Why is it that manaless champions tend to have high sustain?

Limrick·8/8/2018, 3:35:48 AM·34 votes·11,925 views

Mana requires you to manage your spell use carefully, because running out of the stuff makes you a lot less effective. A champion not having to worry about mana at all is already at a massive advantage. They can't be forced to back unless they lose too much health to continue, unlike mana champs, who have to back when OoM. So why is it then that these manaless champions have such ridiculous sustain?

Aatrox Akali DrMundo Garen LeeSin Mordekaiser Renekton Rengar Tryndamere Vladimir Vladimir Vladimir Vladimir Vladimir Zac All have absurd built-in sustain and have no mana to manage.

Katarina Kled Riven Shyvana Yasuo Have no built in heals, but synergize incredibly well with sustain items, such as Hextech Gunblade on Kat, Ravenous Hydra on Kled and Riven, and lifesteal in general on Shyvana and Yasuo.

Kennen RekSaiGnar Rumble Shen Zed Are manaless with no easy access to sustain from items.

Seems that energy based champs are lesser offenders than the others, which is odd considering they at least have SOMETHING to manage.

So why is it, Riot, that champions who can only be forced back by nearly killing them tend to have incredible sustain to make that almost impossible?

EDIT: Forgot Gnar existed, added him to the bottom list

44 Comments

Frosted Tips8/8/2018, 3:49:15 AM30 votes

DrMundo, Mordekaiser, Vladimir, and Zac all use health as their source to use abilities so they kinda should have sustain built into their kits.

Riven doesn't love life steal items or item 3812 until at least her 3rd item and same goes for Yasuo and Shyvana is a jungler so you kinda need sustain.

RekSai also has built in sustain and it is because she is a jungler so she needs it.

wildfox998/8/2018, 4:45:45 AM8 votes

some of them like Mordekaiser Vladimir DrMundo use their HP as resource bar,the problem is that their HP cost are irrilevant (especially when theystart to stack HP) and their sustain heals way more than the value they lose

Critmaster Garen8/8/2018, 12:41:17 PM5 votes

Garen pays a hefty price for his sustain.

it only works out of combat. that means during midgame teamfights and extended skirmishes he essentially doesnt have a passive or the in combat sustain that other juggernauts have to help them heal through the pain. lifesteal is inefficient on him.

DrMundo Darius Illaoi Volibear Trundle Udyr

actually a lot of mana using champs have better sustain than garen, when they utilize it in fights.

garens passive is literally only useful when youre already winning fights. pre lvl 11, his total regeneration is usually barely better than other champions base health regeneration, and his passive is on a 9 second cooldown and easily disabled.

flibitydoo8/8/2018, 8:03:11 PM4 votes

of the 10 manaless champs you've listed with sustain, only one of them is a ranged champion

and that one ranged champion, Vladimir has like 100 less attack range than the standard 550 base attack range that every other ranged champion gets.

And if we look more into these champs, pretty much all of them are designed to absorb damage when they dish it out. Every single one of them has an ideal position of being next to an enemy so they're going to get hit. They actually need it to survive. Especially the ones that are junglers.

It's very basic game design.

It's like the stupidity of people in gameplay who make threads about how there's no real defensive items on xerath- why in the blazes would xerath need to tank damage? The gameplan on that champ is to stand 1000 units away from the closest threat and blast them off screen;he don't need defensive items.

rtbf2216514128/8/2018, 4:00:55 AM4 votes

Did you just say ALL manaless champions don't manage energy, rage, and other sources?

Lee sin can only shield so many times. There is no way to increase this.

Tryndamere requires attacking.

Etc.

Sire Hippington8/8/2018, 8:14:21 PM3 votes

Because them beeing manaless usually is balanced out by them needing to get rather close and personal to do things, meaning they will take return damage whenever they try to do something. Without sustain, they would need overtuned numbers that allow them to all-in you as they'd have a hard time dealing with harras and trades otherwise.

TheDevice8/8/2018, 4:29:56 AM3 votes

Most manaless champions are early - mid game bullies. Aatrox Garen Renekton They trade late game power for early / mid game power. Their priority is to get fed as much as possible in that early game to help close out games before enemy late game carries. Their job is to stop late game carries from doing their job.

Carry champs like Fiora Camille Darius all have mana for a reason. It's meant to make them less strong early game.

That's the idea anyway. not sure how well it holds true for certain champs like Tryndamere

Blåbæret8/8/2018, 5:07:07 PM2 votes

Lifesteal on Shyvana lmao. The only item she MAY build with lifesteal is Bork. Shit example.

FlameHalbrdOkido8/9/2018, 3:18:51 AM1 votes

Any champ that's in the jg needs good sustain: Lee, zac, rengar(tho his sustain should probably like 1 burst on a long CD as an assassin), zac sustain can actually be countered just step on the goop he drops

Subject 58/8/2018, 5:40:09 PM1 votes

Yeah but it'd be a massive buff if those champions had mana instead.

Akali Could use her Q 5-10 times in a row without going oom Zed Could harrass you forever with Q's and spam way more often because he isn't barred from energy Kennen You would forever not be able to use your keyboard because his new build is mana stacking and AP based for stun locks.

Infinite Saught8/8/2018, 5:41:35 PM1 votes

Katarina can't synergize well with HGB's healing because most of her damage is AOE. She only gets decent healing if she also goes Ravenous Hunter. Otherwise HGB doesn't heal for much.

Norglics8/8/2018, 6:08:43 PM1 votes

yasuo has built in heal , it is hidden but still his hp regen is probably the highest of all champs :D

aaaustindestroy18/8/2018, 6:45:57 PM1 votes

That's the thing, though. The only way for those champions to be forced to back is through loss of health - So, they should be able to sustain at least somewhat so they can't be abused by poke champions. And most manaless or energy-cost champions tend to have weaker abilities and/or stats to make up for their lack of resource.

The Space Cowboy8/8/2018, 7:09:30 PM1 votes

So they can stay in lane as long as they want of course.

hrooza dota 8/9/2018, 1:13:49 AM1 votes

will its their advantage over others and its fair as long as the champ it self is fair. besides you always have to back to buy items anyway.

TheSingularity8/9/2018, 1:53:42 AM1 votes

Kled generally goes titanic over ravenous. His built in sustain is skarl instantly replenishing about half his HP bar