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Talon

DonutChan··3 votes·869 views

I've been biting my tongue on this for the longest time in the hopes that someone would make a thread where I could get some answers, but no one has at least not recently. I don't claim to be some kinda MLG diamond Talon main or something, but I have play quite a bit of Talon over the course of playing league. He is my favorite assassin in the game, he always has been. I used to love the idea of "Shutting up" spammy mages with his silence however brief it was. My question is this: Why does Talon have so many weaknesses and so few redeeming qualities over other assassin be they AD or AP.

My main gripe Mana gating. Talon's mana costs are set in such a way that HE HAS to get Flask because he'll simply OOM himself before being able to do much of anything especially in the early game. It's to the point where I don't even like to use Rake until it's rank 3 or higher because of it's cost and it's low damage at low ranks. He has nothing to help him sustain his mana, he can't build item 3070 because he has such long CDs on his skills and item 3508 just seems like a silly thing to build on him. What does Rake do better than Zed's Q to the point of it needing to be gating behind such a high cost? A slow?

Talon's lack of escapes make him an easy gank target for some junglers (I understand that Mid as a whole is a hot spot for ganks) but Talon's only escape is one of his better damage tools as well so you have to choose between damage or safety. I would suggest letting talon ward jump and/or blink to ally, it would help him a lot.

Cutthroat seems lackluster at best, it's like a cheap Shunpo now without any of the utility that comes with the skill. It's basically a "Demi-root" but it can't even interrupt a channel, I assumed it was a placeholder or something until riot could think of something else but nothing ever came. Why is it ok for people to just TP in my face bot and all I can do is paw at them? it also seems really easy to just fling/stun/charm/root me from them as soon as I use it on them. Looking at you Morgana Tristana Ahri Syndra

I'm not saying Talon is garbage or anything I just think he needs some tweaks, his damage is solid if a lil delayed.

TL:DR: Talon has mana problems, E sucks, he is also an easy camping target. Pls help.

Edit: I'd love to have some dialog with someone who knows Talon well, maybe I'm doing something wrong.

19 Comments

Dreadlocks3 votes

His ult is also on a really low cool down and gives him a shit ton of burst w.o needing a lot of items. Then late game when you have items you can pretty much 1 shot squishies with your Q given how well it scales with AD.

TL;DR his lane phase is rather weak comparably speaking, but his lvl 6 roams and late game burst is almost unmatched.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

His ult is also on a really low cool down and gives him a shit ton of burst w.o needing a lot of items. Then late game when you have items you can pretty much 1 shot squishies with your Q given how well it scales with AD.

TL;DR his lane phase is rather weak comparably speaking, but his lvl 6 roams and late game burst is almost unmatched.

All his CD's (especially his Ult and E) were actually increased this season, probably to compensate the itemisation changes.

Dreadlocks2 votes

No they haven't lol

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Odd, i just went in game and you are right. Must have been a PBE thing.

Dreadlocks1 votes

Maybe, I don't really know how strong he is now, i use to play him A LOT but now i dont really play mid so hes a thing of the past xD I'm sure he can still roam/snowball very well just like before.

Bedl44m1 votes

You have to realize that talons ult must be used as both damage and escape... At the same time. That's what makes him so skill dependent. If you find his ult cd is crippling then add cd reduction to your build. It is core to most Talon players

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Dude, I know.... -_- You can put your ding back in your pants, you aren't impressing anybody with your posturing. i was making an observation, not a complaint. Get over yourself.

Bedl44m1 votes

Damn fool chill! Obviously I had meant to reply to the creater of the thread and not you. iPhone op

CreationFlaw2 votes

He has... instantaneous burst... I love playing talon, but he's solid where he is.

kaffeknappens1 votes

I just think they should give him a way to get out after he goes in, like all the other assassins. He's a great roamer but in teamfights he's pretty meh.

