@Meddler: Can Devourer work like "Conservation stacks"?

junglerboy16··23 votes·1,363 views

So Meddler, we all know that Devourer is a bit tricky to balance, just like Feral flare before it. When it's good, it crowds out pretty much everything else (like in patch 4.20 and 4.21), but when it's bad it's near worthless (after those nerfs, it stopped showing up in competitive almost overnight).

In light of this, I have a suggestion: Make devourer stacks work like Conservation stacks from the spirit stone items. This wasn't a good thing on those items, because it didn't support farm junglers and made it only appealing to gankers, but in this situation, that is a good thing, since too many devourer users simply AFK farm and leave their team to rot, which is an un-interactive and unhealthy game style. Hard farming is fine, but not when it is all that you do, and this change would alleviate that.

The numbers would work something like this: Devourer enchantment:

  • Price: unchanged.
  • 50% AS, 20 magic damage on-hit (doubled against minions+monsters)
  • Passive, Devourer: Every 15 seconds, gain a stack of "devourerer", up to 9 stacks. Killing a large monster consumes up to 3 stacks to increase the on-hit by 1 per stack consumed. Killing or assisting in killing a champion consumes up to 3 stacks to increase the on-hit by 2 per stack consumed.

This would help devourer out in many ways that improve its in game health:

  • I gives the player a choice between farming and ganking, rather than farm and gank when there are no camps left.
  • It allows player's to not need every single monster in their jungle to stack it, making allied poaching less harmful.
  • It limits the maximum amount of stacks that a champion can gain, meaning there is a hard limit to its snowball potential (although that is a pretty high limit with these numbers).
  • Its conservation style allows a jungler that is behind an opportunity to quickly gain stacks if not able to kill camps for an extended period (like when defending a siege).
  • It discourages, but does not entirely extinguish the option for hard core powerfarming, leaving options, but decreasing the prominence of the arguably less desirable option.
  • It reintroduces the objective controlling strength of Feral flare (the best part of that item) through the reduced base damage, but double effect against minions/monsters.

The only downside I see to this is that it makes counterjungling a devourer stacker slightly less effective (because they can save stacks for a different camp). In all though, it adds more balance levers and gives more ways to utilize the item in the manner that best suits the situation. This would make the item a whole lot easier to balance, while also making it a more unique and interactive experience for the jungler.

So Meddler, what do you think of giving Devourer a bit of help like this?

EDIT: Just to clarify, this change will not make a power clearing jungler stack any slower than they do currently. The difference between this and live is that it makes it so you are not required to power farm to get the most out of it, but are allowed more diversity in your play style. It simply means that playing as a ganker who loves AS like Xin Zhao or Aatrox will feel more natural with this item than before, but a hard farmer like Yi or Udyr will not be hindered in their stacking endeavors.

16 Comments

Erockandroll6 votes

I probably couldn't agree with all aspect of these changes. Particularly the double magic damage against monsters. Devourer doesn't really need more clearing power.

But over all it's a good avenue to explore. We want to preserve Devourer's transcendental Late game power. But it Shouldn't come from power Farming, considering that Riot is against AFK farming in general.

junglerboy163 votes

The double damage isn't really so much about general clear speed (because once you start getting it stacked, you melt camps fast enough to not even notice it) it is more so that I could reduce the base damage a little (from 25 to 20), because this conservation style stacking would in an maximized situation stack a bit faster than on live, and I thought taking some of its base damage would help curb that a bit, while allowing it to still become stronger late game. Giving the extra vs monsters would makes it good at killing epic monsters and clearing super minions late in the game, which was one of the healthier strengths of Feral flare, and seemed like a good idea to help out with the fact that it would have only half the base damage of what it had on release.

Sire Hippington3 votes

i really like that idea. The main problem with devourer is that you feel forced to powerjungle, and as soon as you drop behind as a team, both your laners and the enemie start to poach your jungle, so you won't get any stack once behind as a team. Haveing the stack-system would really help to contain the snowballing in both direction and allow devourer-junglers to contribute more to the game without sacreficeing to much stacks.

NorthernDruid2 votes

That was incredibly well thought out.

Great suggestion.

Rito please implement this ASAP!

Jungle Lux God2 votes

The way I see the jungle items is that the core jungle items fits with your playstyle (farming, ganking, invading, and counterjungling) and the jungle enchantments fits with your role on the team comp (physical damage on warrior, AP magic damage/AP support on magus, tanking damage with cinderhulk, and on hit magic damage with devourer). While it is clear that some enchantments are stronger/weaker than others (in particular magus and devourer are weaker than the other two), devourer is the only enchantment that forces a particular playstyle, in which you have to hard farm the jungle in order to get a lot out of it, actively forcing champions who want to get this item to powerfarm their jungle to get devourer stacks as opposed to other playstyles that don't get devourer stacks.

