First rework was to make sure they're all unique and not the same
Similar to the assassin rework, ADC should get a second rework to fixe multiple problems: -Being actually weak in early game -Actually needing their team to survive, as known as, being bad in 1V1 -Not bursting a target in 1 second in late game, because it's not their job.
candidate for this rework: almost everyone
WoonStruck72 votesI second this. A lot of balance issues are actually due to the state, and Riot's expectations, of ADCs, not whatever else Riot decides to nerf.
Velzard of Koz23 votesMy only issue with ADCs is that they should be supposed to take time to kill the target via sustained damage (less dmg per attack, quick basicattacking, their kiting decides how many basicattacks they can pull out), but some of them need item or two to have same damaging possibilities as anyone else, both via basic attacks and their abilities. I am not telling some of them might not need this to survive and be relevant, but in ideal world they should keep the identity through entire game.
I'd rather have them rework Critical Strike, too. Since ADCs should be about sustained damage, maybe decrease the stat and make it CS chance per attack. Every basic attack, they get X% CS chance for next attack stacking until reaching 100%, while the X% would be gathered via stat in items. Eventually, Critical Strikes should not deal 200% dmg. Maybe this was cool back when I didn't play, but more and more champs (not only ADCs) can reach quite huge amount of AD. Critical Strike on its own and champs who are supposed to be AD primary on their own are not problem, but it feels like after CS chance rework, they can more easily be combined into burst damage on champs that shouldn't have one.
I'd rather Critical Strikes to deal only small bonus damage not to be useless without finishing initial CS chance item, but instead Critical Strike basic attacks would trigger special Passives of items granting CS chance. For example Infinity Edge would increase the small bonus CS damage. So instead of dealing 20%AD bonus damage, Critical Strikes would deal 50%AD and that would be the only one for higher damage. Then Bloodthrister might heal for additional 10%-30% of the damage dealt on Critical Strikes. Phantom Dancer might grant 20-30 Movement Speed burst for 1-1.5 seconds for kiting on Critical Strikes. ETC.
And then to wrap Marksman class around Critical Strikes, allow them to proc Critical Strike guaranteedly on occasions or scale something with the chance -> for example, Caitlyn headshots proc CS Passives without the damage, it might have separate damage on its own. ETC ETC.
50000000000000008 votesI thought about giving crit chance special effect on each ADC, but I haven't considered applying the same to items. That could be interesting.
Ha1man5 votesCrit just adds too much damage in spikes due to multiplicative nature of auto-attack damage.
I'd rather they remove it from the game altogether but oh well, we know this is never going to happen.
50000000000000005 votesBut what if crit did more than just damage? Essence Reaver gives mana on crits. Ashe has more powerful slows on crits. What if crits did less damage (something between +20%-50% without IE), but also had other utility effects?
Tristana crit could explode (her passive on Explosive Shots), Vayne could apply two stracks of Silver Bolts, Kog'Maw can apply on hit effects twice on crits, etc. Some of these ideas are probably hard to balance, but the point is that crits should give other effects than just double damage.
Qukslice3 votesRemoving crit is basically removing the only thing that makes auto attacks special. It would make playing hyper carry, auto attack heavy adc's like Jinx and Vayne boring. I would also kill tryndamere and yasuo entirely.
Chizzah7 votesThat's cool but complicated. Why not just make crit chance = crit damage. Like 1% crit chance will add 1% extra damage. You can even half that if you want.
Now to get double damage you need to build 100% crit chance. Now all adc will be weak early but strong late.
Adjust item pricing to determine how long it takes to reach 80-100% crit chance.
Bootleg Gay41 votesYeah, I'm pretty sick of champs like Lucian and Graves who can just straight out unload all their damage in a short time when Marksman are supposed to invest in attack speed.
Vayne is a problem too; doesn't matter how "weak" she is, she will always have damage because of Silver Bolts, and I'd be fine with it if it came with a draw-back. The problem is, she is ranged, she has Tumble, she has Invisibility, and she has a way to stay safe through Condemn. Sure it's not perfect, but it makes it hard to get away from her or chase her down in the right circumstances. No reason for her to always be capable of dealing damage while also being safe.
