Who Thought the Vayne Buffs Were a Good Idea?

Limrick·Oct 11, 2016·13 votes·1,226 views

You gave a champion with the single best DPS in the entire game, which was balanced around taking time to do the massive damage, insane burst. Having a Vayne with just a Shiv do 800-900 damage in a single auto attack just makes me want to puke. A champion with such powerful tools in a low cooldown dash, stealth, true damage, and a knockback that can stun if done well does not need insane burst on top of that. To be completely honest, she shouldn't even be allowed to crit at all. It ruins the entire point of her Silver Bolts being balanced around taking a lot of shots. Now that her Q damage can crit as well as her auto AND Shiv sometimes, one auto can destroy the enemy ADC with zero effort on Vayne's part.

Please revert that change, Vayne was perfectly fine before.

38 Comments

Sightless66Oct 11, 20163 votes

Now that her Q damage can crit

Her Q could always crit. The bugfix was to make the Q bonus damage and the standard autoattack damage crit together or not crit at all, instead of each rolling separately to see whether or not they crit (funnily enough, this actually nerfed Vayne's average dps at any crit value below about 60%, because she also had a bug that made it so that rolling a crit on only one of the components made the full ability crit, but rolling a crit on both components caused only one of the components to crit. This is why her winrate actually significantly decreased when that patch released, despite no increase in her playrate.) Her Q damage was slightly increased later, but that's it.

The only positive change she had to the Q's damage was the 13.3% increase to its damage. Makes the crit build a bit better, but not by that much. The main thing it did was get people to stop building BotRK and start using the build they should have picked up months ago.

She was a terrible champion, and got some much needed buffs. Now she's average. Nothing special here.

Nar7iaOct 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Her Q could always crit. The bugfix was to make the Q bonus damage and the standard autoattack damage crit together or not crit at all, instead of each rolling separately to see whether or not they crit (funnily enough, this actually nerfed Vayne's average dps at any crit value below about 60%, because she also had a bug that made it so that rolling a crit on only one of the components made the full ability crit, but rolling a crit on both components caused only one of the components to crit. This is why her winrate actually significantly decreased when that patch released, despite no increase in her playrate.) Her Q damage was slightly increased, but that's it.

The only positive change she had to the Q's damage was the 13.3% increase to its damage. Makes the crit build a bit better, but not by that much. The main thing it did was get people to stop building BotRK and start using the build they should have picked up months ago.

She was a terrible champion, and got some much needed buffs. Now she's average. Nothing special here.

Spot on. Feels good to finally see someone who knows what they are talking about and not blatantly hate vayne :D

D357R0Y3ROct 11, 20161 votes

what happens if she has more than 60%?

Sightless66Oct 11, 20162 votes

If you get more than 60% crit, her average dps will be increased relative to what it was before the bugfix, but by a smaller percentage than the damage was decreased by for being under 60%.

EmojayOct 11, 20162 votes

I thought they were a good idea...

LimrickOct 11, 20162 votes

Maybe the Tumble bonus to towers was fine, but that was all she needed, but Riot KEPT BUFFING HER FOR NO REASON.

EmojayOct 11, 20161 votes

Personally, I think it's just for lcs reasons...

ChalizardOct 11, 20161 votes

So You were wrong, she was strong even before them.

Nar7iaOct 11, 20161 votes

Lmfao I bet you are salty because you got owned by a good vayne :D

LimrickOct 11, 20163 votes

So skillful to click on me twice and I die.

Nar7iaOct 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

So skillful to click on me twice and I die.

Don't feed her 20+ kills then and maybe you won't die when she clicks twice on you :)

Oh and btw if Vayne is SO OP as you are saying then why is she not picked in worlds yet even once?

LimrickOct 12, 20162 votes

It was a jungle Vayne that got stomped completely. Once she had IE, she one-shot me, then mopped up my team.

LimrickOct 11, 20162 votes

I'm cool with losing to a good Vayne, but getting instakilled by what's supposed to be a DPS champ is pretty ridiculous.

Nar7iaOct 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I'm cool with losing to a good Vayne, but getting instakilled by what's supposed to be a DPS champ is pretty ridiculous.

