When Kog was first released his Ult did 200/300/400 damage to champions

Rebonack··58 votes·3,968 views

With a 0.3 AP ratio and no bonus AD ratio.

He was widely considered terrible until Riot replaced the old Q passive (free %armor pen) with attack speed.

But they accidentally gave him multiplicative attack speed, meaning he could hit 2.5 attack speed with runes and two IAS items. That was fixed pretty quick, but in the process Riot bugged his W, causing it to double his bonus AD whilst active (lulz). After that was fixed he was considered bad again.

Then Riot increased his W duration to ten(!) seconds, gave his Q magic AND armor shred, and gave his Ult a bonus AD ratio. That resulted in nerfs, of course. Kog lost 40 attack range, two seconds off his W, and 40 damage off his Ult. He was fine for a while, but then the old Unholy Grail (80 AP and everything) was released and suddenly AP Kog was absolutely unstoppable. His Ult's stack limit was increased as a result to prevent him from spamming forever.

Next up, Riot removed the mana cost on Kog's W and remade his Q from a dueling tool into a tank-busting tool (okay?) Nothing really came of that-

-until Riot remade Bloodthirster, launching the game into a hyper-carry clusterfuck. Kog ended up losing a chunk of his base speed, a bunch of HP, as well as another 40 damage off his Ult by the time the dust settled.

Then came the remake! In which Kog ate seven nerfs and most of his kit nuance in exchange for being an immobile turret. OnHit itemization was broken as a result and Riot 'reverted' Kog because he was too strong in the hands of mere mortals and totally ignored by competitive. The revert, of course, didn't revert everything. Kog's base stats were still ass for the most part, his W cost mana again, and his Ult was still a shell of its former self.

And next up!

Kog's Ult is going to get returned a bit. More damage against healthy targets, less damage against injured targets. Generally a buff to his mid-game power. Maybe a nerf to late, we'll see. Depends largely on whether or not the ratios end up changing, too.

Honestly...

All this nonsense makes me pine for the old Kog.

I mean the old Kog, here. Like, before the buffs that resulted in even worse nerfs sort of old Kog. Because that seems to be what happens to him. Riot tries buffing his damage somehow and holy shit suddenly Kog is unstoppable and they have to nerf the parts of his kit that make him unique. Or, barring that, at least try to give Kog an identity beyond 'does all the damage' because that has resulted in knife-edge balance and head aches. Kog really needs to offer his team something other than just raw damage. Something unique. Something no other ADC really brings to the table. That was the whole point of the Marksmen pass, wasn't it? Giving them all a reason to be picked?

Because 'needs to have a team built around him' isn't a reason to pick Kog. That's a weakness. You can build a team around MF or Twitch, too, and they'll be better off for it, but they can function on their own, too. 'Hyper-carry' isn't a niche, either. That's a success curve. And one that isn't unique to Kog.

Instead of monkeying with Kog's damage, focus on the parts of his kit that aren't damage if you guys want to buff him. His ability to grant vision. His ability to shred resistance. His ability to lay down persistent slowing fields. His totally unused Lore hook regarding eating stuff. Anything besides his damage. Because fiddling with Kog's damage output often just makes the situation worse. There's quite a history of that, in fact.

48 Comments

Latex Choker10 votes

Kog'Maw was originally designed as a tank-busting hybrid who was supposed to build kind of like Jax. I miss Old Kog'maw greatly (52% total armor pen after using Q was hilarious, as was the old "Build Madred's and full tank and still outduel everyone")

Then Riot release Vayne and slowly but steadily pushed Kog'maw out of his original niche and towards another generic marksman who doesn't bring anything but the damages to the table.

Rebonack9 votes

[{quoted}](name=007 James Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lBfe7QrR,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-10-05T10:26:14.184+0000)

Kog'Maw was originally designed as a tank-busting hybrid who was supposed to build kind of like Jax. I miss Old Kog'maw greatly (52% total armor pen after using Q was hilarious, as was the old "Build Madred's and full tank and still outduel everyone")

Then Riot release Vayne and slowly but steadily pushed Kog'maw out of his original niche and towards another generic marksman who doesn't bring anything but the damages to the table.

This right here is Kog's biggest problem.

He has always had three competing identities in his kit. Artillery platform, long range machine gun, and tank-buster. Riot has been releasing new champions who specialize in one of those three aspects, do it better than Kog, and have a bunch of other perks besides. Kog arguably has too many competing identities in his Kit. Riot tried to pick one out and focus on it, but they chose poorly. Or at least the post remake follow-through was bad.

Kog could probably use a full VGU. All the fiddling has really fractured his kit. Riot needs to pick ONE aspect and focus EVERYTHING on that. Given how many poke ADCs and long range ADCs we have, I would say the best route would be resist-shredding tank-buster. Vayne is the selfish tank-buster. Zeroing Kog in on destroying enemy resistance (and thus augmenting his team's damage) as his main thing would give him a unique niche to fill.

