The problem with squishy supports and why they need to be addressed again.

Tik115··5 votes·671 views

Back in the Pre-season leading up to Season 4 the focus was on the supports, back then Supports were basically ward mules, get a support item (normally Shyruilias which is now the Talisman) Mobi boots and buy nothing but greens and pinks since there was no ward limit and light up the entire map, When the preseason changes went through Riot claimed that it would mean that supports would have more gold to spend and thus decided to pull back on the damage and add scaling on the utility, and the squishy supports hurt a little bit from it but were still functional.

Then they nerfed the squishy supports AP items

Then they buffed the tanky support items

then they added items that help tanky supports while releasing incredibly underwhelming and incredibly niche squishy support items

Then they buffed tank supports

and suddenly the squishy supports vanished and champions which weren't meant to be in that role but could do it because hey we have something supports do but we do it better appeared(Annie Trundle Kennen ).

This is why Riot needs to go back not to the full support role but just those that aren't all about tanking up a storm and address these problems due to several glaring issues....and I'll try not to mention to Sona rework as one of those issues but I can't promise

-Defensive items are more efficient then damage items This is a long standing problem not just to support but all roles but its relevant in this case, for the same cost you will get more out of a defensive item statwise then you will from an offensive item.

Since we're on about the supports lets compare the FotM and Frost queens, one for tanks one for squishy poke champions

Both cost the same, 2.2k and give similar stats in their respective fields, 50 AP 10%CDR and 50% mana regen on the frost queen and 500 HP, 100% Health regen and 10% CDR on the FOTM, but then you look at the gold efficacy, completely disregarding the passive FotM has a gold efficiency of 91%, or 2k where as the frost queen is 80% efficient or 1.7K, and again this doesn't even include their passives, with defensive stats being so much more efficient for the cost its better to just pick a tanky support to amplify these stats

  • Frost queens line is still weak

Coin line gives a 3 second 40% MS with a 40 second CD FotM gives a 10% of your max HP shield which explodes dealing 100% of the targets AD and 30% of their AP regardless on if the shield was intact or not at the end with a 60 second CD Frost queen gives a low radius AOE slow with a 60 second CD

So going by passives FotM allows a carry to get around a 200-300 health shield WHICH will deal at least 300 damage after 4 seconds around the target if its on a carry the coin gives both a defensive and offensive movespeed boost which will pretty much be up all the time a fight is about to start the spelltheif has a strong slow but its AOE range is low (its just slightly bigger then Tahms AA range) and in order to get close enough you'd need ether a flash (which if that's the case why not just play Annie for slightly less cast range bigger AOE which can STUN?) or another item to get close enough to cast it.

  • Supports still don't get enough gold to buy damage items

Goes hand in hand with defensive items being more gold efficient, Supports still have gold issue, Defensive items are more gold efficient so it all points to pick tank build tank

  • Relic line gives a bigger advantage

The relic shield has 2 charges, each charge gives the support the kill gold (along with the lane partner) Lets say that the support focuses on using charges on Melee minions except when a seige minion is there.

1:30 - Uses on Melee minion, 20 gold 2:30 Uses on Seige minion, 40 gold, 1 charge returned 3:00 - Uses on Melee minion, 20 gold 4:00 - 1 charge returned Uses on Seige minion 41 gold 5:00 - 1 charge returned 5:30 - uses on Seige minion, 41 gold 6:00 1 charge returned 7:00 1 charge returned, uses on Seige minion 42 gold 7:30 - Uses on Melee minion 20 gold 8:00 1 charge returned 8:30 Uses on Seige minion 42 gold 9:00 1 Charge returned 10:00 1 charge returned use on Seige minion 43 gold

So in 10 mins, ignoring any harass, ignoring the passive gold gen a relic support will gain a total of 269 gold to both themselves AND the carry meaning they contributed 538 gold to their team

Now with the spell thief you get 5 gp every time you hit a champion to a max of 15 gold every 30 seconds, starting at 1:30 at the 10 min mark a spellthief will make 255 gold, thats 14 gold less if we just go by gold support and a whole 283 gold behind if we also include the gold going to the carry

Finally the coin, any nearby minions grant you 3 gold,

theres 6 minions in a wave except every 90 seconds when there are 7 minions 85 * 3 = 252 Then adding the seige minion thats 5 * 3 = 15 252 + 15 = 267 gold by 10 mins

So the Relic line NOT ONLY gives the most gold BUT gives the carry more gold then the enemy carry why? well those charge useages mean that the carry (or in the later game whoever is close to the proc) is GARUENTEED the gold where as coin and spelltheif it doesn't mean "oh hey my carry got that CS" which means the Relic shield helps not only having your carry out CS the enemy carry (by way of the procs gaurenteeing gold) but helps prop up the carry with you risking the high value CS AND healing them, so hey why not play a tank since its a tank item?