Show me a proof of vayne 'instakilling' someone then talk BS. I haven't 'instakilled' anyone on vayne yet unless I was 15/0 by 20 mins.

Sure she can 2-3 shot squishies when her Q crits but then I can do (and have done) the same as cait when my headshot crits.

ApolloclipticOct 11, 20163 votes

Not to side either way, but factually speaking, a late game Vayne (not fed or ahead, but if they stall game long enough for her to farm and catch up so she has core items) can pretty much insta-kill squishies, and since she shreds tanks, it becomes a nightmare.

A Vayne that was behind was able to score 5 kills since she cleaned up two by arriving at a teamfight late, then without ulti (but after already taking out the main cc champs) she got 3 more at base and won game, with pretty much two or three hits each.

The main reason Vayne is not picked up, is because she is a late game champ, in worlds, games end fairly quick, and the early game Vayne tends to be subpar, but late game she is, in fact, a strong champ. This isn't salt or being bad, this is the nature of her design (weak early strong late) which has no place in the fast pace games of worlds.

In most elos below Diamond, games tend to drag out, In gold and lower, players struggle to finish with early leads, and even in plat, there are those who are good at stalling and objective control, forcing a late game. While getting better to stop the late game hyper-carries is the best option, doesn't change that Vayne is very strong, she is just bad at "attaining" that strength, two separate issues that require different approaches to solve.

Regarding nerf? Personally I don't think Adc's in general should burst, just my opinion on the game as a whole, and many have argued that the reason the games balance never settles, is because ADC's are meant to take objectives and deal with tanks. So when they can burst as well, other champs need buffs to compensate, if the assassins get too strong, tanks get buffed, if tanks get too strong, adc's get buffed, and it goes around and around. It's an old league debate to which if adcs identity as sustainable damage was focused on, and they lost the burst it would solve, but simultaneously upset a large playerbase that main adc or like the current system (removing crits and adc burst items has been tested on champs like Ashe, but removing it completely is not something riot is planning to do as far as we can tell).

Vayne on her own doesn't need nerfing compared to other adc's, but as long as adc's can burst, sustain (and some CC and mobility too) then it will always feel unhealthy for some, outside of the "don't let them get fed" but late game where everyone has full build, these champs become insane, even against other late game champs.

Nar7iaOct 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Not to side either way, but factually speaking, a late game Vayne (not fed or ahead, but if they stall game long enough for her to farm and catch up so she has core items) can pretty much insta-kill squishies, and since she shreds tanks, it becomes a nightmare.

First of all its good to reply such as yours because you are genuinely trying to discuss and argue here instead of blatantly whining 'OMFG VAYNE OP PLZ NURF' or saying 'you are vayne main so your opinion is worth horse s***' like so many other ppl here have been doing. So you get my upvote for it.

Yes you are right that vayne can burst squishies late game but then again a cait can do the same thing with her headshot crits. (I legit 2 shotted a lb once and everybody went 'LOL' :D). Jinx/draven/twitch/graves/quinn they all can do the same thing. I got 3 shotted by a jinx during mid game while I was playing fiora and I actually had some armor at that point so I was not even squishy. Heck , I was playing graves adc into vayne some days ago and all I did was walk upto vayne , use Q - AA twice in her face then use ult and BOOM! she was dead. People here are acting as if vayne is the ONLY adc that can burst squishies which is simply not true and that is my point.

In most elos below Diamond, games tend to drag out, In gold and lower, players struggle to finish with early leads, and even in plat, there are those who are good at stalling and objective control, forcing a late game. While getting better to stop the late game hyper-carries is the best option, doesn't change that Vayne is very strong, she is just bad at "attaining" that strength, two separate issues that require different approaches to solve.

I guess it can go both ways. I see plenty of games in gold which are just 20-30 min stompfest and losing team seldom has chance to make a comeback.

ApolloclipticOct 11, 20161 votes

Thanks, I like having decent discussions with people, it's fun and you often learn something from it.