My only other big issue is with Corki, in that he forces everyone on the enemy team to split their resistances more, and it makes him capable of buying anything he wants in order to get through those resistances. I get it in that he's supposed to be the "Magic Damage Marksman", but I think it's a bit over the top when you ensure the enemy support won't have an early game defense, and mid game becomes a struggle for the tanks.
CookyPrince4 votesI wonder what all these adcs have in common
Big Lincoln28 votesi feel like graves is a special exception in this since he's less of an ADC and more of a bursty bruiser.
that said, he's definitely unloading his combo TOO quick, on top of being obnoxiously tanky; he shouldn't have more resists than what tanks get. so assuming you don't rework the changes entirely he wouldn't work very well with standard adc builds.
Flitchee9 votesHe takes longer to reach the tanky point because of how they changed his dash. and his combo is only really fast if you are standing still for too long, or walk next to a wall, and as for him not working very well with adc builds, that's true, but his whole schtick is being in peoples faces and doing a lot of damage, and i'm not sure if you've ever seen a graves do well from behind, because if they get behind its very hard to do what you need to to win the game. do i think he could use some kind of change? maybe, but his damage is so high because his risk is also high, for him to actually do meaningful damage a few things need to happen first. Either someone needs to be near a wall, or he needs to be ahead enough that making people face tank all 4 bullets isnt a problem for him. If hes not ahead, him being melee range is a bad idea, but if hes not melee, all he has is his ult for damage. but again he gets that damage from the risk factor, and i mean sure his jungle is very safe, but his ganks arent great unless the player is in a really bad spot, or if he just outright does not respect the damage. so the way to beat him is a high pressure jungler that moves the map faster than he does. He also has his winrate nosedive late game because of how he works, he doesnt get tanky enough, and when he doesnt pick his spots carefully, he will just be a wasted death. There is not much that would come to mind other than tweaking his autos, but i don't know how you would do that, and i feel like his abilities are fine as they are, unless they make a change to q which i wouldnt mind that much, but i don't really know what they could do without destroying his identity. Also sorry for wall of text, i got carried away.
Need Gold 4 Tent17 votesHybrids have a weakness though, in the sense that they have no true pen items and they suffer more when lategame comes and tanks have ~200ish armor and MR. Compare that with a pure AD easily chewing through 487 armor (Malphite vs Jhin) because armor pen items are just that strong.
RavenMagus5 votesVayne's Silver Bolts is completely fine. It's the essence of what's being talked about here - inevitability for killing a target over time.
The problem is, Vayne doesn't even need Silver Bolts anymore. She 1-2 shots squishy champions with a Tumble crit now because it does insane amounts of damage with even just a couple items.
xCALYPTOx2 votesThe reason she has all of those things is because her auto attack range is balls and so many people have gap closers that out range her tumble. If she does not have any peel from her teammates it is still very easy to get to her, unless she completely backs off from the teamfight but then she won't be doing any damage.
hhaavviikk22 votesI don't understand how riot thinks there could exist ''early game'' ADC'S since adc's by design will always have a good late game
Chromatic Eagle9 votesDon't some adcs fall off mid game? Thought Ezreal did.
Jet Sett9 votesDepends on your definition of falling off. Vayne will start beating Lucian late game in 1v1 situations, but Lucian still wrecks your turrets and other objectives.
CookyPrince3 votesno she'll start beating him once she gets Stattik into Ie
Zepper1 votesIsn't Ezreal's power spike at once he gets Muramana and IBG?
Verdade2 votesEzreal has good early, excellent mid and pretty under-average late.
DeusVult3 votesin riots opinion falling off as an early game adc means that they stop winning 1v1 against non-early game adcs. They still beat everyone else unless they get caught out by an assassin.
Aptest9 votesI'll run with your idea for a while.
