Please Nerf Triforce and not the Champs That Abuse It

Limrick·Aug 12, 2016·74 votes·4,602 views

We all know how this song and dance ends. Riot will end up nerfing champs left and right because they're "too strong", when they were totally fine before the Triforce change. And then when they finally realize that they need to just nerf the item, it'll be too late, and the champs that are strong with it will be useless. Honestly, Jax, Hecarim, and Irelia were completely balanced before, even a little weak. The fact that Fizz and Ekko are choosing it over Lichbane, which is a perfect item for them, should show how overpowered Triforce is.

127 Comments

KillerPenguinsAug 12, 201629 votes

I feel like this is a symptom of another problem, which is that build paths are all sort of.. merging. It's at the point where trying to itemize on a game-by-game basis is pointless because there are 3 core items for any ad champ, 3 for any ap champ, 3 for teemo, and 3 for a tank, and by the time you've gotten them the game is already decided.

dapositivevikingAug 13, 20161 votes

what is core on teemo?

LimrickAug 13, 20166 votes

Liandry's, Nashor's, Void Staff.

ZarvanisAug 13, 20167 votes

A lot of people actually start item 3022 -> item 3085 , even in Diamond. Gunblade item 3146 is also a really popular core item.

Match-ups are the deciding factor, of course. Often AP will be the better option, but not always.

GhostOfShrimpmasAug 13, 20161 votes

Why is Mallet so popular on him? I never see anyone else buy it, but everyone seems on the same page that it's core for Teemo.

Anu3isIIAug 13, 20164 votes

Gnar buys it too from time to time.

On-Hit Teemo builds a lot of DPS items, and he is mostly picked against melee champions. If he can kite them and also keep them in his Auto-Attack Range, he will shoot them to death.

Frozen Mallet is a fantastic item for both kiting and chasing, allowing him to control melee champions, especially the immobile ones.

JunkοAug 13, 20169 votes

Gives crazy kiting and chasing power.

RalanrAug 13, 20165 votes

Once Teemo has those then unless you're mobile you will never escape him.

It is incredibly frustrating and fits incredibly well with his thematics.

LimrickAug 13, 20161 votes

Yeah, but the "standard" Teemo build is still item 3151 item 3115 item 3135

Anu3isIIAug 13, 20166 votes

For Teemo... in the last months the On-Hit build has been slowly arising, making it a legit play style of our dear demon.

It is like Tank Triforce Ekko and AP Ekko, both builds work, but they work differently.

SylvantAug 14, 20161 votes

indeed, even champs which kits offer scaling with various stats and effects, like Evelynn begin to limit more and more to few more fitting items and neglect countering the enemy via item build

bill84Aug 13, 201612 votes

I agree, but can we stop using the word "abuse" on this? Irelia is not "abusing" tri-force because it is an item that she has always bought, it just happens to be strong right now, but it was intended for champs like her. An example of abuse would be Ezreal and IBG because it is not at all intended for him. I get that tri-force is strong but fighters are not abusing it, it is just a good item for them that is strong. Same goes for mages and rylais. None of them are abusing rylais it is just a little too strong for champs with DOT.

PapaGreg21Aug 12, 20166 votes

It is sad that the community now fears that strong items will sejuani their favorite champs and have to plead for the balance team to hit the item first. I assume it is just an excuse for them to cycle the meta and push champs either forward or backward from being balanced as any other explanation seems bizarre

DengedenAug 13, 20162 votes

I love that "Sejuani'd" is the new "Olaf'd" since both are equally inaccurate memes.

The meta cycles because that's the only thing that can happen in a game without hard counters. It's not an "excuse" it's a hard truth.

BastionKrossAug 13, 20166 votes

How is getting "Sejuani'd" inaccurate? She got too strong because of cinderhulk, got nerfed down to a reasonable level, then cinderhulk was nerfed so she became underpowered and was stuck that way for months until her compensation buffs finally came the next season.