Cait late game is definitely an underrated monster, I forget how strong she can be in the right hands and with the right build. Most Cait players hang back and just poke, but some play basically like Vayne, going right in your face but still dodging skill shots and dealing massive damage in single shots.

I don't think Cait is OP, and in fact, I think playing her well is even harder than Vayne, as it's kind of like exploiting her mechanics in ways she wasn't designed for, but just happen to still work, the main difference being longer cooldowns, so she won't often 1v5.

As far as the game is concerned, there are champs worse than Vayne, much worse, who snowball or hyper carry on much less amounts of Gold (cough cough Akali), but I understand why people dislike Vayne, especially in a season or Elo that is bad at closing games early.

Even if Vayne is equal to other Adc's late game, one difference is most of the adc's are doing well and continue to do so when they get that strong, Vayne can do so poorly early and mid, have 1 kill ad 8 deaths, and around minute 35 start going 1v5 all of a sudden. It's just frustrating to lose to someone who you're better than, due to the nature of their powerspikes and kits.

Currently i feel the same about Yasuo and Akali, as champs that can fail miserably, but powerspike suddenly

Akali level 6 no items and half farm can suddenly 2 shot most mid laners, and tower dive if she earns 3 kills
Yasuo can lose his lane quite badly, but powerspike around minute 25 without any significant amount of gold and become a massive impact in fights and eventually hyper carry. Plus he actually has a strong early unlike Vayne.

I think the only other reason to have a legitimate reason to dislike vayne, is she hasn't got much in terms of identifiable weaknesses. She has playstyle weaknesses, like pressure her early or force team fights so she can't split/farm to catch up. But if you catch her out, you're ahead in kills and farm, you land your full combo, she survives with 100 hp, then proceeds to beat you with life vamp, cc, hyper mobility, infinite chase, burst damage and dps.

again, higher elo will know that, despite her being behind, it's best to force teamfights then split and chase a Vayne solo, or even duo, but lower elo get cocky and overestimate their leads.

It doesn't make them bad scrubs or worthless, but most people have to experience this before they learn to play against it, because on paper it just doesn't seem right, then someone else on their team makes the same mistake and it's frustrating. The only unhealthy aspect about Vayne is that, just like Teemo, she just frustrates people, she herself, is not THAT OP.

Edit: I think their should be a rule against Vayne like the no chase rule against Singed, to stop people falling into Noob traps

LimrickOct 12, 20161 votes

A 4/5 jungle Vayne hit me with 2 autos and I died instantly. The first was a Tumble crit. Did 800 damage. The second proc'd Shiv, it did 600 damage. And I had a Chain Vest.

ChalizardOct 11, 20161 votes

"good vayne" xd I Wonder how bad vayne looks like? She uses only AA? Oh wait, That's what good vayne Player is doing.

Nar7iaOct 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

"good vayne" xd I Wonder how bad vayne looks like? She uses only AA? Oh wait, That's what good vayne Player is doing.

Dude I can't even take your comment seriously , its just stupidly hilarious. Saying what vayne does other than using AA is like saying what else syndra does other than pressing R.

ChalizardOct 11, 20161 votes

So it's well known truth, right? Im glad you see that.

Nar7iaOct 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So it's well known truth, right? Im glad you see that.

I could explain you what difference is there between a good and bad vayne (and trust me its day and night difference) but you are just biased in your opinion towards vayne like OP so there is no point in talking with people you.

But please tell me why is vayne not picked in worlds even for once if she is SO OP as you guys are making her out to be?

ChalizardOct 11, 20161 votes

First of all, it is not opinion that she is op it is fact.

You are Not lcs Player, You are in low Gold and talking about lcs players who have completly different play style than average players. They are like 0,0001% of all players so adjusting champions only to their fast style in which vayne is not as effective would be huge mistake, don't you think so?

Please explain me why she has 20% pick rate in meta that she is supposed to be weak in? If her skill cap is as high as you are trying to convince me it is, then why her win rate in bronze and Diamond is simillar and the difference between Player with few games compering to her main is almost the same as for another champions, which skillcap is considered average?

