Anybody tired of people complaining about Lethality when they don't know how armor is calculated?

Mr Carbon·Nov 15, 2016·6 votes·690 views

People are making all these comments and assumptions about lethality commenting about how OP certain champions are or aren't when most of them don't even understand the math behind how armor, pentetration, and reduction interact ("interacted").

Lethality has smoothed out the ridiculous power curve armor penetration and reduction formed, and It also helps in the sometimes extremely complicated calculations involved with armor.

I'm glad to see these assassins have legitimate utility in the game again, without being in the unhealthy state they were before.

Hope you guys have a great night <3 http://leaguetales.com/

[slayer-jinx-catface]

20 Comments

deadlychuckNov 16, 20162 votes

I know how armor is calculated, and the fact that you have linear damage reduction up against physical damage which has 3 multipliers (Crit, Atk spd, % armor pen)( and 4 if you include lifesteal) against one multiplier (HP) when it comes to defense is complete bullshit.

Lord DesertNov 16, 20161 votes

Trust me i had several discussions about "armorpen is now useless" etc., even some challenger guy didnt do the math and just bragged about Lethality beeing complete shit...

That felt like trying to teach a kid to NOT jump in a vulcano, but he just dont want to listen, just because his friend said it was fine.... I have lost faith in humanity more times then i can count and want to admit, but If you just slap them over and over and over with facts and over and over, always crushing their "arguments" to dust and then they finally realize how wrong they were, this feeling is the only thing that holds me back to not jump out of the window or facepalm with my monitor every time i see a stupid comment/assumtion... That is really hard! really, really hard to stay calm sometimes...

Oh and if you do a super long post with tons of math and good argumants to IMPROVE LoL, its get 10 views and 2 comments: "TL;DR to long" and "fell asleep after one 10th of your massiv wall of text"

Mr CarbonNov 16, 20161 votes

Lol True, I'm actually starting a "League of Legends Math Class" series on my website, should be really fun since I was a math major in college.

Lord DesertNov 16, 20161 votes

Computer sience bachelor here xD (basicly Math, but only focused on 0s & 1s instead of the greek alphabet :D )

Mr CarbonNov 16, 20161 votes

Oh that's cool, My first two years were in comp sci until I moved to math. I got through advanced c++ and networking before I switched. Still interesting stuff, I just figured computer science was something I could educate myself with.

Lord DesertNov 16, 20162 votes

yeah you can learn most languages and basic networking by yourself, but the advanced stuff is rather interesting and its hard to get decent materials for them! But its nice to know that there is atleast 1 other person playing LoL who can think for themselfs and can revalue stuff. I lost the hope to find somebody who was capable of doing something "crazy" like this already xD

Mr CarbonNov 16, 20161 votes

<3 we were meant to be*[zombie-nunu-hearts]* Taric

Lord DesertNov 16, 20161 votes

Ok first of, just to be safe: No homo xD But sadly the big water puddle called atlantic ocean is between us*[zombie-nunu-tears]*

Mr CarbonNov 16, 20161 votes

Lol, Totes no homo Taric

That puddle was formed from my tears

Lord DesertNov 16, 20161 votes

wouldnt that be counterproductiv if you formed/made to puddle bigger o.O? xDDDD

Mr CarbonNov 16, 20161 votes

Oh god... I must drink my salty tears!

PermabannedGarenNov 16, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Desert,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kXW142Tx,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-11-16T00:51:36.814+0000)

Trust me i had several discussions about "armorpen is now useless" etc., even some challenger guy didnt do the math and just bragged about Lethality beeing complete shit...

That felt like trying to teach a kid to NOT jump in a vulcano, but he just dont want to listen, just because his friend said it was fine.... I have lost faith in humanity more times then i can count and want to admit, but If you just slap them over and over and over with facts and over and over, always crushing their "arguments" to dust and then they finally realize how wrong they were, this feeling is the only thing that holds me back to not jump out of the window or facepalm with my monitor every time i see a stupid comment/assumtion... That is really hard! really, really hard to stay calm sometimes...