This thread is all about preventing what happened to Sej from happening to other champs. Make no mistake, it's complete bullshit. It's also made even worse when it's so preventable in the first place.

If Trinity Force champs are all too strong, then nerfing a single shared, core item instead of multiple champions would be easier, quicker, and prevent anyone from getting Sejuani'd.

DengedenAug 13, 20161 votes

That is incorrect, she and Cinderhulk got separately nerfed until she was no longer pick&ban in LCS.

DroogzyAug 13, 20163 votes

...You literally just repeated what he was saying, Sejuani was nerfed specifically because of cinderhulk, then cinderhulk was nerfed...Sejuani'd refers to when a champion is nerfed because they have a strong interaction with an item. Only for subsequently that very item that made them strong in the first place is then nerfed.

Its also referred to when talking about the favoritism behind cyclical imbalance. But for this case, the first term is what Sejuani'd is referring to. How is that inaccurate?

Patch 5.6: Sejuani is nerfed specifically because of her Cinderhulk interaction. The patch note even says this point blank. http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-56-notes

Subsequently, patch 5.9: cinderhulk, the very item that was making Sejuani strong and all other Cinderhulk users strong, is then nerfed. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-59-notes

At this point, Sejuani was actually relatively balanced, but hence the second part of Sejuani'd comes from patch 5.10 where Riot decides they don't feel like having a champion being played anymore, and deliver a nasty nerf for literally no reason other then to remove them from competitive play. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-510-notes

So tell me, how is the Sejuani meme inaccurate? Because its pretty much on point.

OleandervineAug 12, 20165 votes

Unfortunately, that's the state of the balance team at times. I really despise when champions get balanced around items, because then it locks that item into their build because they'll be an invalid without it.

DeathBot666Aug 13, 20165 votes

The problem with nerfing the item is that it will hurt everyone who builds it and isn't broken.

Treune81Aug 12, 20164 votes

What was fault of Azir? They could nerf Rylai but they nerfed Azir.

LimrickAug 12, 201618 votes

Azir does too much too well, no item will completely fix Azir's problems.

Treune81Aug 12, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Azir does too much too well, no item will completely fix Azir's problems.

All Azir mains will say you Azir's problem is RYLAI. Old Azir wasn't toxic.Riot destroyed his kit with Rylai slowing and w AS change.

LimrickAug 13, 20165 votes

Never said Rylai's isn't a problem for Azir, but nerfing it won't suddenly make him balanced. It'll make him weak because he's been balanced around his core items, which is exactly what this post is about, champs should not be rebalanced because an item makes them too strong.

Treune81Aug 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Never said Rylai's isn't a problem for Azir, but nerfing it won't suddenly make him balanced. It'll make him weak because he's been balanced around his core items, which is exactly what this post is about, champs should not be rebalanced because an item makes them too strong.

''but nerfing it won't suddenly make him balanced. It'll make him weak because he's been balanced around his core items''

They can buff Azir if Rylai gets nerf.Rylai is toxic item with Azir.Rylai wasn't Azir's old build.

LimrickAug 13, 20167 votes

Rylai is a toxic item in general. Azir, Zyra, Cassiopeia, Aurelion Sol have to build it as a core requirement. That alone is reason to nerf it. However, Rylai's is not the only problem Azir has, it is just the biggest one. He needs a rework. He needs to go back to how he used to be.

EDIT: Obviously there are more champs that rely on it, those were just a few more prominent examples.

StaliniumAug 13, 20162 votes

And Viktor. I'd say it's pretty much 100% core on him- makes second explosion of E harder to get away from, R harder to escape (thus dealing more damage) and is at least imo part of the reason he's so strong right now

Pierce The VealAug 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

And Viktor. I'd say it's pretty much 100% core on him- makes second explosion of E harder to get away from, R harder to escape (thus dealing more damage) and is at least imo part of the reason he's so disgustingly broken right now

Ftfy

Treune81Aug 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Rylai is a toxic item in general. Azir, Zyra, Cassiopeia, Aurelion Sol have to build it as a core requirement. That alone is reason to nerf it. However, Rylai's is not the only problem Azir has, it is just the biggest one. He needs a rework. He needs to go back to how he used to be

Rylai is toxic for only Azir and Cassio.