  • Squishy supports utility scaling is too small

if we look at the supports statewise the tanks have better scaling especially since, again, defensive items more efficient

Leona's W gives 20-60 AR and MR scales with 20% bonus AR and MR Braums W gives 15 - 25 AR and MR Scales with 10-16% bonus MR and AR, with his Q damage scaling with 2.5% of his max health

On the other side, Sonas W passive lowers damage by 20% + 2% per 100 AP, her E aura gives 10-14% MS +3.5% AP and the slow is 40% + 4% per 100 AP Nami passive gives 60 +20Ap of her AP (Doubled if using her ult) and her E gives a 10-35% slow + 5% per 100 AP

Now lets gives these champions an item, the tanks with AR and MR and the supports with AP and lets assume the skill their stat item has is maxed out (Level 9) so lets give the tanks a ZZ'rot and the supports a Seraphs

Leonas W will give her 72 AR and MR (110AR 100 MR during the Ws duration) Braums W gives him 37 AR and MR (94 AR 77 MR during Ws duration)

With Seraphs at level 9 Sona and Nami will have 128 AP Namis passive gives her 84 - 168 ms, her E gives her a 40% slow Sonas W passive lowers damage 22% her E aura gives her a 17.5% MS buff and a 44% slow on the passive (if she maxes E first instead)

So Leona gains 110% effective health, Braum gains 94% effective health where as Nami gives a 2 second MS buff equal to mobis (roughly) or a slow equivalent to exhaust (A spell supports get)or a Randuins ( and item which tanks like to buy) and Sona gains half an exhaust at the cost of 220-300 (so around 5 casts in total before Sona runs OOM) and a CD of 3-30 seconds depending on spell casts and her E gives a MS buff equal to a Yommus active and basically the same thing I said for Namis slow for her slow

  • Tanky supports can do squishys utility but better

Staying on the Braum/Leo Sona/Nami comparison Braums Q slows for 70%, that's more then Nami and Sonas slow combined with his ults slow matching (and later rank beating) their slow and lasts longer Leo ult slows for 80% for the same length of time

Leo has 3 stuns (well 2 stuns and a snare) lasting for a total of 3 seconds Braum has a conditional stun and a knock up for a grand total of 2.25 - 3.25 seconds

Sona has 1 stun (we'll ignore the part where she pretty much HAS to flash to use it) lasting 1.5 seconds Nami has 1 stun and 1 knock-up for a total of around 1.75 seconds

so at max rank Leo/braum have enough lock-up to match Sona and nami combined, twice over nearly

  • Tank supports are too safe blah blah defensive items more efficient but then we have to look at what the supports have to get away

Leona W to give her a massive defensive steroid, can stun a target and walk away Braum can jump to a minion or champion or just casually knock up the enemy Thresh can box, hook a minion, lantern an ally in to turn the fight around, flay AND is ranged to begin with

Meanwhile Sona has a weak MS boost or their ult, buuuttt would blow up if a blitz just looked at her Janna has 2 knock backs and a shield Nami has 2 delayed knock ups

with a huge abundance of hard CC and in the case of the newer tank supports a means to escape the only squishy support even remotely safe is Janna and its one of the reasons why shes pretty much the only squishy support still being picked (and even then shes being phased out for Tahm at this point, another tank support)

So then what can be done to fix it? there's a couple of ideas which can be mixed and matched

  1. Nerf relic line the Relic line has a much more efficient passive (late game a 300 Health shield PLUS a 300 damage AOE explosion) not to mention combined with the money going to the carry as well almost doubles the gold generation of the coin and spelltheif line, the nerfs would ether be a reduction of gold from the passive (or hell make it like the Kalista passive where the gold goes to the nearest champ and not the support) or a reduction of the shield (EG 10% of targets HP as opposed to the supports HP)

  2. Buff squishy support utility baring a Janna building Mejais its be rare for a squishy support to get 100 Ap in a close game, and even then the scaling on a lot of them is terrible (Sona's E Aura, just WHAT!?) obviously there's no blanket buff on utility and would have to be a champ by champ basis to prevent some supports turning into pre-rework soraka

  3. have the scaling apply to squishy supports hard CC As mentioned Leona OR Braums hard CC beats both Nami and Sonas hard CC combined, but what if their hard CC duration increased based on AP? well then a carry gets caught for longer or a tank is left out of the fight for longer which can turn fights around,