TiiGz1 votes

I really like the idea of Kog destroying resistances and think this could give him a really unique niche as well. ADC's are traditionally the carries of their team based on their damage output, but allowing kogmaw to shred resistances so that his teammates can dish out more damage would make him a Utility Carry which I think is a really cool idea.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

I really like the idea of Kog destroying resistances and think this could give him a really unique niche as well. ADC's are traditionally the carries of their team based on their damage output, but allowing kogmaw to shred resistances so that his teammates can dish out more damage would make him a Utility Carry which I think is a really cool idea.

Exactly. It would give Kog two team types he would fit really well into.

  1. Teams with high utility and low damage (protect the Kog). Kog's damage augmenting abilities would allow such a team to be much more of a threat than they would be normally.

  2. Teams with high burst damage and lower sustained damage. Kog would be able to soften up hard targets so his team's Mages and Assassins can remove them decisively.

And that isn't considering how it could be handy in generalist teams as well.

As an added perk, shredding resist fits well with Kog's acid theme.

TiiGz1 votes

Ya and he is still a carry and would need to be protected for the massive utility he provides, I like it a lot.

Also, giving him an ability that gives him X% armor/MR shred for every minion he kills would also preserve his hyper carry status. X would have to be a pretty small number.

You could also go further with this and tie inthe part of his lore where he eats stuff. Get rid of one of his spells (probably e) and replace it with this:

(E) Kog'maw lashes out his tongue and consumes an enemy minion below 50% health. For every minion consumed Kog'maw gains X armor/MR shred on his basic attacks. This attack deals X amount of damage to champions and slows them 20/28/36/44/52%

--The tongue lash would give kog'maw a way to scale from a range, it is also a skill shot and still retains it's slow for peel -- the cooldown should probably be pretty high in order to prevent over scaling through consuming minions

I don't know Rebonack, I think we're on to something here!

Hyrum Graff2 votes

{quoted}

As an added perk, shredding resist fits well with Kog's acid theme.

Acid Damage Carry, amirite

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Don't we already have Kayle for resistance shredding? Or are we assuming that Kog's VGU would come after Kayle's?

Rebonack5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lBfe7QrR,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2016-10-05T16:12:33.591+0000)

Don't we already have Kayle for resistance shredding? Or are we assuming that Kog's VGU would come after Kayle's?

Not really. Kayle only goes up to 15% hybrid resist shred. It has zero tie-in with her kit and it could be replaced with literally any form of ramping damage OnHit. It's actually one of the least impact resist shred effects in the game.

When I suggest making Kog the resist shredding ADC, I mean devoting both his passive AND his Q wholly to crushing enemy resistance. Something like...

P - Eldritch Acid: Kog'Maw's basic attacks and spells shred (flat value) resistance for four seconds, stacking up to (number) times.

Q - Caustic Spittle: (Passive IAS removed, cooldown decreased dramatically) Kog'Maw fires a projectile that deals magic damage and applies the Corroded debuff for four seconds. The Corroded debuff causes stacks of Eldritch Acid to shred (percentage) resist with the flat value as a minimum. Successive applications of Caustic Spittle increases the percentile shred value.

Basically, if you leave Kog alone he'll shred you down into negative resistance. I used to run a MR shred build back when Koggy's Q did flat rather than percentile shred. Being able to nuke 70 MR off people was amazing.

Need Gold 4 Tent1 votes

or soraka's 20x starcall lol

Rebonack6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir HaxaIot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lBfe7QrR,comment-id=00020000000100000000,timestamp=2016-10-05T17:22:57.189+0000)

or soraka's 20x starcall lol

I'm still waiting for a new Tank with Soraka's old Starcall as their Q.

Get on it, Riot.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

I'm still waiting for a new Tank with Soraka's old Starcall as their Q.

Get on it, Riot.

Riot pls, I need dis

Daxterr1 votes

The good ol days Soraka item 3068

It Hertz When IP1 votes

As great a unique niche as that would be, I'm worried that it would result in him being VERY difficult to counter in terms of build.

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lBfe7QrR,comment-id=00020000000100000001,timestamp=2016-10-05T21:47:54.286+0000)

As great a unique niche as that would be, I'm worried that it would result in him being VERY difficult to counter in terms of build.

No doubt, but that's kind of the point. Kog is already difficult to counter in terms of defensive itemization. That would be the aim, actually. Kog would be a very strong counter-pick against really beefy teams while being weak against high burst and strong target selection. Like Vayne, you don't build against Kog. You build against the rest of his team and try to kill Kog as quickly as possible.

Teridax685 votes

Post-rework Kog'Maw could've been a great identity if his W properly rooted him and made his shots ground-targeted, like miniature ult projectiles. Reverting his rework may have prevented him from abusing on-hit builds, but most of his issues still remain: his Q feels useless, his E feels weak, and his ult just doesn't feel right as a ranged execute. If nothing else, flipping the values and making it deal extra damage to targets above a certain health percentage would force Kog to get in closer to efficiently kill his opponents, while satisfying players looking to use him as a poke machine.