I do not think there is a problem with ADCs being stronger early game, or with SOME ADCs being capable of acting without team.
Honestly, I do feel that if all ADCs are made to be always team dependent, this puts an unfair strain on support players to always be there for the ADC. this locks alternative play styles for the support behind a "protect the ADC" requirement that no other team mate will willingly share. Some (not all) ADCs should be ok on their own and quite capable of defending and contesting objectives VS other classes. And have a sizeable downside that comes with that capability.
I think the core problem you percieve with ADCs is their late game damage, against squishy targets. ADCs need to have tons of damage to deal with tanks. Full tanks and almost tanks (BC / triforce into tank) have almost 6000 effective HP. When ADC can deal with them in 10 seconds, meaning is that it destroys a soft target in 3 seconds.
if we find a way to keep TTK VS tanks at 10 seconds while increasing TTK VS softs to 5 seconds this solves the "ADC bursting people" issue, and also gives an assassin more time to execute their routine. Overall if we make this change ADCs are less independent late game, and also they don't 2-shot people anymore.
How to do this change in damage output? the 1 offensive stat unique to ADCs - crit. changing crit to % max HP damage. That way, the crit portion of an ADC's damage is 1/2 against squishies, than it is against tanks.
A Doorknob8 votesADC are item based champs. Fix the items you fix the champions. Very few ADC need reworks. Some may need adjustments but not an entire rework. Items are what is causing the problems, not the champ themselves. Some ADC are actually good at 1 on 1 and do not require a team: Draven, Lucian, Vayne, Kalista are some while others like Tristana, Corki, Kog'maw, Twitch should not 1 on 1 and should team fight. It's up to you to learn these things. As well some ADC have stronger potential early game than others, this is true with all champs in the game whether your AP or AD or a tank: Lucian, Draven are strong early game. This is also part of what give them their uniqueness. This again is up to you to learn about.
Best princess EU20 voteswhen a class is reworked, their items are also reworked
if you rework their items, it's still an adc rework
A Doorknob5 votes[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QX31UOIf,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-11-12T13:34:31.027+0000)
when a class is reworked, their items are also reworked
if you rework their items, it's still an adc rework
What is considered an ADC item? IE? Yasuo and Master Yi can both utilise this item. Perhaps Black cleaver? Mf sure seems to love it. But wait isn't that considered bruiser item? I'm confused by your statement. Your just hopping on the hate train. Some ADC champs do need reworks hands down because balancing them is too difficult due to their kit. With this I point fingers at Kalista and Vayne. But most adc do not need a rework, just simple adjustments. By fixing items for instance: reduce the crit chance on items and reduce the armor pentration to 30% you've fix a whole whopping of problems.
Need Gold 4 Tent18 votesI think, the model for a healthy ADC is Ashe. Totally fucked when people manage to get to her, but with assistance from her team and partly her own kit, she can be kept safe to continue doing damage.
Not Cait popping 1k headshots from half a screen away on top of having safety nets and shit, or Miss "do everything myself" Vayne.
Battlecast Sona6 votesI honestly died a little inside when they gave Ashe her new crit mechanic because I was like "noooo, now they won't give this to everyone" because let's be real, Ashe's crit paradigm is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY healthier for the game than everyone else's.
Need Gold 4 Tent3 votesit is, because it's constant and not "lol 1% crit I win #outplayed" or "FUCK YOU RNG" when you don't get crits. TBH, they could actually do this, since crit is a % damage increase in a way if you see it mathematically.
Essentially, 100% crit chance is a 100% increase in damage. 10% crit chance is a 10% increase in damage, if you count it over 10 attacks. Instead of making it random, they could change it to a constant % damage increase instead, and perhaps nerf it a little bit to pay for the reliability.
Critmaster Garen10 votesWhat is considered an ADC item? IE? Yasuo and Master Yi can both utilise this item.
yasuo and yi are ad carries.
