@Meddler, i'm afraid your Sona Nerf won't change anything

Sona x Rubick··9 votes·1,087 views

Her win rate went down by 3% http://euw.op.gg/statistics/champion/ but i doubt this makes her balanced.

I'm sure that everyone who plays Sona and play against Sona should know her problem. Right now the problem is in late game the 400/500 hp healing on 4 seconds WITHOUT counterplay. It isn't the heal value the problem (you won't find a perfect number making it not weak/not strong), it isn't the shielding,not the poke, not the uti stun, nor the movement speed, it's the fact that she presses W heals herself and someone for a lot on a low cooldown while having nothing to manage except mana unlike bard/soraka/taric. .

If you gave her restrictions, it would allow her enemies to play around the restriction, while making sona harder to play/less powerful in some case (which should balances her) there are so much restrictions you can give to her (not everything listed should be done):

-i already proposed it, heal on ally is now based on how close she is to her allies, makes her managing her positioning because she would need to be close to her ally, but at the same time she has to decide if she wants to heal, or flee to avoid bruisers/skillshots ect... If it hits her too hard then buff the heal value to compensate. -make her heal projectile disappears if it hits an enemy, not sure about this one but it would still give her enemies a way to deal with her heal. -make her healing the nearest ally instead of the most wounded ally. This one is really simple. Why are you giving the ability to an almost instant, non targable, 1000 range, high heal to automatically target the target that needs heal? this is overpowered as hell, i hope you consider making it healing the nearest ally, "her allies can fuck it up by running near her" well at least it has a downside then, cause right now there aren't any downside. Again if it guts her you can buff the heal to compensate.

33 Comments

Sightless666 votes

400/500 hp healing on 4 seconds

Wow, what items are you buying? I've had a lot of trouble finding out how to build 1,500 to 2,000 AP on Sona. No matter what I build, I just can't ever figure out how to do it, particularly when I'm also maxing out CDR. What's your secret?

nor the movement speed

I actually disagree with you. Personally, I think that having a 100% uptime on a speed boost with only one point is stupid, and I don't think it has any place on her kit. I would toss this in an instant. It's power she definitely doesn't need.

Actually, I kind of disagree with everything you listed. You're complaining that Sona's heal doesn't have counterplay, but honestly, neither does her Q or her E, and her auras have such a huge range that I'm barely even willing to classify them as counterplay. All of her basic abilities lack counterplay in some major way.

As for your proposals, I dislike two of them because as the game goes on, I'm never going to be able to actually play around those. I also think you vastly underestimate the amount of power available in the shield compared to the amount of power in the heal.

heal on ally is now based on how close she is to her allies,

The ally who is weakest changes way, way too often in a teamfight for it to be realistic for me to constantly be near the one who is most hurt. The only way this would work is if it was worth saving the heal to try and get closer to a teammate who was hurt more, but that's always a bad idea because your number 1 priority with Sona's W is getting the shield off. The shield is much stronger than the heal, and I'm never going to make a decision to make the heal slightly more effective if it compromises the W's effectiveness at all. It would be a terrible decision, so it's a decision I don't get to play around.

I see no value to this proposal over straight numbers nerfs. The decision it introduces is so heavily overshadowed by the more important function of the shield that it will never be an actual decision in any fight outside of the laning phase. False choices are annoying, and should be avoided.

-make her healing the nearest ally instead of the most wounded ally.

Again, I actually have very limited decision making power around this ability. Maximizing the shield output will almost always be more important. On top of that, it's just needlessly annoying. This creates much more frustration for the Sona player than necessary because their heal will not be doing anything effective in most teamfight situations, and it will not be worth playing up far enough to make the heal work when it both puts you at risk and decreases your ability to preform the much more important task of providing auras. If we wanted to reduce the heal's effectiveness, we could just nerf it, and that wouldn't introduce the frustration of a false choice.

-make her heal projectile disappears if it hits an enemy,

This one is a more interesting proposal. It actually introduces a source of proactive counterplay instead of just imposing a false choice on Sona, which I like. It's always better if you place the means to counter a champion in the enemy's hands whenever possible. The biggest issue I see with it is that Sona's projectile speed is very fast, which makes the counterplay to just stand between Sona and whoever you think will be hurt the most a second or two from now. It also means that the reward doesn't feel good for the enemy. A small green projectile quickly shoots into my champion instead of theirs. That really lacks viscerality.

To be honest, I don't think Sona's heal is a problem, because it's really just the same as the rest of her kit. Her Q is autotargeted, her auras are huge and extremely easy to tag people with, and her power cords only require an autoattack to make use of. Everything she has is either low counterplay or direct stats. Some people will be annoyed more by her near-guaranteed damage, some will be annoyed by healing, and some will be annoyed by the auras being essentially free to apply (you can see all of these complaints on the boards right now), but the final issue is that everything she does lacks counterplay. She needs more of it across her whole kit.

Personally, I think that the E and the aura ranges are the smartest places to start. Making them less forgiving would increase the risks Sona would have to take to do her job while actually forcing her to take those risks. With your proposals, I could justify getting an ineffective heal if doing so let me use the auras better. There will be no way to justify not getting close enough to allies to use a shorter ranged aura.