I think the core issue with Kog right now, and one that will remain with his current state, is that his core damage engine is just not that interesting, despite containing the bulk of his power: in the end, Kog's W is just a particularly strong attack steroid, one that he can activate at will with eventually very little downtime. Unlike other champions, who have to either trade off one strength for another (e.g. Jinx trading dueling power for range with her Q), or do a little dance to unlock their full power (e.g. Jinx again with her minigun, Ashe building up Q stacks, Jhin emptying his gun for that extra-strength shot), Kog just gets everything a marksman could ask for at the press of a button, at the cost of a much less interesting kit practically everywhere else. Kog's W means that any fight against him boils down to bursting him down before he kills you, with no real middle ground: his damage is mostly undodgeable, he has enough range to start DPSing you before you can start attacking him, and his relatively target-agnostic damage means tanks and fighters can't easily build to survive going up against him. While he may have some counterplay as an immobile squishy marksman, his main damage output has very little counterplay which, combined with his general lack of other strengths, is why he's been so consistently hard to balance. Koggles needed more than just a revert, and hopefully there'll be a day where he can feel both fun and healthy as an artillery champion, while also having a kit that is interesting to use as a whole, and not concentrated around just one ability. Ideally, he'd have a new passive, too, as experience has proven time and again that on-death revenge innates just don't really work that well (sorry Sion).

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

Post-rework Kog'Maw could've been a great identity if his W properly rooted him and made his shots ground-targeted, like miniature ult projectiles. Reverting his rework may have prevented him from abusing on-hit builds, but most of his issues still remain: his Q feels useless, his E feels weak, and his ult just doesn't feel right as a ranged execute. If nothing else, flipping the values and making it deal extra damage to targets above a certain health percentage would force Kog to get in closer to efficiently kill his opponents, while satisfying players looking to use him as a poke machine.

I pitched the idea of a rooting W (or even turning a rooting W into his Ult) while the remake was still around. Turn Kog into a literal artillery platform. But of course that didn't pan out. The big problem with the remake is that Riot kept lumping more early and mid game power into his W and then acted surprised when this resulted in Kog's early and mid game being too strong. If they had just stuck with Repertoire's original idea of little to no base damage on Kog's W (with total AD scaling) and keeping his attack speed locked up in Q they probably could have balanced it. Hell, they could have balanced Kog post hotfix just by tweaking his base HP and literally nothing else. His only problem was actually surviving the lane phase.

I think the core issue with Kog right now, and one that will remain with his current state, is that his core damage engine is just not that interesting, despite containing the bulk of his power: in the end, Kog's W is just a particularly strong attack steroid, one that he can activate at will with eventually very little downtime.

That's a symptom of the true hyper-carries in general. Take a look at Twitch and Vayne. Their damage is also quite reliable. And that's an important feature for a true hyper-carry. If they can't do their damage reliably, then people will pick another one who can. All of these champs are stat-checks to some degree. That's a result of being designed as a platform for a full item build and not much else.

If we're talking why Kog is so unpopular, though, that's an even more interesting question. My impression is that most people don't enjoy Kog (even when he's numerically quite powerful) because he's lacking in agency. He has no cool tricks to protect himself. He has no way of aggressively starting a fight (barring bushwacks and firing over a wall, which was nerfed when he lost attack range). He is, for the most part, a reactive champion. He responds to things happening rather than making things happen. And people prefer the champs who can make cool plays even when they're weaker than Kog.

Unlike other champions, who have to either trade off one strength for another (e.g. Jinx trading dueling power for range with her Q), or do a little dance to unlock their full power (e.g. Jinx again with her minigun, Ashe building up Q stacks, Jhin emptying his gun for that extra-strength shot), Kog just gets everything a marksman could ask for at the press of a button, at the cost of a much less interesting kit practically everywhere else. Kog's W means that any fight against him boils down to bursting him down before he kills you, with no real middle ground: his damage is mostly undodgeable, he has enough range to start DPSing you before you can start attacking him, and his relatively target-agnostic damage means tanks and fighters can't easily build to survive going up against him. While he may have some counterplay as an immobile squishy marksman, his main damage output has very little counterplay which, combined with his general lack of other strengths, is why he's been so consistently hard to balance. Koggles needed more than just a revert, and hopefully there'll be a day where he can feel both fun and healthy as an artillery champion, while also having a kit that is interesting to use as a whole, and not concentrated around just one ability. Ideally, he'd have a new passive, too, as experience has proven time and again that on-death revenge innates just don't really work that well (sorry Sion).

's why before all this nonsense started I was saying that if Riot wanted to remake Kog, they should probably remake him as THE artillery Marksmen. Focusing around skillshots rather than an undodgeable OnHit effect would be much more engaging. Not to mention AP Kog was always fun as hell to play as. Unfortunately, Riot has decided Artillery Kog is 'unhealthy' and 'painful to play against'. I think that's the thing I miss the most about early Riot. They built champs around the concept of 'is this fun to play as?' Instead of 'is this fun to lose against?' Losing is rarely fun. And getting hard countered is always frustrating. But if you eliminate both, you end up with a homogenized mess instead of unique champions.