She is strong as fuck, she is not hard at all, maybe for players under plat but I have seen there ppl having hard time playing malphite so I guess it is not a big surprise.

Nar7iaOct 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

First of all, it is not opinion that she is op it is fact.

Just because you say something it doesn't become a fact.

You are Not lcs Player, You are in low Gold and talking about lcs players who have completly different play style than average players. They are like 0,0001% of all players so adjusting champions only to their **fast style **in which vayne is not as effective would be huge mistake, don't you think so?

Ok I am not a pro scene or e-sports fan at all but fast style? lmao. Most games in worlds atm are just farm fest where everyone gets 250-350 cs by 30 min .. thats definitely not a 'fast style' compared to 15-20 min stomps that happen in soloQ. Vayne is a hypercarry who scales better as the game goes on and most worlds game last 35+ min. So logically speaking vayne SHOULD be a better pick in worlds than she is in soloQ because in soloQ she might never see that lategame but in worlds she is definitely going to get to 30-35 min mark at the very least.

Please explain me why she has 20% pick rate in meta that she is supposed to be weak in?

Jinx has 23% pick rate , cait has 24% pick rate , lucian has 26% pick rate , ezreal has 32% pick rate , tell me why these champions are picked more than vayne IF vayne is so OP as you deem her? Also what kind of meta are you even talking about? I personally feel game is pretty balanced right now in that no single class is dominating games (mages are a bit strong but not too tad op).

If her skill cap is as high as you are trying to convince me it is, then **why her win rate in bronze and Diamond is simillar **

Because bronze vaynes play against bronze players and diamond vaynes play against diamond players? Not too hard to figure out is it?

the difference between Player with few games compering to her main is almost the same as for another champions, which skillcap is considered average?

http://champion.gg/champion/Vayne Vayne players with 5-15 games played have 49% win rate while those with 50-125 have 53% win rate , that difference is not almost same. Its difference of losing LP against climbing.

She is strong as fuck, she is not hard at all, maybe for players under plat but I have seen there ppl having hard time playing malphite so I guess it is not a big surprise.

She has 50.7% win rate overall , thats a pretty healthy win rate. IF she was really as OP as you people are making her out to be then please explain me why she does not have something like 55%+ win rate? Again she is not even picked in worlds for a single time despite being 'so op' as you guys are saying. Also , 90% of playerbase IS BELOW plat. There you go I just proved your every point false but please keep whining about how op vayne is. Btw I was told on multiple occassions that vayne is useless and I should not to pick her and instead play some other adc by my teammates and I was even flamed/trolled by some supports/teammates for picking vayne in soloQ.

ChalizardOct 11, 20161 votes

Because she is out of meta, Lot of cc and strong mages capable to burst adc, all adcs you mentioned are strong early, that's why vayne is not as effective as she could be now, this game is not only about lcs players so Idk why do you keep telling about them. Even though their matches last quite long they pick champions like jayce which are strong in early/mid game. They also don't pick malphite so that makes him weak, right?

55%+ win rate is not op, it's sick and she has healthy win rate in meta that she is weak in so I guess that might be hard to explain in a different way than she is super powerful.

You are telling about lcs but then you said 90% players are below plat and think you've proved something, well you've proved, that's right, you have proved that you are wrong and your argument was pointless.

You have been flamed because most of vaynes think that they picked noobish champ and can go in solo vs 3.

49%-53% is average for most champions considered and playing against somebody on your level is not making your champ any easier or harder.

Just because you are talking a lot and you main her doesn't mean she is weak or requires more skill than other adcs.

Im talking about meta with lot of tanks, cc, strong early champions and lack of assassins. Current meta if you would like to know.

If you only played less noobish champs than your mains then you would see that other champions are Not that easy to play with and are less op.

First achive at least plat then talk to me.

Nar7iaOct 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Because she is out of meta, Lot of cc and strong mages capable to burst adc

Mages have always been able to burst adc and vayne is actually better pick against mages than cait/jinx/mf/jhin because of invisibility and tumble which gives her good mobility and juking potential. She also has a conditional stun which further helps her. She is not out of meta and yet I see jinx/cait/mf/jhin played way more than vayne.

all adcs you mentioned are strong early, that's why vayne is not as effective as she could be now, this game is not only about lcs players so Idk why do you keep telling about them. Even though their matches last quite long they pick champions like jayce which are strong in early/mid game. They also don't pick malphite so that makes him weak, right?