  4. Nerf Tank supports Obvious one but still relevant, they are INCREDIBLY efficient with little gold, since they are packed with strong steroids and hard CC, even poke supports can't do anything due to their steroids being so strong and the supports poke damage being so pathetic early game (outside of Sona but again, stare at her she goes boom)

  5. Revert the pre-season changes AKA the nuclear option, I know a lot of supports won't be happy becoming ward mules again (I mean I enjoyed battling the enemy support for vision control instead of flat killing) but it would give squishy supports their damage back, their utility would be strong at the BASE level instead of a rare and near impossible fantasy

  6. Buff squishy supports Self explanatory

  7. Make Tank items less gold efficient We've all heard this one so I don't think I need to explain this

  8. Rework the squishy supports Nuclear option 2 (though as a S3 Sona main i would find any rework to Sona better then the one they gave her (Damnit I said I wouldn't mention the Sona rework)) more akin to a Ryze rework then a Sion rework, slightly alter the skills but keep their overall function the same.

  9. Add more support based items ZZ'rot, Steraks, Dead mans, Titanic Hydra We have pretty much had NOTHING but tank items, the last AP item we had was Ludans and the last Suport AP item we had was the Zekes rework which works more for TANKS then for supports so the other support AP item is Ardent (which in itself is incredibly underwhelming and only works in "Juggamaw" comps, more AP items focused on support (so low cost high utility AP items) are needed to match the constant addition of tank items.

the state of squishy supports right now is in a terrible spot, baring a juggermaw comp there is no point in getting a squishy support (and even then you'd only one Janna for the comp) and the fact that during not only most of Season 4 when they phased out (Hell Thresh was practically Leagues version of the HMS dreadnaught, second he came out all squishy supports baring Janna become irelivent) but being completly ignored this season means that supports have become the "Dude are you trolling?" champs, can they still work in soloQ? low Elo defenetly, high comps against certain comps maybe but the fact of the matter is squishy supports need help, badly

14 Comments

Erockandroll4 votes

The problem I see is A) Tank supports are too self reliant. A support is still a support. But in the Early game, You basically can't poke down a Tank support. and B) You can't increase the poke of poke supports to out compensate, because you would do oppressive amounts of damage against the ADC. The only way you would work around that is with %HP damage, which isn't likely going to happen on a support.

But it's probably not healthy to have CC duration that scale with AP. Keep in mind that the more AP scaling you give to a champion, the more likely they will show up mid lane. (see lulu) And over all, you really can't expect Supports to scale that much AP. (or defenses if their a tank support)

And part of that reason is that their won't be any consensus on Support level gold. (Because lane gold differs greatly depending on skill and CS.) So they won't likely increase the GP10 of their items.

Over all, Squishy poke supports do need help, But they should be less reliant on scaling. Making any support reliant on scaling is just bad design. And this tends to get poke supports shafted since they don't have as much CC as tanks. Though if you want to increase healing supports. I would nerf the Health gen on relic shield. It's literally stealing the one niche that healing supports had.

3tyson1 votes

Unless your zilean or soraka or stuf id usualy feel tanky sups r better than squeeshy ones

bcus most suports r sort of about utility being tanky means u can waste their time and get more utility off

Narvuntien1 votes

Tl;DR Basically too long.

But the lack of squishy supports at worlds does indicate there is a problem. Janna was the only one I saw played.

The pro players like proactive play making supports rather than the disengage supports, Tahm is basically the best disengange in the game right now.

I think a buff to the AP item range might be the best option of those listed. Those items just aren't being utiliised as much as they should be.

Josheheh1 votes

morgana was played. heavily.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Tl;DR Basically too long.

But the lack of squishy supports at worlds does indicate there is a problem. Janna was the only one I saw played.

The pro players like proactive play making supports rather than the disengage supports, Tahm is basically the best disengange in the game right now.

I think a buff to the AP item range might be the best option of those listed. Those items just aren't being utiliised as much as they should be.

Janna has actually hardly been picked. Pros prefer to counter tank supports with other tanks (and Morgana) than with Janna now.

pripustas1 votes

Didn't read the whole thing. Stopped when I saw that you think, that Relic shield gives your team more gold than the coin/spelltiefs. By using relic shield you last hit a minion, while your carry would last hit it otherwise. Coin actually gives you more sustain and gold overall.

Tik1151 votes

Ok noticed my coin math mistake but it still makes the relic give more

Coin would give you 267, which yes is only 2 from the relic BUT those charges on the relic GAURENTEE whoever is near the support will also net the gold where as the coin is just "A minion died near me", not to mention the coin gives YOU sustain but then if you play a tank support with Relic you can sustain almost as well (40HP per proc) but sustain your carry as well.