It Hertz When IP4 votes

They did try focusing on "is this fun to play as?" That's how we got release Kalista, Yasuo, and Zed.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lBfe7QrR,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-05T16:15:02.786+0000)

They did try focusing on "is this fun to play as?" That's how we got release Kalista, Yasuo, and Zed.

>Implying Kalista and Yasuo are any less frustrating to play against now

Anidan1 votes

the question mentioned was 'Is this fun to play as?' with nothing mentioned about against.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

The comment I replied to was talking about against. It was saying that when Riot focused on as, we ended up with champs that are frustrating to play against.

The way I interpreted the comment (which -- see the comments above -- was not how the author intended it) was that it was about those three champions on release, but not any more, and I was saying I think they are still frustrating to play against now.

Anidan1 votes

in fairness, I can't think of many champions that people here do consider fun to play against unless they're directly tied in score or winning, and even then...

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

in fairness, I can't think of many champions that people here do consider fun to play against unless they're directly tied in score or winning, and even then...

Maybe 'fun' isn't the right word. Frustrating would be more accurate. Hard-counter champions tend to be frustrating because you feel like you don't have any options against them.

Anidan1 votes

I suppose that is a better word for these kinds of conversations. While fighting a lot of the champions in League isn't 'fun' per se, many of them aren't really frustrating at least. And then you get examples like Yasuo and Kalista, and then subjectively frustrating champions.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

I suppose that is a better word for these kinds of conversations. While fighting a lot of the champions in League isn't 'fun' per se, many of them aren't really frustrating at least. And then you get examples like Yasuo and Kalista, and then subjectively frustrating champions.

Yep.

This is a bit on the tangential side, but hard counter champs are a worthy topic to cover when AP Artillery Kog comes up. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong about hard counter champs. And they WILL always be frustrating if you happen to be the sort of champion they counter. But when done well hard counters help to shake up the pick-pool in games like League.

The problem is when hard counter champs have too much generalist power. I'll use Kalista as the example here. In addition to being able to casually hard-counter immobile champions and most skillshot-based champs, Kalista also boasts nearly unmatched objective control due to her vision-ghosts and the back-ended damage of Rend. She can also flawlessly save an ally with her Ult and/or use it for an obscenely powerful initiation tool. Her burst damage isn't too shabby and her Q gives her additional mobility that doesn't require a target.

So we have here:

  1. Powerful hard-counter vs immobile champs and skillshot based champs
  2. Powerful objective control
  3. Very strong initiation/ally rescue
  4. Decent burst
  5. Decent at-will displacement skill

All said, she's probably doing two or three things too many. Her power is too widely spread in addition to her ability to hard-counter other champs. As a result, when she's good she totally invalidates whole classes of champions. Hard counter champs like Kalista should be niche champs, not generalists. At the very least, she needs to lose her hop OR all of her objective control. Having both spreads her power base too wide.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

MB, meant release Kalista as a complete noun, with "Yasuo" being separate. Did not mean "release Yasuo".

Kalista now isn't that hard to deal with.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lBfe7QrR,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2016-10-05T22:59:38.049+0000)

MB, meant release Kalista as a complete noun, with "Yasuo" being separate. Did not mean "release Yasuo".

Oh, got'cha. Edit it so that she's second in the list and it'll be obvious that 'release' only applies to her.

Kalista now isn't that hard to deal with.

She's still a pain for melee and anyone who relies on skillshots. If she had enough damage to be relevant, I think we'd very quickly find her very frustrating, again.

Teridax683 votes

{quoted}

That's a symptom of the true hyper-carries in general. Take a look at Twitch and Vayne. Their damage is also quite reliable. And that's an important feature for a true hyper-carry. If they can't do their damage reliably, then people will pick another one who can. All of these champs are stat-checks to some degree. That's a result of being designed as a platform for a full item build and not much else.

I definitely agree that, at the very least, the "classic" AD hypercarry model, including for non-marksman champions like Master Yi, has been to design kits mainly as vehicles for super-synergistic items, at a cost in potential unique contributions. With that said, both Twitch and Vayne have some exciting gameplay due to their assassin-y playstyle, and their approach to combat means they often have to commit heavily, and have a chance of either succeeding or messing up based on more than just their items. By contrast, Kog really has very few highs or lows in his combat pattern, which is also part of why he's not as interesting as many other champions.

{quoted}

If we're talking why Kog is so unpopular, though, that's an even more interesting question. My impression is that most people don't enjoy Kog (even when he's numerically quite powerful) because he's lacking in agency. He has no cool tricks to protect himself. He has no way of aggressively starting a fight (barring bushwacks and firing over a wall, which was nerfed when he lost attack range). He is, for the most part, a reactive champion. He responds to things happening rather than making things happen. And people prefer the champs who can make cool plays even when they're weaker than Kog.

I completely agree with this. Kog is a champion who depends so much on both his own team and the enemy's actions that it often feels like his own plays are mostly follow-up after everyone else falls into the right positions. At the same time, his ult has the potential to give him tremendous agency by letting him poke and kill enemies from massive distances, and I think he'd get to feel a lot better if he could use his ult proactively, i.e. to actually poke and seek out targets, rather than to just execute champions who have already been through combat.