Means absolute BS in soloQ. Bot lane is soloQ comes down to who has the better support/jungler. Support players decide who wins bot lane 80% of the time , they are the real playmakers not adcs. I have picked vayne into cait/luc/ez and won my lane while I have also picked cait/ez/mf against vayne and lost my lane. Tell me more how she is 'out of meta'. I never said this game is about lcs players , hell I am one of those players who absolutely doesnt give a f*** about lcs players but you again failed to prove your point. You are saying vayne is op but you fail to explain why she isn't picked in the highest tier of play where players would go to any length to win game. These games go on for a long time as well and vayne is supposed to thrive in long games. Despite all this , she has yet to see some daylight on summoners rift in worlds.

55%+ win rate is not op, it's sick and she has healthy win rate in meta that she is weak in so I guess that might be hard to explain in a different way than she is super powerful.

Again she is not really out of meta so your entire argument is pointless.

You are telling about lcs but then you said 90% players are below plat and think you've proved something, well you've proved, that's right, you have proved that you are wrong and your argument was pointless.

Lol I will just assume you dont read now. I gave example of lcs so as to prove my point that she is not op while I gave example of 90% playerbase being below plat to prove you wrong on your point 'she is not hard to play at all'. Do you even read?

49%-53% is average for most champions considered and** playing against somebody on your level is not making your champ any easier or harder.**

Maybe thats why she has similar win rate across all leagues? You just keep contradicting yourself.

Just because you are talking a lot and you main her doesn't mean she is weak or requires more skill than other adcs.

I never said she is weak , all I am saying is that she is not OMFG SO OP as you guys are making her out to be. As someone who has played a lot of adc and played various adc champs , I can tell you yes she requires more skill than other adc's. Only other adc that requires more or equal skill as her I would say is Draven .

Im talking about meta with lot of tanks, cc, strong early champions and lack of assassins. Current meta if you would like to know.

Vayne is a hypercarry and tankbuster with her % hp true dmg , if there are more tanks around then thats actually a good reason to pick her. What cc has to anything with vayne? CC is equally screws up any other adc as hard as it does vayne and vayne actually has more means to avoid being cc'ed than mf/jhin/jinx. Strong early champions - read above. Btw I just won lane against lucian as vayne. Pretty sure lucian is strong early :) She is not weak in this meta.

If you only played less noobish champs than your mains then you would see that other champions are Not that easy to play with and are less op. First achive at least plat then talk to me.

HAHAHA someone is salty :DD Btw you are d4 but you talk EXACTLY like a bronze player. You start to flame and bring in ranks in this discussion as soon as I show you how false you are. So hypocritical dude.

ChalizardOct 11, 20161 votes

To be honest I haven't read that, it's like explaining that earth is not flat, I can try but you won't listen to me anyway, we will see who will get higher I with my "bronze" attitude or you with your "challenger" one. I guess it is pointless to argue with somebody who cryies about his main champion being called noobish/op and Can't stand the truth, Cya.

Nar7iaOct 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

To be honest I haven't read that, it's like explaining that earth is not flat, I can try but you won't listen to me anyway,

I can say the same thing about you tbh.

we will see who will get higher I with my "bronze" attitude or you with your "challenger" one.

Lmao dude why do you keep putting words in my mouth? I never said you have bronze attitude or I have challenger attitude and no thnx but I have something called 'real life' , I am not here to compete with people on who gets higher rank neither do I live in virtual world of league but you might do so yea I wish you gl getting challenger.