Sona x Rubick1 votes

item 3174 improves heal mikael+ardent also improves heal, masteries, all of this with a lot of ap makes her heal for at least 370 (didn't play her in the new patch couldn't play at all cause of irl stuff)

her Q doesn't have counterplay either,my idea for it being changed without being a skillshot (cause it wouldn't be unique else) is change the range to 600-850 or something like that, why her Q is up you have a visual of sona's Q range like rengar's passive, so the enemies could go onto sona. her E does, if you hit sona she has less time on her speed, her bonus ms on allies having no counterplay is like nami.

thank you for your LOGICAL feedback the heal ideas i had.

Sightless662 votes

her E does, if you hit sona she has less time on her speed

It's very weak counterplay. It has more than a 60% uptime even if you take damage, which is very strong, and it provides her with more map mobility than most other supports for only 1 skillpoint because of the out-of-combat mobility. The is no reason for it to have the out-of-combat mobility on top of good in-combat mobility. Her kit absolutely does not need it. It can and should be scrapped.

It and her Q are both very, very low in counterplay. I don't think the W is special in this regard.

I generally think the best way to introduce counterplay to her is through decreasing range. Her range was made more forgiving with her recent changes to aura size, and I frankly don't think that was a smart decision on Riot's part.

Athene's improves heal

That's a bit misleading. Athene's healing value is independent from her own. It's like saying I can pop a 250 heal on Karma every 5 seconds. Technically true, but it disregards that the item itself is the cause, not her shield value or AP ratios. Ardent and Mikhael's at least work off of a champion's actual numbers.

It should also be noted that the Athene's often doesn't go to the person you actually heal. If the shield contacts first, it will proc on whoever you shielded, and that's often not the person you ended up healing.

mikael+ardent also improves heal, masteries, all of this with a lot of ap makes her heal for at least 350

Not her actual W heal. If you build both of those items together (which you won't be able to next patch by the way), then you're going to have a 149.5 base with a .35 ap ratio. You'd need about 571 AP to get 350. With those two items, you're sitting on 60. We'll be generous and say that you're getting 40 AP from runes and masteries (you aren't, but again, we're generous). You'd still need 471 AP from your other 3 items to get to 571. You're not doing that. With an Eye of the Watchers, Athene's and Lichbane, you're sitting at 145. That equals 235.25 total healing from a W.

That's not to say that this value is bad. It isn't. It's just not as high as you claimed it was, and I think it's important to keep an eye on what the numbers realistically are.

Oh, and just to wrap this up: everything that I've just said about her W is actually just strictly stronger for her shield, both numerically and in terms of the number of targets affected. That's worth keeping in mind.

Poske4 votes

55% winrate on sona actually sounds about fine

Dude she is one of the easiest champions in the game

If azir le bl yasuo are balanced at around 45% winrate then its fine to have sona at 55%

Sona x Rubick1 votes

that's actually true, need meddler's opinion on this.

Champion Skin1 votes

It also depends on pick rate Champions who are picked less often have higher win rate since low pick rate often means the people playing the champion is more skilled at the champion on average

Though the effects of pick rate on win rate depend a lot on the champion Like Malphite who has a rather low skill ceiling and skill floor then pick rate will have little effect (easy to pick up and not much room for mastery) However someone like Azir who has a high skill floor and high skill ceiling then pick rate will have a huge effect as Azir is potentially incredibly powerful in the right hands... and pretty horrible in unskilled hands

Chamuel853 votes

She's super squishy. item 3165 item 3123

Sona x Rubick3 votes

items aren't a counter to a champion, just something that help you but it doesn't help to balance. cause taric ect... all those heals are limited by something AND are countered by gravious wounds.

"she's super squishy", right now, this weakness is surpassed by her strength.

Chamuel851 votes

Then she's invincible, and is a 100% win rate.

Partholonian2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lZEEoIgI,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-07-23T16:10:52.941+0000)

items aren't a counter to a champion, just something that help you but it doesn't help to balance. cause taric ect... all those heals are limited by something AND are countered by gravious wounds.

Sona's heals are limited by mana, CDs and positioning, just like Taric's. She's more likely to build mana and CDR items and can be further from an ally and heal them, but any place she stands is much more dangerous than Taric standing in the exact same place. Both have passives that reward basic attacking after you cast spells; Sona getting within AA range of an enemy is in more danger than Taric doing the same even though Taric is melee.

And she provides a lot less defensive benefit to an ally than Taric (who has a shield and a heal like Sona, but also has the armor buff that is up 100% of the time and can cast a stun from the protected ally's location -- and that's before level 6).

"she's super squishy", right now, this weakness is surpassed by her strength.

About half the time it is... every champion's strengths surpass their weaknesses about half the time.

The main way she loses is by dying a lot. So you can also say that if she doesn't die a lot she will probably win, and that makes her look really strong if you ignore the fact that it's really easy to kill her. (And if her enemies ignore that fact, then they'll probably lose. But that's their own fault.)