For all the reasons you stated above, I think this is a great route for devourer because it means you don't have to powerfarm the jungle to get a lot out of it.

junglerboy161 votes

That was my thought process exactly! Just because Devourer offers late game scaling through its passive doesn't mean it should be restricted to only those who can farm every camp at an accelerated rate. Only about half of all AS junglers who build/would like to build devourer are power farmers, the others (like a Fizz, Kayle, Xin Zhao, or Aatrox) like it because of kit synergy, but would rather spend their time ganking and getting kills.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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junglerboy162 votes

Well, this wouldn't force them to gank, since in an idealized situation where they power farm the camps, they are getting just as many stacks from the jungle before and after this change, if not more after. Right now, junglers who power clear can get 5 stacks per 70 seconds (because there are 5 basic camps that spawn regularly (70 seconds), and most junglers donate blue to mid lane, leaving an average of about 5.2-6 stacks per 70 seconds (more if you gank and get an assist or kill) if they get red regularly and counter jungle a bit (not counting Scuttler here because it has a really long respawn and is rarely part of a guaranteed clear). That is only in a situation where they are: not counter jungled, don't have camps poached by allies, and can clear camps at max speed for an indefinite time. My suggestion gives exactly 5 stacks per 75 seconds (more if you gank and get an assist or kill), but it does not require a 100% time efficient route that never does anything but stack, is not impeded as directly by a singular amp being taken, and allows for time later on when not farming stacks to still technically gain said stacks before clearing a camp for them.

The point isn't to hurt power farmers, but to make it so you aren't required to power farm to get the most out of the item.

LilxPaprika1 votes

I think giving it double dmg vs camps would do but make it do no more than 50 damage to camps. helps early game, and by late you'll already be strong enough to clearfast. or just make it do fixed amount of damage to camps like 30+1 per character level.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

the main reason you would pick Devourer is to hard farm and get as much damage from the item as possible. It's an upgrade that you don't pick if you have ganking constantly as your mindset. Increasing the damage per stack (or after a set amount of stacks) would be better than simply giving it a dumb ammo system to something that is design to be the hard farming jungle item. It's up to the laners to not be over aggressive and actually let the devourer jungle farm to a respectable spot.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

The main reason that Devourer is not good compared to Feral Flare is the complete removal of the health on-hit. Feral Flare was originally a god tier item that gave you 100 health on hit with no regard for armor, and that was op. So they made it 10 with no scaling, which basically made up for the original Wriggle's Lantern not having lifesteal anymore. But now, with the on-hit magic damage nerfed at base and harder to farm up, and jungle XP lower and the on-heal removed, it's like on-hit junglers have next to nothing (especially compared to Warrior and Cinderhulk junglers).

Honestly, it's probably better to just let on-hit builds die. On-hit is uninteractive because there is no way to build against it or prevent it (you can't stop right clicks and AS reduction items are not allowed to be good because they hurt ADCs too much).

Pretty much every jungler who would use Devourer can use a different jungle item pretty well. Warwick is fine with Cinderhulk or Magus, Xin Zhao is good with Warrior, Irelia can use Cinderhulk just fine and Volibear also enjoys being tanky. Shyvana...eh. I think people have basically already switched to Cinderhulk Shyvana, so no big deal there.

ZephyrDrake4 votes

{quoted}

The main reason that Devourer is not good compared to Feral Flare is the complete removal of the health on-hit. Feral Flare was originally a god tier item that gave you 100 health on hit with no regard for armor, and that was op. So they made it 10 with no scaling, which basically made up for the original Wriggle's Lantern not having lifesteal anymore. But now, with the on-hit magic damage nerfed at base and harder to farm up, and jungle XP lower and the on-heal removed, it's like on-hit junglers have next to nothing (especially compared to Warrior and Cinderhulk junglers).

Honestly, it's probably better to just let on-hit builds die. On-hit is uninteractive because there is no way to build against it or prevent it (you can't stop right clicks and AS reduction items are not allowed to be good because they hurt ADCs too much).

Pretty much every jungler who would use Devourer can use a different jungle item pretty well. Warwick is fine with Cinderhulk or Magus, Xin Zhao is good with Warrior, Irelia can use Cinderhulk just fine and Volibear also enjoys being tanky. Shyvana...eh. I think people have basically already switched to Cinderhulk Shyvana, so no big deal there.

umm what? you can't do anything against on-hit? how about peeling? how about slows? if they cannot get to you to actually auto attack you then they deal no damage to you. On-hit is also very small magic damage half the time, very few on-hit damage is physical so you can just build a little of MR and there you go just build what you would build normally after that

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

My issue with that is that when they have a stack, they'll want to gank for the double value. Which could actually discourage clearing the jungle, and encourage doing dumb shit for a kill (rather than just forcing the enemy out and then taking a free objective).

junglerboy161 votes

That is a very real issue with this idea, but that could be adjusted by any number of things, like the number of stacks that can be consumed on kill/assist, the bonus gained from champion stack vs monster stacks (like 2 damage per stack on kill or only 1, maybe something in between), and several other factors.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

Hey, man! Could you link the old discussion we had? I think it would be very beneficial for newcomers to the discussion to see it.

junglerboy161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fluffysaurus Rex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l9f8kdcq,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-04-13T22:51:51.237+0000)

Hey, man! Could you link the old discussion we had? I think it would be very beneficial for newcomers to the discussion to see it.

Sure thing! Here it is: A Serious Discussion on Devourer

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