Tanks killing you in a 1v1 is a vacuum scenario and implies your team wasn't around to help you
Frankly, I think some tanks deserve to do more than they do already (
), but they are never dealing the damage necessary to carry the game like a real adc can, because that's not their job
This is a meta shift, and not a bad one. Tanks becoming viable means many other champions that used to be niche are now beastly
This is my favorite one
Kouga5 votesIt's not about tanks dealing damage
It's about sending a message.
This MOBA deserves a better class of Champions.
Laughing Fish2 votes
Okay.
BluePolarizer3 votesfunny thing is, Cinderhulk isn't just for tanks. J4 or Vi can build standard damage items first then finish cinderhulk, which is even scarier since now they'll have late game scaling while still being early game beasts.
Crett2 votesfunny thing is, Cinderhulk isn't just for tanks. J4 or Vi can build standard damage items first then finish cinderhulk, which is even scarier since now they'll have late game scaling while still being early game beasts.
Riot left balance levers on Cinderhulk. If this becomes dominant, they will lower the base health on cinderhulk and increase the % scaling.
ZephyrDrake1 votesRiot left balance levers on Cinderhulk. If this becomes dominant, they will lower the base health on cinderhulk and increase the % scaling.
yeah because 350 HP is such a great lever, hell i would take lower base HP and more % scaling, it just means that any other HP item i get is better making it not even matter in the long run. If anything i see the opposite happen and lower the % scaling while increasing the base HP
Crett1 votesyeah because 350 HP is such a great lever, hell i would take lower base HP and more % scaling, it just means that any other HP item i get is better making it not even matter in the long run. If anything i see the opposite happen and lower the % scaling while increasing the base HP
you would technically get more HP out of a righteous glory (or frozen mallet or even a warmog's) with those builds cinderhulk does create a decent baseline of HP with a tank item but bruisers aren't getting too crazy as far as i've seen with them
MrPerson102 votesAgreed.
The tanks coming into power is a huge shift, but a nice one that's really nice to see - especially as a shift away from the early game pressuring power of J4, Vi, Pantheon and friends.
The Blue Rooster2 votesI never stopped playing tanks, but I did notice everyone stopped playing Trundle. It was nice, he doesn't have to come back, he can stay gone, I am okay with that.
TL;DR:
Tank meta so gay , OMG Sejuani 110-0 faster than Zed. Pls nerf all tanks!
Crett1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Blue Rooster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kn7bkdYs,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-23T08:47:27.873+0000)
I never stopped playing tanks, but I did notice everyone stopped playing Trundle. It was nice, he doesn't have to come back, he can stay gone, I am okay with that.
TL;DR:
Tank meta so gay , OMG Sejuani 110-0 faster than Zed. Pls nerf all tanks!
Your suffering sustains Trundle
junglerboy161 votesToo bad, Trundle thrives off of the mere presence of a tank on the other team (and if there are no tanks he builds damage and 1v1s towers).
"I'm gonna crush your dreams... They're in your skull, right?"
Raja Chachki1 votesyes, very gay. all homosexuals play Sejuani and 100-0 people faster than Zed. Exactly what gay means, couldn't have put it better.
LankPants1 votesI'd say tanks becoming viable should do great things for versatility in the meta overall. The rise in tanks should cause a decent drop-off in assassins as unlike many bruisers most tanks will sit back and peel for a carry, at least partially mitigating the impact of an assassin.
One of the things about assassins is that they don't create versatility, they are the single biggest bar on champ versatility as they create a bar of minimum survivability saying 'If you can't survive a Zed diving on you your champ isn't viable'.
If assassins do start to drop of in viability it would be fair to assume riskier low mobility/low survivability picks (Like Ashe and Anivia) would begin to increase at least somewhat in popularity. One good effect of this is that low mobility ADCs tend to do better damage and shred through tanks better, with the right balance you can create a sort of Paper/Scissors/Rock effect (abet with far more pieces) that prevents any class from becoming too dominent.
junglerboy161 votesSadly, Ashe will never truly be a good pick because she doesn't deal enough damage to capitalize on the tank meta that she needs to survive. Additionally her ult is countered by 
and 
, so a pro team will punish her hard when she tries to engage on them.
though could be on the verge of making a huge comeback because of his tank busting, lane bullying, poke, and disengage combination. He loves having a beefy team defending him, and has the built in tools to cut through the enemy tanks as well.