LimrickAug 13, 20162 votes

Aurelion and Zyra are balanced around the item. That's pretty toxic.

AstôlfoAug 12, 20162 votes

Uh yeah which is why Azir is doing completely trash right now? And is one of the worst midlaners possible to pick?

LimrickAug 13, 20164 votes

Because he got completely obliterated with nerfs, and he STILL is a top pick in Diamond+

NotCounterAug 13, 20164 votes

Ekko and Fizz are building Triforce over Lich Bane because they're playing tank and not assassin, for obvious reasons because Tri is much stronger as a singular damage item and syngergizes with tanky builds.

As for the other champions Hecarim, Irelia, and Jax were always strong people just didn't play them until Triforce changes put them in the spotlight. People don't seem to understand that just because something is unpopular doesn't mean it's bad, or that it is popular means it's overpowered.

DealthAug 13, 20164 votes

Here's what you don't understand. For example:

3 champions are OP with triforce 20 champions are balanced with triforce

riot nerfs triforce

3 champions are balanced with triforce 20 champions are now underpowered and need buffed

LimrickAug 14, 20162 votes

There are absolutely more OP champs with Triforce than otherwise. Corki Nasus are okay with Triforce

Ekko Fizz Gangplank Hecarim Irelia Jax Yasuo are OP with Triforce.

Even some random champs can do decently with it when it's an item not at all designed for them.

Also, Nasus has needed buffs for a long time, and Triforce actually did make him slightly better, but he is still weak. Corki needed that crit that old Triforce gave, which is why he is weaker now.

Meep ManAug 13, 20163 votes

I think the best way to nerf Triforce is remove the 5% movement speed stat it provides. Right now, it just randomly provides 5% increased movement speed out of no where, so that should really get removed. Nothing that builds into it provides % movement speed anymore.

Irelia BotAug 13, 20163 votes

No one want to accept the idea of making Sheen have 5% movement speed instead of 10% CDR.

Then lower the CDR on trinity and IBG.

IBG gets 6% Movement speed and Trinity loses 10% CDR.

I know the argument of "sheen works well together with CDR and the sheen proc" but considering 2 of the three items that it builds into have movement speed and trinity get it fro mout of thin air while the third would not be killed by gaining it in place of 10% of it's CDR I see no real issues with this idea.

FantasySniperAug 14, 20161 votes

I wouldn't mind seeing it happen, but Lich Bane would become more similar to Luden's than it should be, assuming the recipe won't be changed.

foinhasAug 12, 20162 votes

Hecarim was secretly op, irelia was already very strong before trinity and jax is jax. Ekko and fizz can build whatever they want...

Can you please give a good argument of why trinity is "too stronk"? Did nasus became completely broken? No. Did corki get to pass over the 50% winrate, even though he was buffed as well? No.

LimrickAug 13, 20168 votes

Ekko and Fizz should not be able to build whatever they want. That's as ridiculous as a Jinx building Rabadon's and it being okay. Triforce is a bruiser item being abused by assassins, THAT is the problem. Nasus was already extremely weak, he just needs buffs. Corki relied on the crit from old Triforce, which is why he was buffed. He just needs to be buffed again. Irelia went from a situational decent pick to a dominant force in the top lane, basically becoming the new Fiora. Hecarim saw no play in any ELO, and Jax was out of favor in the meta. The fact that one item made them all suddenly OP is a testament to how absurdly powerful that item is. Triforce is simply too cost effective for what you get, despite being the second most expensive item. Even Yasuo, who loses out on the mana offered by it, is still overwhelmingly positive with it. Bring it down to 30% attack speed and lower the Sheen damage slightly and maybe it will be a balanced item.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 13, 20164 votes

Ekko and Fizz were building full tank earlier in S6. Fizz built BoRK and Cinderhulk at different times in Season 5, and I feel like Ekko might have as well, if he existed and was known at the time. They pretty much build whatever they want.

