Giving up when a match is lost; Who's the bad guy?

CPU Lyrica·Mar 22, 2018·1 votes·265 views

People loove pointing out bad guys. That veigar who's having a bad day against a zed, 0/5? inter. the jungle who's struggling cuz they didnt get a leash? Troll.

So, here's a riddle for people. a match is pretty much over, the enemy team have snowballed to the point of insta-win. Who's the bad guy? the 4 laners, or the jungler who refuses to give up?

On one side, we have the laners, who arent giving their all to a lost match.

on the other, we have a Jungler who is effectively wasting their 'allies' time.

Obviously not entierly serious, as there could be other unknown personal variables.. but whatever. thats not important rn.

So, who's the bad guy then? cuz its an interesting topic and i want something to read when im done running ARAM till i get my daily win.

16 Comments

AzadetheMar 22, 20184 votes

The 4 laners are the bad guys. If a game becomes an instawin, it's because it's a 1v5 game, because the 4 people who are raging and giving up have removed their agency completely from the game. You may think you're justified because it's likely you'll lose, but your giving up is particularly WHY you lose in many cases.

A 0/5 Veigar vs a Zed isn't the end of the world, since he can actually stall out a game and get stack heavy and come back. I can't count the number of 0/5 Veigar I have encountered who turned around into a 18/10, because once I left bot and helped the entire team, I carried him back on Nami and he became self sustaining after a few takedowns.

A behind jungler should learn.... depending on the jungler, they should be stealth split pushing, or getting into an assist role in team fights, where the goal is to poke, but then to get out.

There is no end to a game until a team completely gives up on itself.

I have won 6/42 games, soley because we had a Gangplank on my team who insisted people not give up. We turned that game around from a 6/42 into a 46/51 with an objective based win. If GP's team had given up, began feeding to expedite the loss, we'd be you. We would have lost.

You may kick and scream when a team is doing poorly, but a 50-60 minute possible win is worth FAR more than giving up at 15-20 minutes to force a loss.

CPU LyricaMar 22, 20181 votes

Always good to hear a good Comeback story.

and yea, i agree with the "lets try to stall till late" strategy most of the time, as i generally play late-carry supports. lux, bard(?) and.. is leona late? well her and sona too.

AzadetheMar 22, 20182 votes

Meh. I jungle Leona. Far more agency and ability to do what she does well there: choosing the right ganks and times to cc, and compelling lane wins.

In Bot, Leona gets hard stuck based on the ability of her adc, and the opposing team's damage/heals/cc. She truly hates a Brand lane for example.

Sona is late game absolutely, due to her ult's passive.

Lux is all game. Bard is all game, if played correctly.

CPU LyricaMar 22, 20181 votes

Ive heard that leona's able to jungle, but haven't tried it myself. how does it work? itemization/skill order/etc.

AzadetheMar 22, 20182 votes

The goal's to be able to get around the map. There's multiple ways to play it, but some of the hardest carries are generally:

item 1413 item 3117 item 3100 item 3102 item 3001 item 3742 is a pretty good rush domination build, because your goal is to be on perma gank, and it has a ton of move speed, along with pretty good cdr and camp clear.

You can also go AD/attack speed based around a item 3078 , but it's not as fast moving, and Leona's skills don't scale to an AD build, so while it's okay at clearing camps, it's slightly less reliable. Still good though.

You can also go item 1414 , but you better not have anyone who can burst mid-HP levels if you do on the other team. Doing so could get you a 15-18 minute win, but it has its late game drawbacks.

Runes:

Aftershock is meta. If you go Grasp, it'll be underused and unreliable. She has one of the easiest Aftershock procs. Bone Armor Second Wind Unflinching or Overgrowth (generally go Unflinching)

I secondary Domination Taste of Blood Ravenous Hunter

Ravenous stacks pretty fast on a good Leona, and will pretty much overheal her after 11-13 minutes on solo drakes with Cinderhulk. Takes about as long as any non skirmish jungler, and good at counterstealing drakes, because of her easy to land stuns.

Taste I just get because no other option in domination really scales well on a Leona (her AP ratios are too low to be useful in most regards, and I'm on constant gank, generally tanky, and don't need to ward as much as a vulnerable jungler.

Skills: Generally start Q or W, and level 2 the other. The Q Stun is used when W is down, so that you always either have reduced damage from W being on, or have the jungle mobs stunned. You level W and E, because the extra armor/resist is useful, as is E's CDR reduction on leveling (If you can survive without leveling W, rush E). Q isn't worth leveling, because it gains nothing but single target damage on leveling.

You'll find she generally pulls in less damage than most junglers, but she dominates in giving CC, chases, and shutting down peeling targets. Generally, you want to fight with an ally, since they will do extra damage each time you skill. Or, mop up someone with low HP. I wouldn't try to solo high scalers like Jax after a point.

Sp33d Zer0Mar 22, 20183 votes

The 4 laners. Giving up is listed directly under negative attitude. The one player who is trying to keep things afloat, regardless of how badly they are playing, is showing better sportsmanship than his 4 allies. If those 4 players are not okay with "wasting time" they shouldn't be queueing up. If they lost a 40 minute game versus a 20 minute that dragged on for 20 minutes, they still "wasted" the same amount of time. During all of that time there is possibility for something to happen; someone dc's, someone plays overly cocky and gets caught repeatedly, etc.