{quoted}

Unfortunately, Riot has decided Artillery Kog is 'unhealthy' and 'painful to play against'.

I think Riot's always had issues designing and balancing around artillery champions, and even after Xerath isn't quite sure how to get the formula down. In their defense, they do have a point: being able to damage champions from way beyond their combat range is difficult to make healthy, especially when that damage has an uptime as high as Kog's, and if done wrong, artillery champions can make combat very one-sided. I think this is where a potential eating mechanic could come in: at least one user, and likely you too, mentioned that Kog could use a passive where he'd get to pick up drops from dead enemies to restore health and/or mana, which would force him to get into risky ranges. More generally, Koggles needs to be forced to expose himself if he hopes to ever be a proper artillery champion, which is why long-ranged champions like Lux and Xerath need to autoattack from time to time to fully function.

{quoted}

I think that's the thing I miss the most about early Riot. They built champs around the concept of 'is this fun to play as?' Instead of 'is this fun to lose against?' Losing is rarely fun. And getting hard countered is always frustrating. But if you eliminate both, you end up with a homogenized mess instead of unique champions.

As Darien Juranas mentioned below, several quite recent champions were done almost purely under the basis of being fun to play, rather than being fun to play against, and ended up with seriously mixed results. I also think that, despite Kog's overall lack of agency, he also kinda lacks nuanced counterplay as well, which is one of the reasons his balance state is so unstable. Ideally, a champion should be both fun to play and fun to play against (and fun to play with, though that tends to be a much rarer issue), and Kog'Maw isn't doing the best he can in either aspect.

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

I definitely agree that, at the very least, the "classic" AD hypercarry model, including for non-marksman champions like Master Yi, has been to design kits mainly as vehicles for super-synergistic items, at a cost in potential unique contributions. With that said, both Twitch and Vayne have some exciting gameplay due to their assassin-y playstyle, and their approach to combat means they often have to commit heavily, and have a chance of either succeeding or messing up based on more than just their items. By contrast, Kog really has very few highs or lows in his combat pattern, which is also part of why he's not as interesting as many other champions.

I want to start by thanking you for your thoughtful input on this topic.

I feel Kog would be able to do the hyper-carry thing with greater interactivity, but that would require turning his Ult into his main DPS tool rather than simply a supplemental source of damage whether it be a poke or an execute. For this to really work, the range would probably need to drop to somewhere between the level 1 and level 2 range. Still high, but within the realm of being reasonable compared to other long range champions like Ezreal. The goal would be that Kog's R would effectively replace his basic attack for the purpose of his damage output. This would require reworking his W, obviously, since an OnHit steroid would clash pretty hard with the intended goal.

I completely agree with this. Kog is a champion who depends so much on both his own team and the enemy's actions that it often feels like his own plays are mostly follow-up after everyone else falls into the right positions. At the same time, his ult has the potential to give him tremendous agency by letting him poke and kill enemies from massive distances, and I think he'd get to feel a lot better if he could use his ult proactively, i.e. to actually poke and seek out targets, rather than to just execute champions who have already been through combat.

That's one of my abiding issues with the rework, that it effectively removed the one form of agency Kog had. He would use his Ult to poke the enemy team and force them to engage on him, preferably in a situation to his team's advantage. Without that poke, all he can do is sit around and wait for someone else to start the fight. The only other ADCs with no real form of aggressive poke all have positioning tools that let them look for trouble when the situation calls for it. All Kog can do is try lobbing basic attacks over a wall.

I think Riot's always had issues designing and balancing around artillery champions, and even after Xerath isn't quite sure how to get the formula down. In their defense, they do have a point: being able to damage champions from way beyond their combat range is difficult to make healthy, especially when that damage has an uptime as high as Kog's, and if done wrong, artillery champions can make combat very one-sided. I think this is where a potential eating mechanic could come in: at least one user, and likely you too, mentioned that Kog could use a passive where he'd get to pick up drops from dead enemies to restore health and/or mana, which would force him to get into risky ranges. More generally, Koggles needs to be forced to expose himself if he hopes to ever be a proper artillery champion, which is why long-ranged champions like Lux and Xerath need to autoattack from time to time to fully function.

That was one of my suggestions, I believe. Tasty snacks dropped by killed enemy champions near Kog. Recovers HP, mana, and resets his Ult stack count. That would fit quite well with a more Ult-focused kit. Could probably drop the HP recovery, though.

As Darien Juranas mentioned below, several quite recent champions were done almost purely under the basis of being fun to play, rather than being fun to play against, and ended up with seriously mixed results. I also think that, despite Kog's overall lack of agency, he also kinda lacks nuanced counterplay as well, which is one of the reasons his balance state is so unstable. Ideally, a champion should be both fun to play and fun to play against (and fun to play with, though that tends to be a much rarer issue), and Kog'Maw isn't doing the best he can in either aspect.

