number of professional AP Kog games on one hand. This should inform you of his objective strength more than any success you may have at your ELO.

I felt the same way as you when I was Gold 5 but as soon as you play more competent teams who understand what to do, it's not the case at all. Most people at Gold 5 just group (often very helpfully clumping for Kog), don't snowball games/end early, focus too much on farming without zoning/harassing, don't buy appropriate MR items like Locket, don't get/deny vision enough, don't deny Blue and are poor at dodging (often continuing to run straight). I've seen some opponents group mid for as much as 3-5 minutes doing nothing but running around back and forth while I harassed them with blue buff.

AP Kog's not a popular choice and teams often play terribly against it. That's not the same as him being incredibly strong. His power-spike is actually in the deep mid-game rather than truly late. Level 16 is huge but at full build he becomes a lot less effective vs a team that builds correctly. One of the reasons is the MR/health but the other is that the lack of real scaling on the ult. compared to other champions starts to be felt. With that said, if you're fed as AP Kog, you can carry pretty hard. Although, I carry even harder as a fed Orianna, Ziggs and Xerath. However, saying he's strong because his late is good is way too simplistic. You don't instantly get to late game with comparable gold or at all. By that standard, everyone would play only Tristana, Vayne, Karthus etc. AP Kog's results in Plat+ according to sites that track it specifically fell quite a bit under 50% despite being very underplayed (it's mostly guys that main him and should have very high skill for him). Objectively, he is definitely not a top tier mid-laner unless you make a pact with the enemy team to afk farm till 16.

JustacoNov 16, 20141 votes

To some extent I do agree with you. One problem I will admit he has is needing too many items to get going.

He's great if the enemy clumps (amazing how many teams do this) and stays in your range for long periods. A competent team will not allow this and will flank you or split push. If they don't have a terrible comp., they'll hard engage only after you've just poked (so you oom fast due to ramping mana costs) and do so without clumping. They will also punish the immobility and slow scaling with strong early pressure

I have to point out how absurd his range is at level 16, if someone has to leave that range they are being zoned pretty hard. Being flanked and split pushing is as much a problem on ad kog as it is on ap, and that comes down to positioning and smart play. And I would be less afraid of a hard engage on ap kog than ad. I would say AD Kog is better at high consistent damage, but AP Kog has actually a decent amount of burst. On top of that with the health from rylai's and the shield on seraph's he is actually not too squishy. I also think you underestimate the mana sustain in the athene's tear combination. The mana refund on kill or assist is actually incredibly helpful in maintaining his ult spam. Outside of a fight 3 ults won't really matter much, and in a full brawl, given a few of them die, you can make it to 9 ults and still have a third of your mana left, then you can just wait a few seconds and start the barrage again.

Also Im not sure I would take my rank very seriously, I played ranked for literally 1 week to just to get rewards. Im sure if I played more I would still climb.

ofartNov 18, 20141 votes

I've recently gone through Kog's winrates in Gold+ Solo/Ranked 5s and despite his pick rate falling through the floor since the repeated nerfs (<2% - meaning more expert Kog mains), his winrate hasn't improved. It has actually gone down quite a bit. I didn't realize AD Kog was struggling too but then again, I haven't seen him picked once in the Expansion tournament.

I think all they need to do to make both Kog's as attractive as other champions is bring back the level 16 ult. to the same force that it was. It's fine if they nerf the level 6 and 11 a little bit.

Anyway, I thought the point of this place was for Riot to communicate more with us and address our concerns. This thread has received quite a few upvotes so I was really hoping for Riot to shed some light onto their thoughts regarding AP/AD Kog's balance atm.

insaiyanbaccaNov 18, 20141 votes

im confused as to why this didnt happen too. ap kog is my favorite form of kog(probably because im the worst adc ever) so i don't get why this hasnt happened

LaughingStaplerNov 20, 20141 votes

R@16 = 160+160(1) [320] vs 160+160(1.25) [360] 320+x*.3=360 x= 133.33 or ~134 AP since you can't get fractional AP values.

His damage was reduced 11.1% (1-320/360) on his primary damage tool. You need 134 AP to attain previous level 16 values and it's not as if he was a contested pick or considered OP then either (outside of ADC).