Verdade1 votesYou wish Every time they are viable they are building bruiser-ish builds
50000000000000004 votesIsn't that like saying Ezreal is not an ADC because he builds IBG?
Imperial Japan2 votesADC are item based champs. Fix the items you fix the champions. Very few ADC need reworks. Some may need adjustments but not an entire rework. Items are what is causing the problems, not the champ themselves. Some ADC are actually good at 1 on 1 and do not require a team: Draven, Lucian, Vayne, Kalista are some while others like Tristana, Corki, Kog'maw, Twitch should not 1 on 1 and should team fight. It's up to you to learn these things. As well some ADC have stronger potential early game than others, this is true with all champs in the game whether your AP or AD or a tank: Lucian, Draven are strong early game. This is also part of what give them their uniqueness. This again is up to you to learn about.
Love how people who don't complain and understand the game get downvoted
Lotus Irelia8 votesMaking BF Sword AD based on base AD might be a start.
15 flat + 25% base AD as bonus AD would go a long ways in making marksmen weaker early to mid game and more level dependant for their 1000K+ crits. Crit builds could really use some kind of bigger scaling factor with levels.
Perhaps making attack speed per level effect the base attack speed instead of being added on like items would be good as well but would have to be careful about doing something that.
HazyCloud75 votesUpvote this to the top. This crap is absolutely ridiculous. Vayne, Twitch, and Quinn are essentially now better assassins than any assassin in the game other than Rengar.
Marksmen are obnoxiously overpowered right now. Strong early, strong mid game, strong late game. Even champions like Jinx and Vayne who are suppose to "scale" become incredibly strong after 2 full items complete.
Lets remove the burst on adcs that are intended to be DPS monsters. Raise the price on zeal items, and get rid of phantom dancer.
Almighty5 votesRiot need to rebalance Vayne so she doesn't go God mode after 1 item. RIot also needs to remember that something called Kalista exists.
Almighty.
Ariel the Cruel5 votesF you Windows. I never told you to restart for the 3ed time this week! Time to re-wright this 2 hour post from scratch.
. . . Actually.... F it. Here's the TLDR.
Rather than just complaining about the ADC problem, why don't we dedicate a pyramid to discussion potential solutions?
Objectives:
Some proposals (these go together):
Remove Crit chance. Rather than having crit be an ADC thing and leaving it to the whims of RNGesus, I propose making it a burst focused effect with limited access conditions. It will double non-escalation AD. This will disincentivize ADC usage while still making it powerful and something that can be played around.
Add a new item stat: Escalation <#> Escalation Will increase AD by a small amount with every AA against champions, structures, and epic monsters for 5 seconds. Escalation will have a hard-cap of 20 stacks, and should break even with equivalent items at around 10 stacks.
Sweeping AD stat adjustments. Reduce ADC base AD and increase base AS. Increase base AD of other champions. This will mean that an ADC building raw AD will never out-scale their counterparts, but over the long haul will dwarf the AD of others.
Reduce ADC cross-pollination with defensive items. Drastically reduce ADC access to defensive options while still retaining access to absurd damage potential late game. (I'm not personally against ADC's having defensive options. Kit defenses, Item defenses, Support (kit and item) defenses, and Life steal when combined become a bit absurd though.
Examples of how this would look:
Passive damage amp removed. Q stacks to activate reduced to 4.
Ashe trades the bonus damage for the ability to stack escalation very quickly.
Headshot bonus damage is replaced with a Crit. Cait still has shit base AS. This reinforces the idea of Cait taking pot-shots for high damage, while playing safe. Consistent crits (passive+net+trap) with terrible AS makes her a good candidate for a non-escalation build.
No change. Draven is perfect just the way he is. ;p
Graves Raw AD (non-escalation) from items is increased by 50%
Graves Doesn't lend himself particularly well to DPS. This will let him use Raw AD effectively.
Passive builds 2 stacks of escalation as expected. AS unchanged. This will let him build up to the break point quickly, but ashe's Q should still let her max out well before him.