Spoofghoul1 votes

so shes squishy yet has higher base stats then sion and shen

so we should give sion and shen gigantic buffs now ?

Chamuel851 votes

What? Which base stats? The only one that Sion or Shen lose out to Sona is that she has more maximum mana and more mana regen.

Otherwise Sion AND Shen have more base HP, more base HP regen, more AD, more AD / lvl, more movement speed, more armor, more armor / level, more MR, and actually have MR / level unlike Sona. Literally everything but mana and mana regen. Or do you mean base damages? even then it's debatable.

Spoofghoul1 votes

actually no they have less hp and less armor

the mr is a melee vs ranged thing

Chamuel852 votes

What? I don't own Sona, so I can't verify HER numbers. All her numbers on those two seem less to me... especially according to the league wiki. I mean I guess that I'm no math professor.. but 482 seems lower than 543 or 540... Like I"d rather have $540 over $482. Sona base HP : 482 Sona Base Armor: 20.5 Sion base HP : 543 Sion Base Armor: 23 Shen base HP : 540 Shen Base Armor: 25

SouL1ess2 votes

{quoted}

What? I don't own Sona, so I can't verify HER numbers. All her numbers on those two seem less to me... especially according to the league wiki. I mean I guess that I'm no math professor.. but 482 seems lower than 543 or 540... Like I"d rather have $540 over $482. Sona base HP : 482 Sona Base Armor: 20.5 Sion base HP : 543 Sion Base Armor: 23 Shen base HP : 540 Shen Base Armor: 25

Sona gets higher HP per level than Sion and Shen and would have more HP than those two tanks by level 18.

LankPants1 votes

There's less than a 10 HP difference at lv 18 and Shen and Sion have lower than average HP for good reasons.

Sion's HP is low because he has his passive HP gain which can give him an extra 500 or so HP at lv 18, Shen has lower HP due to his spamable passive shield, which can be on a 2.5 second CD late game.

Spoofghoul1 votes

but those are abilities not base stats

that the same as saying but sona has the highest base movespeed in the game cos aura hurr durr

Meriipu3 votes

Sona is like one of the most mindless champions of all

Sona x Rubick5 votes

Save your energy instead of doing non-related-to-thread post

Meriipu2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lZEEoIgI,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-07-23T16:15:58.430+0000)

Save your energy instead of doing non-related-to-thread post

BUT it is totally related

the core problem is sona is a faceroll aurabot with the occasional ult

Sona x Rubick3 votes

While choosing the right power chorde to use.

i agree that Since her rework she became easier since you can cast every spell at the same time (before had to wait 1 second before casting an other spell), but it isn't related to this thread cause champ difficulty =/=balance, like it was proven multiple time in league when riot nerfed hard champs with low win rate (leblanc) in 6.13 sona was balanced and was still easy.

JustMonika132 votes

item 3123

Feed Daddy1 votes

Y do u think sona is 2 stronk

The Yetii Rider1 votes

You can't give Sona restrictions. Soraka and Taric were made much more difficult to play by their reworks, Sona is necessary for new players to pick up and understand the support role.

Sona x Rubick1 votes

Restrictions have nothing to do with new players

Nunu is by far one of the easiest champ in the game, yet his ulti is so restrained, same for his E range.

imagine if sona's Q target the most wounded enemies in 850 range, that's what her W is right now.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Except that would make it terrible because the player with the most health (and thus the most health missing at any given moment) also has the most MR.

Sightless661 votes

He means targeting the enemy with the highest percentage of missing health, not with the highest raw value of missing health.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Still most likely the tank. The carry sits in the back until they get bursted down, and if they're getting bursted down you probably won't have time to press Q anyway.

Sightless661 votes

Better than right now, where you always hit the tank because they're the closest. This at least gives you the ability to hit the person closest to dying. Would be stronger.

Lady Hammerlock1 votes

The solution Revert it

LankPants1 votes

A 54% winrate isn't that high for a champ like Sona. She's a simple champion who's playstyle is conducive to solo queue, she has a kit that doesn't encourage stupid throws.

It's worth noting that Idol stacking is also getting nerfed next patch, which may have a fairly large effect on Sona.

You also used the region with the highest winrate to try to push your point, which is incredibly disingenuous. Looking at NA and KR (OCE OP.GG returns KR just in English) her winrates are far lower. I know this is disingenuous because you're from NA, if you were going to link a single region it would be NA.

Sona x Rubick1 votes

i'm from EU and used to see EU stats thank you.

LankPants1 votes

I assumed you were from NA because you're posting on an NA account, either way that's not super important, the fact that EU is still by far her highest winrate and other regions are still 0.5-1% lower still stands.

Also 54% really isn't out of line for Sona and 54% is a very high-end estimate. Sona has been at 54% winrate with a surprising amount of regularity even when she's not overpowered. She was at a 54% winrate at the start of the season for a while. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/sona , while League of Graphs is a little slower to update than OP.GG you can still see Sona spiking up well above her current winrate.

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