I guess it is pointless to argue with somebody who cryies about his main champion being called noobish/op and Can't stand the truth

Again and again you just keep repeating the same thing without providing any actual and meaningful proof or explanation. Stop beating the broken drum ffs. If vayne is indeed SO OP as you are saying then go ahead elaborate why or show some proofs and don't just keep whining because thats exactly what bronze players do. I can keep saying 'x' champ op all day long but it won't make it a fact and lmao seriously out of all champs you call vayne a noobish champ? Whats next thing you wanna say ? Annie and tryndamere require insane micro management and mechanics? Rofl

Cya

Bye [slayer-jinx-catface]

ChalizardOct 11, 20161 votes

I have shown you but you blindly keep telling me that she is balanced and requires skill which is not True obviously. I have normal life too, the difference between us is just that Im better and know a Little bit more about this game, man, just get used to it and your life will be easier. Cya again ;)

Nar7iaOct 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I have shown you but you blindly keep telling me that she is balanced and requires skill which is not True obviously

No you haven't shown anything except spewing out 'VAYNE IS OP' garbage repeatedly. I showed you statistics , I explained why your points are false and all you have done in this discussion is repeating the same 'VAYNE OP' non sense over and over.

I have normal life too, the difference between us is just that Im better and know a Little bit more about this game, man, just get used to it and your life will be easier. Cya again ;)

Cool ..congratz but you say its of no use talking with me , you say cya and then you bother to post again XD Dude you just showed how pathetic and hypocritical you are. Seriously just stop posting already you are only embarrassing yourself. Ok you are better than me at a video game , OMFG YOU ARE BETTER THAN ME AT THESE PIXELS :O Gratz , want a medal now? Btw I have been playing ranked for barely 1 and half month or so and in your first ranked season you were silver while I am gold :)

And no thnx I bet my life is better than you because I don't feel so insecure that I need to inflate my e-penis and ego on video game forums by trying to insult someone. Yeah cya again but I bet you will post again :D

ChalizardOct 11, 20161 votes

Im just better man chill out, don't get mad, Im higher and know better, don't feel offended I have told you why she is op and easy but I See you can't even read and understand truth probably that's why you are in Gold, just keep trainig and maybe one Day you will be as good as I am ;)

Nar7iaOct 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Im just better man chill out, don't get mad, Im higher and know better, don't feel offended I have told you why she is op and easy but I See you can't even read and understand truth probably that's why you are in Gold, just keep trainig and maybe one Day you will be as good as I am ;)

LOOOOL hahaha ok dude you are the best , happy?

ApolloclipticOct 11, 20161 votes

I just want to explain something quickly:

Not all adc's are "as weak" to CC

Obvious ones might include Sivir, but to be more clear, long range adc with good poke skills like Cait and Jynx can keep a safe distance and wreck mages or tanks trying to get close to them with CC, but Vayne (and Lucian I think too) require to be much closer to the fight, meaning good targetted CC or high amounts of it (Naut, Lulu, Vi, etc) completely destroy these champs, while a Vi or Naut ulti on a Cait may hurt her, she can often (especially with help) escape, because the distance is much bigger, as opposed to Vayne who has harder positioning in teamfights - yes I agree vayne is actually hard to play because of this.

Second, Mages (as you admitted yourself) are a little strong right now, and tanks are doing well too. While Vayne is a tank shredder, again, in teamfights, Tanks like voli and Naut can put Vayne in a devastating positioning if they get close, and with all the mage cc being thrown around, she can't dodge it all, which is why a lot of Vayne players split push for dueling, and enter team fights late while big moves are on CD or enemies are low.

assassins are typically the best way to deal with adc's and with less assassins and more cc heavy mages and tanks, vayne has a hard time in team fights, which suggests that she is off-meta right now, but still doing well.

Finally, while LCS matches CAN drag out, they are intense the entire time, and if someone picked a "weak early game champ" they would not reach the late game, but because they picked early strong champs, both sides are more equal and have less weaknesses to exploit. If late game hyper-carries are not being used, it's because the opponents shut down the late game with early game plays, but since both teams choose balanced champs (in terms of duration of game) the games drag out because opportunities are scarce Normal games very rarely end in 15 minutes, and 20 minutes is only because noobs want to surr, bronze and silver might end quickly because one good player can push to victory fast, but after that, games drag out, Gold has probably the longest games on avg, while above gold teams start to get better at closing games and it goes down a bit.