Passive will generate 2 stacks of of Escalation. This guy will probably build it. At least in low Elo.
Ult grants 1 escalation stack each time an enemy champion is damaged (not epic monsters). Her Base AD . . . Um . . . It really can't get much worse than it is now. (>_>)
Spear still applies crits.
Harrier proc scale up to 200% AD (based on level) but still does not crit.
Quinn's in a bit of an odd spot. Not quite sure how to handle her at this moment.
Q crits.
Bouncing blades deal damage based on AD when the AA was used.
Melee lunge skill crits.
Escalation stacks are applied on-AA, not on-hit. No ult abuse here. ;p
Base AD reduced. Homing Acid hunters Crit.
Urgod's thing is Acid hunters. I'm torn between making homing hunters grant escalation or crit. Since he tends to need defensive stats, I opted for crit.
Tumble Grants 1 stack of Escalation instead of bonus damage. During ult, tumble grants 2 escalation and each proc of silver bolts (3 stacks) grants 1 escalation - bonus AD removed. Stealth time reduced to 0.5 seconds.
4th AA still crits. Jhin does not gain escalation, instead he gains a static bonus AD equal to 3/6/9/12/15 stacks based on level.
Yasuo has a lot of problems. I'm too biased to address his crit fairly without screwing with the rest of his kit.
Tryn gains a Jhin style AA counter. Every 5th AA will Crit.
ITEMS:
Every 5th qualifying AA will grant an additional stack of escalation.
AD: 0, Escalation 4
30 AD, does not grant escalation.
Firecannon: your next energized AA gains bonus range and crits.
Lightning: You next AA deals damage to enemies near the target equal to your total AD.
Bolts deal damage equal to your current escalation bonus. Bolts do not build escalation.
Dealing more than 20% of a targets total health in less than three seconds or applying a crit causes them to bleed for 60% your total AD over 6 seconds.
AA's grant 0.5% max mana. Crits grant 5% max mana.
20 AD, Escalation 3.
Does not grant escalation.
20 AD, Escalation 3
Rotary Barrel
AD: 15, Escalation 1
A new intermediary for ADC items
"Finally, something that's not a sword!"
Mini-explosives
40 AD, Every 10th AA will crit.
Active: your Next AA will ignore armor and crit. (60 second cooldown)
(Think Crit-Hydra)
For concept comparison between items:
20 AD
-> 
40 AD
-> 
20 AD, Escalation 3
At 20 stacks, Dominik's would grant 80 AD for every AA. Mortal grants a static 40 that would effectively become 80 for 1 AA with a crit.
Please note: I'm not great with numbers (especially when windows nukes all my math). So think of them more as representative.
And yes. This is the short version of what I originally had.
Project omen4 votes
Chembaron Yamada4 votesI have to disagree when it comes to point 2. Quinn for example. Statement from riot about her rework: "No one counters a split-push as fast as Demacia's wings!" To be able to counter a split-push (often done by duelists), she has to be decent at dueling. She pays for it, since she is weaker in team fights compared to other marksmen.
TeCoolMage4 votesI disagree in that the rework should be mainly for ADCs, there needs to be a full game rework focusing on the ADC champions themselves, but the itemization of every other class.
The importance of an ADC is way too ingrained into the game, they control objectives, objectives control the game, so ADCs control the game.
There needs to be a rework that allows other champions to be fully gold dependent like ADCs, and ADCs to be level dependent (more slot efficient but gold inefficient items for assassins, mages and tanks), so bot lane can be more flexible. Supports need to outright be given gold and exp to compensate for having no farm, so that role can be more open too. Jungle with the new sustain's heading in the right direction and mid+top have always been open for pretty much every champion.