I would argue most of the mentioned champs were just suffering from kits that did too many things. Yauso was an interesting attempt at making a Skirmisher but his free stats were set a bit too high, Kalista's objective control was and still is frankly unnecessary, and Zed gets free AD because why not? All of these champions are frustrating when the hard-counter your pick. But as said, that's simply the nature of hard-counters. I don't think hard-counters are bad. They help to make the pick pool more dynamic when they're executed well. The problem is that many of these hard-counter-y champs were given too much generalist power to go along with it. Like Kog, hard-counter champions should be niche picks rather than jacks of all trade. Because when they're a jack of all trades AND a hard counter, they simply serve to invalidate whole classes of champions whenever they're good.

As for counter-play on Kog, everything in his kit can already be dodged aside from the W onhit damage. However, I don't disagree that it could be more interesting. If we wanted to give it more counterplay, I would suggest making the OnHit damage ramp up rather than being at full power right from the gate. This would further emphasize Kog's weakness to disengage due to his immobility as well as his weakness to burst. It would make protecting him more importance since he would need a bit of time to ramp up his damage and start melting things.

I feel that would be distinctive enough from Jinx, who relies primarily on kills rather than time to really start doing her thing.

Rebonack4 votes

In all seriousness, it would be swell if Riot would be willing to open some dialog with us on Kog instead of doing this stuff unilaterally. That hasn't been working out well since... Season 1, basically.

Kog And Balls2 votes

{quoted}

Instead of monkeying with Kog's damage, focus on the parts of his kit that aren't damage if you guys want to buff him. His ability to grant vision. His ability to shred resistance. His ability to lay down persistent slowing fields. His totally unused Lore hook regarding eating stuff. Anything besides his damage. Because fiddling with Kog's damage output often just makes the situation worse. There's quite a history of that, in fact.

I couldn't have said it better myself Kog doesn't need his damage adjusted. Most Marksmen don't just bring damage to a team they also bring strong utility. Ashe and Sivir have strong initiations, Caitlyn and Jinx have powerful zone control with their traps, and Corki can split up team fights with his empowered Valkyrie. Void ooze is nice, but it doesn't deter divers, resistance shred is ok, but the duration is hot garbage, Living artillery used to have decent vision duration, but now its duration is halved. Overall Kog just doesn't have the strength to bring utility to his team and it could be fixed with low impact changes like duration buffs and an increase in the percentages on his skills.

Riot just really needs to start talking and listening to people who play Kog instead of people who have played against Kog. We honestly have good ideas for the champ. Your vision of a resistance shredding Kog who increases his teams overall damage I love it. When Wits end had its cost reduced and Kogs core became Wits and Hurricane I originally built the item to boost my own abilities damage, but over time I realized how beneficial it was for your team and it felt absolutely amazing to provide magic pen for your team a unique utility only Kog had access to.

His lore is another thing I've slowly become bitter about as more and more champs get VGUs, but Yorick was honestly my breaking point. Lore is the one advantage I think League has over other MOBAS. When you pick a hero in Dota you usually get a generic character with no real personality, but when you pick a champ in league they have really fleshed out back stories that are represented in their kits. When you use Yoricks abilities you really do get the impression that you are playing an immortal who channels the power of the shadow isles you can feel it and it feels great, but that quality of gameplay is really lost with Kog you don't go around devouring your enemies you mostly just spit and blow up.

To wrap things up I wish Riot would talk to us instead of talking at us when it comes to Kog. The other day in the Kog'maw win rates PLUMMET thread Riot Axes showed up and gave us 2 sentences worth of information that equated to "We are looking at Kog." And that was it nobodies questions got answered and there were plenty asked. I honestly think we deserve better than this after the roller coaster ride all Kog players have been on since 5.22.

Rebonack2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cucked Maw,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lBfe7QrR,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-10-05T17:26:50.948+0000)

I couldn't have said it better myself Kog doesn't need his damage adjusted. Most Marksmen don't just bring damage to a team they also bring strong utility. Ashe and Sivir have strong initiations, Caitlyn and Jinx have powerful zone control with their traps, and Corki can split up team fights with his empowered Valkyrie. Void ooze is nice, but it doesn't deter divers, resistance shred is ok, but the duration is hot garbage, Living artillery used to have decent vision duration, but now its duration is halved. Overall Kog just doesn't have the strength to bring utility to his team and it could be fixed with low impact changes like duration buffs and an increase in the percentages on his skills.

Or even a new Passive. A passive focused on shredding resist. A Passive focused on granting vision. A Passive that lays down slowing goop from his skills. And so on and so forth. Damage is great. But time and again it has been proven that champions who bring only damage to the table have very sensitive, knife-edge balance.

Riot just really needs to start talking and listening to people who play Kog instead of people who have played against Kog. We honestly have good ideas for the champ. Your vision of a resistance shredding Kog who increases his teams overall damage I love it. When Wits end had its cost reduced and Kogs core became Wits and Hurricane I originally built the item to boost my own abilities damage, but over time I realized how beneficial it was for your team and it felt absolutely amazing to provide magic pen for your team a unique utility only Kog had access to.