LankPants1 votesSadly, Ashe will never truly be a good pick because she doesn't deal enough damage
People have always said this about Ashe right up to the point where people started picking her. They were saying it early S2, Ashe was a top ADC pick mid S2, they were saying it mid S3, C9 made Ashe popular mid-late S3.
Also as for Ashe being a low damage ADC http://champion.gg/champion/Ashe
This shows Ashe dealing the 6th most damage of any champ. Why? Because her DPS is actually high end for an ADC. She has an Incredible base AS which means every % of AS she buys is more valuable than 1% of AS on a champ like Corki who has lower attack speed.
She also fairs well against tanks because the majority of tanks are relatively kitable. Once a Naut throws his hook or a Mumu bandage tosses they struggle to catch Ashe. As long as she's quick enough to dodge their gap closer she can often kite tanks all the way across the map.
junglerboy162 votesYou're actually taking that COMPLETELY out of context. Ashe as an ADC deals fine damage for her kit. However, the meta that she requires in order to survive (like the current meta of multiple super tanks bodyguarding the one or two main carries) is also the meta that counters her. She thrives when she can focus on utility and can just kill towers and start fights while other members of her team deal the burst. She has damage, but an Ashe will take about twice as long to kill a pure tank as a Vayne or a Kog'maw, and even Varus (The most comparable ADC in the game) can out tank-bust her. She deals very high long-term DPS, and has generally high damage in a straight fight, however, when a tank like Maokai drops his ult that reduces all but true damage, or stacks armor vs her, she can't really do to much but try and kite away (where Vayne and Kog can DPS through the armor, MR, HP, and reduction with ease). The ability to kite away from a tank means she is relatively safe in the current meta, but she still has a hard time actually killing the enemy tanks unless already ahead (which isn't out of the question, just not a reliable factor).
This isn't a question of Ashe being viable, she is just significantly outclassed when there are champions in the game that can do what she needs to do better. Kalista can out kite her. Vayne and Kog both significantly out damage her, Lucian and Graves out burst her, and Varus even has better tank busting capabilities. In a vacuum, Ashe would be thriving in the current meta, however, this is not a vacuum and there are just many better ADCs meaning that she really doesn't do enough of the right types of damage She has DPS, and while it is higher than average, it is outclassed by any champion that can unload their damage faster or more efficiently, which is quite a list.
LankPants1 votesYou keep saying Varus is better at busting tanks than Ashe. Are you sure about that?
I'd assume you think he's better because of his W, since claiming his other abilities help him to bust tanks make very little sense. But how much damage does your W actually deal to tanks? At first 15% of their HP as magic damage might seem very high but when you stop to look at numbers you see that tanks reduce this to a very small sum of damage.
VS a tank with 4000 HP, 308 Armour and 200 MR (I think we can agree these are fair numbers) how much damage does your W deal? It's got a base of 600 magic damage after 3 autos, but the tank you're hitting has MR to reduce your damage. You only end up hitting for around 200 damage. With a standard ADC build your W adds around 678 raw magic damage every 2 seconds, or 112 magic DPS assuming you proc it every time it has 3 stacks.
Do you know how ADCs not named Vayne melt tanks? With physical damage. You're AAs (still Varus) bring in 875 raw DPS, mitigated to 289 damage by armour (after pen). You're Q (uncharged as charging reduces DPS from AAs) and E add a combined 98 DPS mitigated to 32 by Armour (I'm counting these as DPS and not burst as you can often use them a couple of times on beefy targets, plus if used to try to burst you lose most of your W damage). Your ult adds 350 instant magic damage, mitigated to 116 magic damage. I'm including SS in the build but only giving one proc because it's very hard to factor multiple, It adds an average of 168 magic damage, mitigated to 55 magic damage.
Varus's damage equation against the selected target is D=171+433T meaning through this model it would take Varus about 9 Seconds to kill a 4000 HP target assuming he procs his W every 2 seconds, which is rarely possible. He can trade some DPS for burst but it would cause him to take longer to kill the tank.