Itemization has to be changed to have more general-purpose tower and baron taking items, possibly with a new stat like "Demolition +4: Gain % AP damage towards towers equal to your Demolition every x seconds" or something like that. Some champions like Diana, Ziggs and Teemo get compensation though
TeemoXNidalee3 votesJust make autoattack items stronger on melee champions and weaker on ranged ones. It's super easy to fix, but the balance team is dumb
Chembaron Yamada6 votesSo you want marksmen items to be weaker if they are taken by marksmen. Sure. If we are at it, make tank items give less tankiness if your base tank stats (health, armor) are above a specific mark. And support items should just give half the heal/shield if you already have an own heal/shield in your champion kit.
That's not how this works, buddy....
TeemoXNidalee4 votesSo you want marksmen items to be weaker if they are taken by marksmen. Sure. If we are at it, make tank items give less tankiness if your base tank stats (health, armor) are above a specific mark. And support items should just give half the heal/shield if you already have an own heal/shield in your champion kit.
That's not how this works, buddy....
They're not marksmen items, they're adc items. But why would you pick a melee adc when you get no penalties for picking a ranged one?
Chembaron Yamada6 votesWhy should you pick a ranged adc (aka marksman) if you actually get punished for it? If you really want to do that, you have to create a complete new set of items for marksmen. Because after that change, there would be just 2 items left for them they get the complete benefit from: Ruunans and RFC.
It doesn't make sense to have a whole class, which is completely reliant on items and then doesn't even get the full benefit from them.
Ahristocats10 voteswhy do you pick a ranged adc aka marksman in dota2 if you get punished by getting turn rates?
sometimes you have to weaken something to balance it, just how sion has a shitty hp because of his W passive.
Chembaron Yamada3 votesTurn rates affect everyone. Sure, they hit ranged units more than melee, but still everyone is actually affected. And when it comes to game design, I prefer every champion gets weakness based on his kit (like having no escape, being kitable or stuff like that) rather than having the statement "All marksman benefit 25% less from gold".
Battlecast Sona6 votesbut do you not realize that ranged marksman have an innate advantage (being ranged) over melee ADs? Their damage will always be safer and more sustained than a melee carries'. So why SHOULDN'T a melee carry be rewarded? I'd rather it be done this way than with another Tryn or Yasuo to be completely honest, two champions that basically only function as melee carries due to a function of their kit that is stupid (Tryn can ult during CC... Yasuo is pretty hard to pin down one stupid mechanic, so let's just say "he has a lot of free safety built into his kit")
I won't say I think they should get reduced AD, but arguing that Marksman have no benefit over melee carries is asinine. They have one of the most OP advantages of all - about 600 additional range.
XeroKimo2 votesI agree with
Being weak early, tho it'll be subjective between adcs because some adcs will still be better than others in laning phase
Not bursting a target in 1 second late, unless that's what the adc's made for, and they have to sacrifice some dps for it, which is pretty much graves, old graves could burst someone with AA Q R, but then he doesn't have as much dps as others.
I don't really agree with
Being bad at 1 v 1, if the way you mean is that adcs should always lose 1 v 1s, then I find that stupid, you might as well make every class unable to 1 v 1 and have to rely on a teammate. ADCs should be able to 1 v 1 tanks, assuming they have the dps, the pen, and the life steal needed to survive a tank's extended battle, assassin and mages would be pure outplay in 1 v 1s.
There's also to consider some ADC's niches, vayne's been the 1 v 1 queen for a long time, tho I hate her burst, if they can tune that down without touching her 1 v 1 abilities, then that'd be great. If you think vayne's the tank melter, that niche is supposed to be koggles, and despite what everyone is saying, koggles isn't that weak, but he actually has a weak early
Sona x Rubick16 votesyou think that vayne is the only one that can 1v1?
HI, we have here a shit ton of self peel
and possibly: 
example of adc that can't 1v1 
, to unleash all their damage they need all their team.
Jhin's snare requieres him to attack with his terrible attack speed, and then his W has a delay, good luck 1v1ing a diver with this.
Jet Sett5 votesYou can set up a 1v1 with Jhin pretty well sometimes, but in general if you surprise him there's nothing he can do.
TyroneWatermelon2 votesHow about rework the autoattack system, and critically strikes