It did, didn't it? Back when Kog's Q shredded flat resist I had a Fizz player I would often team up with over in Dominionland. I would bait someone into trying to duel me and then Fizz comes running over and Qs them. Once I had Wit's and Abyssal, Fizz' Q would typically one-shot anything other than a hard target. It was absolutely hilarious and it felt great. Fizz was fishing and I was the bait. I feel like that's a perfect play-style for Kog. His kit already encourages cooperation with his team since he can't peel for himself OR initiate fights, focusing him on resist shred would emphasis that strength even further.

His lore is another thing I've slowly become bitter about as more and more champs get VGUs, but Yorick was honestly my breaking point. Lore is the one advantage I think League has over other MOBAS. When you pick a hero in Dota you usually get a generic character with no real personality, but when you pick a champ in league they have really fleshed out back stories that are represented in their kits. When you use Yoricks abilities you really do get the impression that you are playing an immortal who channels the power of the shadow isles you can feel it and it feels great, but that quality of gameplay is really lost with Kog you don't go around devouring your enemies you mostly just spit and blow up.

Something involving eating would make for a great new Ult, I feel. Given that Riot has made it pretty clear that they don't like Artillery Kog anymore his Ult is feeling increasingly irrelevant. The changes Riot has lined up will actually make AP Kog and ult-focused AD Kog even weaker than they already are since the ratios won't be getting boosted x3 anymore in exchange for a pittance of 50 extra damage early/mid.

To wrap things up I wish Riot would talk to us instead of talking at us when it comes to Kog. The other day in the Kog'maw win rates PLUMMET thread Riot Axes showed up and gave us 2 sentences worth of information that equated to "We are looking at Kog." And that was it nobodies questions got answered and there were plenty asked. I honestly think we deserve better than this after the roller coaster ride all Kog players have been on since 5.22.

Agree completely.

I've been tying to reach out and open some dialog on Kog for the past few weeks now, but Riot just isn't biting. Ever since the rework they've been taking a very standoffish 'we know best' sort of stance. And it lead directly the train wreck we're dealing with now. Kog players told Riot that this was exactly what would happen, but we were brushed off.

BloodyTompon1 votes

When league was first released they had no concept of counte-rplay and the game was very different than it is today.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

When league was first released they had no concept of counte-rplay and the game was very different than it is today.

Yes they did? Good positioning, map control, and yes, dodging skillshots, are all counterplay. Riot just didn't waste time with weird mini-games branded as 'counterplay'. There was more emphasis on counter-picking, though. If you counter-picked yourself then tough shit.

Kog's Ult hit like a truck originally, but he was still bad because he was totally out-classed as both an ADC and a Mage. Over the years Riot has crippled individual champion power and slowly heaped more power onto items (and more recently masteries). Once the other Mages were nerfed enough, old troll picks like AP Kog, AP Trist, and AP Yi started seeing play wielding the new, stronger items.

Harvey Rabbit1 votes

I think his current form is a clusterfuck. If they don't want to have a machine gun build, they should build him around AP Kog, which is interesting. If they don't do machine gun or AP Kog then they need to go back to the drawing board and give him some mobility or something. A pretty shitty turret that waddles around super slow and gets killed by a strong gust of wind is nothing anyone wants to play.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I think his current form is a clusterfuck. If they don't want to have a machine gun build, they should build him around AP Kog, which is interesting. If they don't do machine gun or AP Kog then they need to go back to the drawing board and give him some mobility or something. A pretty shitty turret that waddles around super slow and gets killed by a strong gust of wind is nothing anyone wants to play.

Basically.

If Riot doesn't want artillery Kog to be a thing, they should give him a totally new Ult because this execute nonsense just isn't cutting it. And if they're giving him a new Ult, then they may as well give him a new Passive and Q since both abilities feel really lack-luster. And if Riot is completely remaking Kog's Passive, Q, and Ult, then they may as well just give him a full VGU because his base model is nearly as hideous as Udyr.

Dengeden1 votes

Or, barring that, at least try to give Kog an identity beyond 'does all the damage' because that has resulted in knife-edge balance and head aches.

That's every marksman (played bot lane).

You can build a team around MF or Twitch, too, and they'll be better off for it, but they can function on their own, too.

As can Kog when his W is active for most of the early-mid game. The thing about Juggermaw comps is that a Kog on roids can chase you down more effectively than any ADC. This might change once Twitch rushes past pinks in the preseason but for now, that's a strength Kog has that no other does.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

That's every marksman (played bot lane).

Well, yeah. More or less. Ostensibly Kog's thing is 'deals way more sustained damage from long range'. But balancing him just around that damage has proven to be very difficult. He needs another lever or two in his kit.

As can Kog when his W is active for most of the early-mid game. The thing about Juggermaw comps is that a Kog on roids can chase you down more effectively than any ADC. This might change once Twitch rushes past pinks in the preseason but for now, that's a strength Kog has that no other does.