Seenan2 votes

I do agree he needs tweaks, like that interrupt channel on E. Kass' 3 second silence got the treatment, why can't Talon? It also makes sense thematically...Why is it called Cutthroat if Kat keeps spinning her face off anyway? If you were attempting to spin around while you had a knife to your throat, you'd probably end yourself.

Concerning W..you shouldn't be using it unless you hit a CS along with harassing them or wave clearing fast. E should be used as an anti-initiator (or an assassination attempt), and unless you can ensure a kill, keep R available for escaping. Not many people until maybe >Gold (unless smurfs/tryhards) will carry a/many pinks just for your R.

He's the epitome of an all-in champion to the degree that he needs Flash to get out if he's not careful/aware of his actions and surroundings. And since he's usually a mid champ (he thrives best at mid), your team comp at lower elos probably won't pick around him, so you might end up with an all-AD team which is reaally easy to itemize against with how strong armor+hp items are...As a side-note, if there's roughly 2-3 tanks on the enemy team, you won't do as great unless you can ensure kills on the squishies and snowball hard.

EDIT: I do remember a post a while back that suggested swapping his passive our for Ashe's old passive (focus). I really liked that idea, tbh. Adds to his burst/assassination potential so he doesn't become extra useless if he can't snowball...Compared to a skill more suited for cc-fighters. And yes, he does become pretty useless without snowballing/kills.

CasterGilgamesh2 votes

he could use some small tweaks but overall is in a decent spot.

Aegeon1 votes

"Q" also needs to get buffed: BONUS PHYSICAL DAMAGE: 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+ 30% bonus AD) 「 CHAMPION DAMAGE PER SECOND: 1.7 / 3.3 / 5 / 6.7 / 8.3 (+ 16.7% bonus AD) 」

Look how weak that is compared to other assassins like Rengar, Khazix, etc, .... ? I guess no one notice this?

we all talk about Rake "W" being weak and not being able to kill the 3 back ranged minions (its funny, bcuz he is an assassin, that should be at least an option, dont you think? but no ---- his W is not strong enough to kill the 3 back ranged minions, UNLESS u get 2-3 kills early b4 lvl 9... )

His "E" .... oh boy... its a 18 seconds CD at lvl 1. Wait, did you read that clearly? read it again ----- 18 seconds CD. look at Jax "Q" --- 10 seconds CD at lvl 1, and also can jump wards. Katarina's "E" is 12 seconds CD at lvl 1, can also jump wards. wait, its not over yet, Wukong's "E" is 8 seconds CD at lvl 1. And there is more, but you get the point. His "E" is just garbage really, oh and did i forgot to mention all of the examples above gives damage to the jump/dash? well guess what, Talon's "E" does NO DAMAGE, it only does a 0.25 seconds slow (which is nothing) and a lil buff to his passive (which is nothing too if you think about it). It would of been better if his "E" actually do damage, who cares about the slow really.

I main talon and have to say i gave up on him.. there are other assassins out there that are just better in general. Talon's mana cost is also very high which forces him to get blue or flask or a bunch of mana pots. You dont see this problem on Zed, Katarina, and not even khazix/wukong (yes, sad but true, even they dont need flask... but talon does).

Bedl44m1 votes

With only a Tiamat you can clear the entire minion wave with a rake and the Tiamat active, giving him one of the best wave clears I have seen. And Tiamat is a very common core item for Talon players

Karmic Fallout1 votes

Alright, I am not a pro by any means. I think I am only silver. My threes team is gold. But all that crap aside: I am no significant voice to any degree. I can, however, be honest.

I have been playing LoL for many a year now. I liked Talon from the get go. Just my style of champ. Hell, I used to use him bot when he came out.

I largely agree with the sentiment that Talon feels weaker than the other assassins. There are just so many more team comps they can fit into. Talon is just... Talon.

To my point of posting here. If Talon has weak spots I would like to try to find them and reveal them for discussion. With that said, I think some of what has been discussed here is not entirely on the mark.