Ashe on the other hand has a higher AS meaning she gets a higher physical DPS. Ashe deals 1002 raw DPS mitigated to 334 damage. Her W adds 106 DPS, mitigated to 35 damage. Her first auto is a 100% crit, meaning her SS burst is 250 damage, mitigated to 83 damage. Her ult deals 600 damage, mitigated to 200.
Ashe's damage equation against the selected target is D=283+334T meaning it will take Ashe around 11 seconds to kill a tank. This does not factor Ashe's 100% crit damage however.
A 2 second difference here really isn't that big. Compared to champs who can't shred tanks like Ez or champs who specialise at it like Kog, Ashe and Varus have very similar abilities to melt through tanks.
There's also the fact that Ashe deals the damage more safely that Varus, generally earns more gold and has more items and brings far greater utility to a team than Varus can. I don't even think that a standard build is best for Varus, I'd generally consider Legolas build better and that build can't kill a tank to save its life.
junglerboy161 votesWell, I can't argue with your math. Well played good sir.
LankPants2 votesYou really could if you wanted to. What I said is only really valid in a 1v1 where you're not being attacked. There are way too many factors that can swing in one way or another to truly calc this out.
Ally with an Abyssal walks by them? That swings the results in Varus's favour. Ally hits them with a Cleaver? That swings them in Ashe's favour. Got a blue buff or a Janna shield? I have no idea who that would benefit more.
The point I was trying to get across is the neither of them are really better at tank shredding, who's better really comes down to what you need.
Ashe is a little safer with far better utility and overall higher damage to squishies.
Varus has considerably better poke and a healing debuff which can be invaluable against someone like Swain. He's also a little better on AD heavy teams since he has better magic damage.
junglerboy161 votesYes, I know, I was simply conceding your point because I agree.
BakedLotion1 votesYou're actually taking that COMPLETELY out of context. Ashe as an ADC deals fine damage for her kit. However, the meta that she requires in order to survive (like the current meta of multiple super tanks bodyguarding the one or two main carries) is also the meta that counters her. She thrives when she can focus on utility and can just kill towers and start fights while other members of her team deal the burst. She has damage, but an Ashe will take about twice as long to kill a pure tank as a Vayne or a Kog'maw, and even Varus (The most comparable ADC in the game) can out tank-bust her. She deals very high long-term DPS, and has generally high damage in a straight fight, however, when a tank like Maokai drops his ult that reduces all but true damage, or stacks armor vs her, she can't really do to much but try and kite away (where Vayne and Kog can DPS through the armor, MR, HP, and reduction with ease). The ability to kite away from a tank means she is relatively safe in the current meta, but she still has a hard time actually killing the enemy tanks unless already ahead (which isn't out of the question, just not a reliable factor).
This isn't a question of Ashe being viable, she is just significantly outclassed when there are champions in the game that can do what she needs to do better. Kalista can out kite her. Vayne and Kog both significantly out damage her, Lucian and Graves out burst her, and Varus even has better tank busting capabilities. In a vacuum, Ashe would be thriving in the current meta, however, this is not a vacuum and there are just many better ADCs meaning that she really doesn't do enough of the right types of damage She has DPS, and while it is higher than average, it is outclassed by any champion that can unload their damage faster or more efficiently, which is quite a list.
How exactly does she have dps? She has one AD scaling ability with low base dmg. lol. No steroids. All of her damage is from items. In fact, Ashe has the lowest dps of all AD carries since shes the only one with no steroids or damaging abilities/skills.
junglerboy161 votesShe has really high base AS, AD, and a crit based passive, all while generally building pure damage. She also is one of the few ADCs that gets gold fast enough to buy a Zephyr or second PD/Shiv in a normal length game. I don't think she is a good ADC really, but she does in fact have high DPS, especially when considering that her W has about a 3 second cooldown and boosts her DPS by about 15%.
SmknWdl1 votesLeague of assassins is ending... league of tanks has arisen
warpenguin5551 voteswell their has to be a reason for people to attack the tank or they wouldnt be doing their job