Can we please give Koggy a new Innate?

Rebonack··2 votes·587 views

As usual, ADC Kog's win rate is pretty healthy, but in terms of picks he ranks just above Quinn and Urgot. Vayne does the Tank-Buster thing (significantly) better. Even with Koggy's resist shred, silver bolts still deals more damage than BAB against targets with about 130 or more resistance. Over in poke land, Ez and Jinx both hit a hell of a lot harder when it comes to prodding and finishing off fleeing foes. Jinx just crushes Kog in the long-range auto-attack department in terms of consistency AND damage if she's hitting at least two people with her splash. And that's in addition to boasting a much stronger early game.

Koggy's issue is, and has been for some time now, that he's not really the best at any of his niches anymore in addition to being extraordinarily vulnerable.

I think Koggy's Innate should be cut out of his kit and some other part of his kit moved to his Innate, then other buffs and functionality added accordingly to give him a unique niche that he excels well beyond his peers. I can see four routes that could be taken here.

  1. Attack Speed. The attack speed passive would be removed from Koggy's Q and added to his Innate in some sort of buffed form. I'm not sure how you would do this without overlap with Jax, Ez, or Varus. I suppose we could go with how it worked back in early Season 1. Koggy's Q used to multiply his TOTAL attack speed rather than just adding on his base. That would give him a true balls-to-the-walls hypercarry curve again.

  2. Resist shred. Auto attacks shred MR, spells shred Armor. Pretty simple, right? Eating flat resist would allow him to duel other soft targets better while %shred would give him better tank-melting capabilities.

  3. Attack range. Lots of ways to do this. Skills mark foes and allow Koggy to take a super long range pot-shot at them. Each consecutive attack against the same target increases his attack range (resets if he switches targets). After using a skill, the next auto attack gains a decent bit of bonus range. Whatever works.

  4. HP shred. Again, a couple ways to do this. A three and proc %missing HP effect could be workable. There aren't any champions with one of those yet. Something as simple as making Koggy deal %HP damage on autos and skills could work, but that would probably require spicing up his W a bit. It isn't very interesting without the %HP shred.

I really don't care which route is taken. I'm pretty sure Riot could come up with something cool. Because while it IS certainly amusing, Koggy's Innate really doesn't fit him. He's a champion that would really benefit from an Innate that ties his kit together.

13 Comments

ZephyrDrake2 votes

his passive is there because it's power he doesn't need. If he gets an actual passive that means the rest of his kit is going to get nerfed you really want that to happen?

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

his passive is there because it's power he doesn't need. If he gets an actual passive that means the rest of his kit is going to get nerfed you really want that to happen?

You're right.

He doesn't need an AoE Ignite worth of true damage every time he dies.

It's power he doesn't need that's watering down his kit and pulling him in directions he doesn't need to go. It's helping to contribute to his lack of niche when compared with other ADCs.

The problem is that your thinking is stuck down in the lowest rung of champion design, numerical balance. This topic is talking about kit design, cohesiveness, and champion identity. We're not even discussing the same subject here.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

You're right.

He doesn't need an AoE Ignite worth of true damage every time he dies.

It's power he doesn't need that's watering down his kit and pulling him in directions he doesn't need to go. It's helping to contribute to his lack of niche when compared with other ADCs.

The problem is that your thinking is stuck down in the lowest rung of champion design, numerical balance. This topic is talking about kit design, cohesiveness, and champion identity. We're not even discussing the same subject here.

he does not need a new passive, simple as that. He is a late game hypercarry and when he reaches late game he is one of the strongest ADCs out there. He will melt tanks and he will deal a lot of damage that is mixed so it's harder to itemize against. The problem here is that you think he has no niche, which is wrong. Kog will poke you down a lot easier than a Jinx will and Jinx's rocket comes at the cost of having low AS unlike Kog that he still has high AS so in a battle of range Jinx will lose to a Kog. Vayne is Vayne and you shouldn't ever try to fight her alone but in teamfights Vayne put herself in a more dangerous position than Kog who can keep his distance and still do a lot of damage.

Riot is not going to give him buffs just because they move some other part of his kit to his passive, since HE IS ALREADY STRONG ENOUGH. The entire point of his passive is once again, power he doesn't need since his kit is already strong enough on it's own. If you can't see that then it's your problem

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

he does not need a new passive, simple as that. He is a late game hypercarry and when he reaches late game he is one of the strongest ADCs out there.

Not to sound like a jerk here, but can you provide any actual evidence of Koggy being a late game hyper-carry?

Can you show me his win rate curve rising dramatically with the length of the game?

Because that's what Vayne's looks like. Koggy's curve spikes mid/late and then drops. This hyper-carry thing gets thrown around a lot, but that simply isn't how things actually play out. I know that's what Koggy was designed to do, but in practice it doesn't actually happen.

The entire point of his passive is once again, power he doesn't need since his kit is already strong enough on it's own. If you can't see that then >it's your problem

Not really?

He has that Innate because of his original design. He used to have a targeted Q that gave him 50% armor penetration, but it was medium ranged. The idea was that his Q and Innate were his fall-back play pattern in case someone got up in his face. Poke from long range, but with a nasty bite up close. Riot remade his Q and so that doesn't really apply anymore.

I honestly think you're drastically underestimating just how powerful Koggy's current Innate is. As said before, an AoE Ignite worth of damage is no joke.

Lugg1 votes

Kog is pretty OP regardless of how much he is played. Once he hits level 11, no matter how bad his early game was, he starts to carry.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Kog is pretty OP regardless of how much he is played. Once he hits level 11, no matter how bad his early game was, he starts to carry.

Pretty OP compared to who?

Lugg1 votes

Anyone not named Vayne or Jinx.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

Well those are the only other two adc's in the game amirite? XD

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

Anyone not named Vayne or Jinx.

Or Ashe or Sivir or Cait or Corki or Kalista or Ez or Draven or Graves.

The rest of those are immaterial, though.

Vayne does the Tankbuster/hypercarry thing better than Kog. Jinx does the long range auto-attacker/poke/cleanup thing better than Kog. His niche is eclipsed. He needs a thing to make him stand out from the other Rangers if there's to be a reason to pick him, because his vulnerability is a pretty huge deal.

The Innate is the easiest thing to focus on, because it adds quite a bit of power to Kog's kit (seriously), but in a fashion that doesn't emphasize what Koggy is good at. It's design space that could be used to give Kog that unique identity that sets him apart.

Lugg1 votes

Kog is so strong that there is actually a Protect the Kog team build. No other ADC has that as far as I have seen.

Yosuke Apperu1 votes

I wouldn't give him a passive directly correlating to his damage. But I am not really a big fan of passives that don't work till you die. Examples : KogMaw Zyra Sion . Sion's is iffy. It's kind of okay but everyone has cc etc.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't give him a passive directly correlating to his damage. But I am not really a big fan of passives that don't work till you die. Examples : KogMaw Zyra Sion . Sion's is iffy. It's kind of okay but everyone has cc etc.

If his Innate were increasing his damage, it would ostensibly be at the expense of the damage somewhere else in his kit.

If he got more attack speed he would lose the passive on Q. If he got more %HP shred he would lose the effect on his W. If he got more resist shred he would lose the effect on his Q, ect.

Koggy already has lots of stuff in his kit. Ult poke that reveals the target, an IAS passive, a range/onhit buff, resist shred, and of course his self-destruct. The idea here is to remove the self-destruct and slot one of the other (now buffed) effects into that place.

Hasztalan21 votes

Problem is nobody has that much dmg in his kit combined with so HUGE range from the adcs .

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