Lets start with Talon's Passive. It is great. Less so when you consider that it is for auto attacks. The more auto attacks you can fit in, while there is a disable of some sort going on, the better. The problem here is, auto attacking multiple times is in stark contrast with the kind of champion he is. The more time dedicated to auto-attacks the greater the chance of getting CC'ed and murdered yourself. In this light, I do not feel that his passive actually fits with his design over all. At least not in its current form.

His Q: I agree that it seems weak. Most of the damage of the ability is in its bleed effect. While the bleed is excellent thematically speaking, it has too little of an impact with his kit over all. It is more of a flavour thing. However, the ability is not actually weak. We need to keep in mind that initial damage of the ability actually has an additional 1.0 total attack damage ratio that is not apparent. This is because the damage from the ability is on top of Talon's auto attack damage. In the end, I do not feel that this ability is all that awful. I would like to see the bleed make more of an impact, like mitigating heath regen entirely for its duration. Also, the fact that stealthed characters' blood trail is also stealthed for the duration of their respective stealths is silly.

The W: I like this ability. The slow is good offensively and defensively. Yes the mana cost is high, but it is quite the aoe damage ability. And it double procs Black Cleaver. It has one major stipulation that is ridiculous. If Talon dies, the blades no longer do damage if their are in mid animation. This needs to be fixed. Many other abilities continue out their damage arcs once they have been cast. What I would like to see is, if Talon dies while the blades are on their outward path, then yes, they should 'disjoint' and stop doing damage but also stop animating. If the blades have already reached their max range and are subsequently on their way back, if Talon were to die here, it only makes sense that they should keep doing damage. An assassin's final trick.

His E: I agree that he needs to be able to ward jump or something. The fact that almost every other jump ability works that way makes it feel like an arbitrary limitation. It makes Talon's play style rather linear. Or at least, more so than that of other champions with like abilities. But, we have to acknowledge its strengths; it does has that - let me tell you. The ability's range is fantastic. This mixed with the range of Talon's W and R make his insta jib potent. It is great for dodging abilities like line damage and CC. So satisfying to E past a Yasuo's tornado charged Q - turning a possible ult into an insta jib. Very fun. The damage buff of the ability is just their to make the ability DO something besides move you. The problem is, the damage buff again is only really for auto attacks; like Talon's passive. Moreover, Riot has been trying to get rid of invisible damage/power. They have been removing it from every champion, yet, Talon remains with it times 2! This feels weird.

His Ult is honestly awesome. Low cool down. High base damage; the spike at level 6 is huge. It suffers from the same thing as his W in that it can become similarly 'disjointed' on death. My proposed change for that ability I think should be applied here too.

I will come back later to engage in more discussion.

Bedl44m1 votes

I agree with you on the fixes for his w and ult. and I would love to see stealthed enemies showing the blood trail. But I actually hope they don't remove his "hidden damage" it's what makes playing Talon so fun, to give the enemy hope that they will survive after a flash only to hear that they died 3 seconds later from your bleed gives me an adrenaline rush like no other. And yes the passive is odd and doesn't quite fit him, but we can agree he doesn't need a buff per se.

Fowus1 votes

I don't have any mana issues with him but yeah I feel like he does need some tweaks here and there

Bedl44m1 votes

Post 6 you need to be prepared to use Talon ult as both damage and escape at the same time. Mana problems are fixed mostly by corrupting potion atm, but i typically hold onto my early Ws unless I can farm a minion or two while simultaneously harassing my opponent. The reason for this is because they will typically harass you as you try to cs. This way you equalize the trade and don't miss the creep. Post 6 his mana problems are non-existent. As far as dealing with morg snares and such, dodge them like a god, build qss every game, wait for a cc to be blown before engaging, and be very selective on when you should engage or not. Talon will get you camped hard. I deal with it every game, but practicing with him will enable to you also outplay the ganks for some easy kills.

DonutChan1 votes

So now that Zed got a sweet all around buff, can Talon get some of that too please? Rito.

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