If he was pick/ban status as an AP mid in LCS, I'd understand but that wasn't even close to the case. Only AD Kog was a hot pick. Thus, the nerfs are a huge overreaction by Riot as far as the AP Kog playstyle is concerned and he needs some compensation buffs. A stronger late game is needed to offset his terrible early game and mediocre CC. His mid-game/emerging late game is admittedly quite good but the deep late game is severely hampered by his poor ult. scaling and reduced base. I'd now rather have a Karthus, Kayle or Katarina and they have more manageable early games (allowing you to actually fight to win the lane instead of merely getting some farm).

According to elobuff.com, AP Kog's winrate in Diamond this month is 46%. This is very unimpressive considering basically only specialists who know him inside and out still play him. After all, the pick-rate of AD & AP Kog combined is only 1.5% averaged in all leagues. Moreover, I know many people don't use him as a general mid but rather only for specific team comps where he's supposed to shine.

LaughingStaplerNov 23, 20141 votes

It's more of a side note but many of the S5 changes indirectly hurt AP Kog'Maw. Here's why:

He scales with Mpen more than AP (most builds don't even incorporate Rabadon's). As such, the first Dragon buff isn't as meaningful on him as for most mages. However, he scales great with gold and levels. The previous Dragon helped him accelerate his build. It's now quite a bit harder to reach a late game build.
He's weak early and not as strong at controlling Dragon as most mages. This can quickly lead to snowballing for the enemy team. Previously, it was just a gold and experience loss but now you're gimped forever if you can't get Dragons. Even the seemingly not so disastrous buffs like the 3rd Dragon's 5% MS increase make it harder for Kog than most. He's all skillshots and relies on effective poke. That's certainly a lot harder when your opponents move faster.
The pushing power buffs from Dragon and Baron are quite strong. This hurts Kog by shortening the game time significantly and not allowing him to achieve late game status. Moreover, the buff granting bonus damage vs minions makes him less valuable since his great waveclear becomes standard for other champions too.
The new Banner of Command, Ohmwrecker, and Elixirs (ex: Elixir of Sorcery and Elixir of Ruin) make it much harder to fend off attackers when behind in gold.
The new Dragon and the powerful tools now offered to a winning team both make comebacks much harder. The defensive resources have not been similarly buffed. For example, there is Ohmwrecker but no item that strongly buffs turret damage. The game is now more snowbally than ever and most of this is attributed to the way Dragon stacks. This means you're now much more dependent on bot lane doing well so that you don't lose dragons. As a result, the importance of roaming is higher. Unlike Katarina or Ahri, Kog is a mediocre roamer. He has no gap-closer, no hard CC and his damage is rather predictable. Worst of all, if your lane opponent follows or you follow them, it can lead to a quick demise. Kog works best as an impenetrable fortress mid.
Despite Riot's claims, the new turrets feel much weaker and are easier to juggle than before. They barely merit the name.

ofartDec 2, 20141 votes

Last time I tried Chalice on 4.20, it seemed fairly broken. The mana regen was so high that it seemed to have both the old and new regen passives. This is a nice Kog'Maw buff until it's nerfed to expected levels. He depends more on Chalice for poke than basically any other mid.

LaughingStaplerDec 10, 20141 votes

Chalice will restore 2% of missing mana in 4.21. It's still a bit lackluster for a champion as mana hungry as Kog, but anything helps.

That fact that Dragon no longer gives much gold makes it a lot harder to get to your fantasy build in a respectable time. You're deadweight for much longer than before compared to Syndra, Fizz, Zed, Ahri etc. who will be busy getting bot lane fed. Since games a tend to be shorter and more "snowbally," Kog has less of a window to shine. Sieging also seems less effective now due to inner turrets providing a shield as well as more hard engage options via Elixirs, Righteous Glory etc.

It seems Riot is having a hard time balancing Kog. He's either close to unviable in top tier play due to his lack of mobility, mana gating and cooldown gating or he's too strong. Although, his brief time in the sun was mostly due to massive ADC itemization changes. I'd be all for restoring Q's .7 AP ratio. Such a slow and narrow skillshot should be a bit more rewarding.

atomicwitDec 10, 20141 votes

Chalice will restore 2% of missing mana in 4.21. It's still a bit lackluster for a champion as mana hungry as Kog, but anything helps.

The fact that Dragon no longer gives much gold makes it a lot harder to get to your fantasy build in a respectable time. You're deadweight for much longer than before compared to Syndra, Fizz, Zed, Ahri etc. who will be busy getting bot lane fed. Since games a tend to be shorter and more "snowbally," Kog has less of a window to shine. Sieging also seems less effective now due to inner turrets providing a shield as well as more hard engage options via Elixirs, Righteous Glory etc.