The DeckownerAug 12, 20162 votes

sejuani'ing champions is just an excuse, Rito had literally said themselvws they don't want to make everything balanced, but instead make op champions rotate and each gets the spot light for a moment or so before nerfed to shit. They did it to cinderhulk, then they did it to devourer, now triforce.

Sad TyrantAug 13, 20162 votes

The easiest way to nerf the to stop fizz and ekko buying it is to murder their Base attack damage.

However item 3078 is Fucking Expensive and you are gonna spent the first 10 - 15 mins of the game getting it

Too TonAug 12, 20161 votes

Those champs are strong with it not ALL champs. For example: Nasus is not OP even with triforce while the other ops are. Gut them :D

LimrickAug 12, 20169 votes

Nah, Nasus just needs buffs.

MohawkBirdAug 13, 20163 votes

Nasus seems more like an iceborn guy to me given his lack of mobility.

JunkοAug 13, 20162 votes

Iceborn is pretty bad on him since it can kill minions you would otherwise want to stack from. It also pushes whenever you want it or not, while doing less damage to turrets when you actually want to push. TF gives sticking power anyway, also CDR for his point and click almost stun (which doesn't stack with other slows anymore since like forever).

I hate my ADCAug 13, 20162 votes

Iceborn isn't bad for Nasus. It's better than Triforce on almost any matchups.

Nasus is a passive laner. Glacial Shroud is one of the best item for him during laning phase against any AD champion. It gives the mana to keep the Q flowing and the armor to ignore or fight back against his lane opponent with his passive lifesteal. Triforce, on the other hand, has a Stinger on its build path. That's where the second 10% CDR come from and Stinger is an awful item for Nasus. You don't need attack speed and you'll have to spend money on useless stats until you can complete your Triforce. You want your 20% CDR ASAP with Nasus and Triforce either delay that or make you much weaker for it. Glacial Shroud offers the 10% CDR for less with much more useful stats.

The AoE from Iceborn won't deny as many stacks as you think it would. It barely does anything to surrounding minions and any good Nasus will know how to deal with the Iceborn AoE component when farming. What really make Iceborn shine is the peeling power it offers. Late game Nasus, Triforce is utterly useless. You can't walk up to the enemy carry and kill them, you'll get destroyed in a matter of seconds, no matter how many tank items you built. You won't be defending your ADC or APC by running after enemy champions either. You will be defending them by slowing the living shit out of anyone trying to get past you. Wither alone won't cut it.

WoonStruckAug 14, 20161 votes

IBG is actually really good on him solely due to the build path.

If Frozen Heart isn't a useful item to pick up that game, IBG makes a great stand-in if you need an early armor item to nullify riven, panth, etc with a full armor runepage so you can scale. The sheen lets you toss E->Q onto them when they have the damage potential to actually get through your Q stack healing via passive, laying down massive unexpected damage, which makes them think twice about trading, letting you sustain it all back. They then call for ganks and dives and such, often netting you a kill, sometimes two, for every death you take, and pulling pressure off the rest of the map.

It literally gives you a free laning phase from glacial, kindlegem, and sheen offering 30% of your CDR for less than 3k of your gold. Just don't combine for the IBG until you're going to be primarily pushing (not just afk stacking) and teamfighting. The main purpose of IBG, IMO, is an armor CDR item. TF makes you too squishy to the ADC; you'll often just get kited to death.

Now go forth and stack with a vengeance.

TFBaamAug 12, 20161 votes

yea, i can agree as a top laner. if you snowball and get a big gold lead over ur enemy top, you just build triforce, you can skip ur core items entirely. most ad tops work amazing with triforce. more than you think.

foinhasAug 12, 201618 votes