Kog's one big advantage in 'Protect the ____' comps is that his sustained damage is solid and his range is good. He doesn't have the same explosive Ult potential that Vayne and Twitch do, and his Go Button gameplay makes him a bit more reliable than Jinx when it comes to dealing damage. The problem is that they all have goodies Kog can only dream of. 's why I think Riot should focus on the non-damage parts of his kit if they want to buff him.

His auto-attack damage is fine. It's the rest of his kit that needs some serious work.

Dengeden1 votes

And that other lever is 2 random damage abilities that he can't spam will nilly and instead needs to save for specific situations.

Kog before S6 was a great champion. He was similar to Cait because he had a midgame powerdip but without being a farmdependent lane bully. He had to position himself and select his targets well because otherwise, he'd get kited thanks to his lack of mobility or zoned by some beefy tank that he couldn't kill in time.

JDB8eoX8x01 votes

I said it with Zyra, and I'll say it with Kog, too: I don't think passives that encourage dying are a good idea, ever. A passive shouldn't reward you with damage for killing yourself in a game where the optimal performance includes staying alive. This bothered me about Zyra and it still bothers me about Sion and Kog. They're better off with something that gives them active strength. Something that they can make use of to stay alive, not stay dead. I know this isn't why Kog sucks now, but it bothers me that he has a passive that won't ever be useful unless he intentionally/unintentionally kills himself. Zac and Anivia have similar passives with the difference that they're revive passives, something way better than a lousy "kill yourself and then try to kill someone else which will fail 90% of the time" minigame.

Robert Smith6 votes

Karthus : I disagree

Need Gold 4 Tent1 votes

Sion isn't exactly rewarded for being dead. For Sion, it's more of "Hey you, I'm still here! Don't you dare ignore me!" which fits his purpose as a tank. It is cohesive with the rest of his kit/role. He's still better off alive to CC the shit out of the enemy but it also means all is not lost if he's dead. It's still a pretty shitty passive though I have to say, in its current state.

Kog on the other hand, as an ADC, should not have a death passive. ADC are supposed to stay alive, that's the whole point of protect the Kog/Vayne comps. I would think, something that helps to keep him alive would fit better for him, though it might break him.

Only Play Darius1 votes

I don't see how free %Armor pen could have been terrible for Kog, it works great for Darius and he isn't even a carry

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lBfe7QrR,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-10-06T00:40:08.725+0000)

I don't see how free %Armor pen could have been terrible for Kog, it works great for Darius and he isn't even a carry

It wasn't terrible, but it didn't make a great deal of sense. Kog's damage was all magic and he got massive %Armor pen. Not the best fit. Getting the full value required him to be in dick-slapping range of most melee folks, too.

Doctor Dyment1 votes

The shredding of resistances would work well and fits into his theme. However, I think at the current moment with damage being as high as it is, it may be wise to hold off on creating a resistance shredder for now. But once damage balances out, I think he could definitely have some good appeal.

Rebonack1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Dyment,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lBfe7QrR,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-10-06T03:36:37.710+0000)

The shredding of resistances would work well and fits into his theme. However, I think at the current moment with damage being as high as it is, it may be wise to hold off on creating a resistance shredder for now. But once damage balances out, I think he could definitely have some good appeal.

Given that Riot is going to be working on the keystone masteries and assassins in the pre-season? That should lower the general damage level a bit.

And Resist Shred Kog would probably be most useful on teams that have lower damage. Low damage, high utility. But Kog would bump that low damage up to moderate (at least) damage. Basically, he could function as the glue for high utility teams that would otherwise fall apart because they just can't hit hard enough.

You wouldn't really need Kog on most super high damage teams simply because more damage would be overkill. A Marksmen that provides more direct utility would probably be better in that case. The only real exception would be if you're up against a VERY beefy enemy team. As you can probably tell, I feel like Kog should be a niche champ rather than another generalist.

ltmetal1 votes

THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU you said everything I wanted to while I couldn't find the words.

Vlasec1 votes

You kinda missed out the stats nerfed in 5.22 when he got the machine gun W. He lost 119 HP and 7.6 AD. Combined with his complete lack of mobility, this makes him even more succeptible to assassination. Adding back some stats (not necessarily damage) could be needed to make him work.

But you're right - going too far in giving him damage and then nerfing his utility yet again when they realize "oh sh.., he's killing everyone yet again", that's a bad direction. Getting some utility and then maybe a part of his dmg back is probably a better idea.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

You kinda missed out the stats nerfed in 5.22 when he got the machine gun W. He lost 119 HP and 7.6 AD. Combined with his complete lack of mobility, this makes him even more succeptible to assassination. Adding back some stats (not necessarily damage) could be needed to make him work.

But you're right - going too far in giving him damage and then nerfing his utility yet again when they realize "oh sh.., he's killing everyone yet again", that's a bad direction. Getting some utility and then maybe a part of his dmg back is probably a better idea.

It really is baffling, isn't it? The same scenario keeps repeating itself over and over again. Kog's damage gets an unneeded buff and then he has to get his utility (and often his damage along with it) nerfed shortly there after. How long is it going to take Riot to realize that Kog's damage shouldn't be touched and his utility needs to increase if they want to improve him?

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