CPU LyricaMar 22, 20181 votes

Decent read, thx for the opinion. always fun to see what people say when they're given the tools to play judge/jury/executioner.

ViciousSummonerMar 22, 20183 votes

The best analogy:

It's like trying to save a dying animal without knowing what to do or what the cause is. You sit there and stare at it as it slowly withers away. You can flip it over a few times, but ultimately it dies because you have no clue what the actual fuck to do.

CPU LyricaMar 22, 20181 votes

yep.. sounds 'bout right.

Zane ZephyrMar 22, 20182 votes

I'm never going to get upset for someone trying to win as long as they are doing it in a positive manner and not being toxic about the state of the game even if it is just one person doing it.

It's a bit of a different story if people are complaining about the game and generally but are refusing to ff, but as long as people are actively trying to just play the game and not intentionally trolling or throwing the game then they will never be the bad guy.

Think of it like a sports game (I play dek hockey and this is something I see occasionally but its quite uncommon) where one team is getting blown out but there's still one guy on the losing team running up and down the dek at full speed the entire time like it's still a close game and generally giving it his everything even if it's for a loss

If the other four players are intentionally throwing the game and are being toxic then yes they are at fault, but if they are still at least attempting to just play the game and going along with it even if it's a very grim game then there's not really anyone at fault and if the team just communicates or tries to at least strategize with any willing players then it will definitely increase your chances of coming back.

CPU LyricaMar 22, 20181 votes

Yea~ i can see what you mean. a game plan also helps.. i saw a post a couple weeks back about how "people who say 'we can win this!' should also give strategy/plan etc" cuz.. well a solid plan can actually help rally a team more. i find myself barking orders at disorderly teams alot when i feel we need the coordination in order to win.

Zane ZephyrMar 22, 20181 votes

I do the same thing. I generally start shot calling my matches when I get a sense of how things are going and what we can or can't do.

Even if they don't work out, it still helps you for the next time you're in that spot

130xMar 22, 20181 votes

It really depends on some factors.

What is the spread and what is the current in game time, also does one person on their team have all the kills or is it evenly spread?
What is the avg ranked class of your team vs their team?
Does anyone have the ability to quickly judge player skill and accurately tell you if it is in fact a win or loss? As in, does this jg know he can SOLID SOLO CARRY if the feeding stops right at this point.
Was the jg late to the party? As in, was he not in position for his leash?

Not knowing any of that information. I would say the laners that failed to leash are at fault. They should be outright suspended for 48 hours. Why?

The game is 5v5. By not leashing jg you delayed your fith and crucial member by at least 5 min, assuming he doesnt start getting counter jg'ed. If counter jg'ed he would be killed due to the level discrepency. So by not leashing they have just created a HUGE DISADVANTAGE TO THIS TEAM GAME. Why even join a game if you refuse to play? They trolled everyone in this game who wasn't responsible for the leash. The "feeding" from mid would have most likely been mitigated with jg in proper rotation.

CPU LyricaMar 22, 20181 votes

kinda used it as an example.. but it does remind me of a match that happened recently.

Top lane, darius, doesn't even connect, everyone's fooling around cuz "eh remake np". kindred has no leash cuz she went blue, (me and adc are on botside)

Darius recconects about 2 minutes in, goes to lane, dies bc underleveled, doesnt really contribute all game. Meanwhile, the kindred who didnt have a leash tries, but in the end fails cuz the enemy jungler had a more stable team.

VvVVvVMar 22, 20181 votes

Why does there have to be a "bad guy."

Im in silver and literally every game is winnable. At least at the point you are giving for your example. if there is 1 person keeping the surrender vote from passing then you have to be talking about pre 20 min mark or else 4 votes is all you need after that.

So pre 20 min mark every game in low elo is still winnable. Simply because a lot of players dont know how to close games out. They literally start running around aimlessly or just start running after and trying to fight anyone they see appear on the map and stop farming and focusing objectives. They literally just try to fight....die...spawn....and go fight again.

There are times I vote yes to surrender but most of the time i vote no and im pretty sure at least half of those times we have came back and won.

So I guess you can say the elo you are in also factors into whether or not you surrender. I dont think there are as many throws in high elo of games that are pretty much over with that there is in low elo.

CPU LyricaMar 22, 20181 votes

Good read, let me focus on the 'bad guy' bit.

See, it comes from a bit of psychology called the 'skapegoat effect' (i think)

basically, when people are stressed/tilted/upset, they find it easier to pinpoint the source of the stress. ie; the 'bad guy'.

People pile on this 'unwilling skapegoat' because it makes them feel better about their bad situation. and yes, this prob feels bad from the skapegoats' view. but the blamers don't always care. they want stress relief.

Also, yea ik what you mean about ~~idiots~~ cough, cough, players being unable to close out matches. had a game like that before when their mid got stuupidly ahead, but kept being caught out when he went to invade/gank, got cc locked and killed.