Clown Apocalypse1 votes

I'd say because how you set your runes and masteries up matters. When I take a tank support I pretty much run 30 defense masteries with armor and mr runes mr and %hp for heavy ap teams. Which means I start with 475 gold and get theitem 3302. But I also have no gpt runes, no gpt masteries, so income is limited to scavenging minions and making plays. When I play AP supports I put about 15 points into utility getting me the 515 starting gold and the item 3303 . I also take gpt yellows,cd blues, magic pen reds, and ap quints. I always get further along in my AP builds than my tank builds. I also rarely upgrade the support item for my ap supports because the gpt is the same no matter how many times I level it. I just keep the basic one I start with until my other slots are full. Likewise with the targons....I almost never build it because I can put way better items in that slot. Not saying it isn't useful but having item 3401 item 2049 item 3117 at roughly 20 minutes into the game doesn't give you much tanking potential if your team doesn't have one in the jungle or top. If anyone on the other team is even remotely fed, teamfights are going to suck for you. I'd rather have item 3110 item 3117 item 2049 for roughly the same price...just a couple hundred gold more. I personally prefer to tank from the jungle or top lane. So I can actually have real items. That being said, in laning phase...playing a tank support is far more forgiving for you and your laning partner than an ap support. Alistair can eat a blitzcrank hook and walk away. Sona won't have the same luck.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

personally i feel tank supports aren't "tanky" as they need to be late game since it seems so easy to just kill braum after he ults late game you can hardly make use of the gold income passive relic has and the shield feels weak late game since it hardly blocks a thing i personally wish riot gave item 3401 the power of item 3911 or at least put item 3911 into the game as a buyable item with nerfs to it of course now i agree with you on your position that mage supports need help like Soraka Sona Nami

Tik1151 votes

Honestly the 2 mage supports I think are fineish are Janna (but Tahm is stealing her job) and soraka (who I feel is so overtuned its the only reason why she's in that state)

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

soraka is ok i guess i main her she really isn't over tuned since she has no cc outside of a silence and a root plus a small slow its hard to get the root off even when i build item 3116 her Q is only good for healing herself since it deal almost no damage i personally like how most if not almost all her power is placed into her healing since that's her thing.she is the goddess of healing. janna i feel is ok but i would have liked to see her passive work on herself again personally.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

Interesting post. Need to add a few pointers, though:

  • Remember, utility scalings is one of the greatest reasons that people end up taking Lulu to a solo lane, instead of botlane because as a support she can't even get the gold/scalings she needs. Heck, even Sona is already a good enough candidate to be an actual midlaner. So I don't think buffing that would be a good idea. It's either we get rid of it completely (since supports CAN'T even afford AP), or make it scale NOT off from AP, but from something that maybe only supports can build.
  • Don't forget that because of meta shifts and the ability for tank supports to build legit tank, they came on the rise. Botlane has become a lane where all you do is spoonfeed ADC kills instead of working together and just win the damn lane, which also brings to the fact that even mages (cough Annie) are better off picked than such poke supports.
  • If squishy supports and their utilities in general were to be buffed, careful consideration must be taken, because it's not impossible for pros to take them into a solo lane, therefore creating an "antifun" experience that would lead to further gutting. We don't want another Lulu mid/top v2.0, where it makes her botlane capabilities completely outclassed and "useless".
  • It's either we nerf coin, or buff spellthief. Never both. This is done just so that poke supports have a reason to take spellthief's. If spellthief is buffed, then relic shield doesn't need changes. If coin is nerfed, then relic shield should be nerfed as well to keep it "equal" in terms of value.
  • Yes, poke support itemization NEEDS work, especially when the defensive options are nerfed during the juggernaut patch. Twin Shadows, Ardent Censer, Zeke's, or even Morello's (yes, it's a good tool to reduce healing especially when there's an AD mid who obviously can't get it) are the only items that scales that poke supports can afford to build.
  • Rework may not be necessary, but small ones might be if we don't want to enforce meta shifts.
Tik1151 votes

Interesting pointers, I would argue however that before the support shuffle we did see supports go mid anyway, normally Janna mids but supports COULD operate in both a solo lane and a support role without that "anit-fun" element.

Athenes Lulu1 votes

Alistar jungle and Taric top were gutted because they were "anitfun".

Lulu solo is not any better to go against, yet she never gets touched and have her supporting abilities nerfed instead.

It is possible to have a support be able to solo and not be "antifun", but is just really hard to keep it right.

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