Oh and if you do a super long post with tons of math and good argumants to IMPROVE LoL, its get 10 views and 2 comments: "TL;DR to long" and "fell asleep after one 10th of your massiv wall of text"

How is lethality not bad when it doesn't scale better than armour pen and is worse until the enemy is level 18?

Mr CarbonNov 16, 20161 votes

Have you read the changes to the items and runes that carry lethality? Or know what a break point is? We get more of it, and a relatively tame break point for most items except a few.

Lord DesertNov 16, 20162 votes

The key is the amount of lethatlity that you get and the importance of high amounts of armor pen. Lethatlity is always weaker till about level 9! if you get EoN or Duskblade as your first item (level 9 is a rather possible time for you to complete that too) you have the same amount of armorpen then if you had the old version (new 15 lethality = old 10 armor pen at level 9).

i will make it short, if you want the exact numbers just ask!:

your max armorpen is 73 instead of 61! (this can give you a possible 10% increase to your dmg! This is the reason why assasins can delete squishys even better!)(its not the max amount of arpen, but the most common max)
lethatlity starts at 40% (+3,33% per level). Important numbers: Level 1: ~50% lethality is armor pen, level 9: ~75% is ArPen, 18: 100% is ArPen.
i does scale better then old ArPen if you buy EoN or DuskBlade! only youmuus is nerf a little.
the loss of early armor pen is neglegtable, because you have to much armor at level 1. ( we are talking about ~4-5 less armor pen at level 1!!) and even then the "increase" from the old arpen doesnt matter because we are only level 1.

TL;DR: Lethatlity is not as bad early as you think, it gets even or already better after 1 item and can futher increase your dmg output vs squihsy late game(~10% in best case).

Mr CarbonNov 16, 20161 votes

Yeah, we are totes on the same page.

ValyrianBladeNov 16, 20161 votes

Lethality is a LOT weaker than armor pen was though - at least for some champions.

MAYBE it's okay on something like Zed. The problem may be solved for him where if he falls behind he's still relevant with his standard build. For some reason it was okay for him to force every mage to build Zhonya's regardless of how well they played but it's not reasonable to expect him to not go an armor-pen build if he falls behind...

Anyways, the point I want to make is that armor pen was something that you COULD choose to invest in if you got an early lead. It was something you explicitly took because it offered early power before your opponent has resistances. It was something champions with an oppressive laning phase could use to start snowballing before they simply got outscaled.

Now, there's no such option. You can't invest in an early power spike with Lethality because by definition it does less at lower levels. It even scales at your opponent's level, so it's not like getting way ahead makes it any better. You're almost definitely better off rushing flat AD than you are rushing Lethality now in these circumstances.

It's definitely a net-nerf to champions who had armor pen as an optional build for when they were doing well, but could opt in to alternative builds if they weren't.

The top 6 win-rate champions now are all tanks. 5 of the 6 have weak laning phases (exception being Sion). I think that proves my point. If it doesn't - look how Jarvan 4 fell from 1st to 26th on just this one patch. His optimal runes were 9 armor pen marks which let him snowball an early lead when coupled with the armor shred from his Q and black cleaver. Now lethality denies that snowball combination, even if the mastery changes probably benefited him. Quinn fell from 2nd to 8th behind the same premise - she can't snowball (as well) with early armor pen off an early lead any more.

EcchiOtakuTMNov 16, 20161 votes

So basically healthier because if ahead your skill should press it, when behind you can do something and fixes late game. 3 things assassins had issues with.

ValyrianBladeNov 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So basically healthier because if ahead your skill should press it, when behind you can do something and fixes late game. 3 things assassins had issues with.

Depends on your view. I would argue that it cost 1100 gold to get 10 flat armor pen from a serrated dirk (alongside 700g worth of AD and a small passive). For 300g you could get 15 armor. That means you'd spend 100g less (400g for the upgrade from 20AD to get the armor pen versus 300g for cloth armor) and increase your net armor by 5. Seems like a pretty good deal - but no one wanted to build an early cloth armor if they died to an AD laner early. It's not the game's fault, it's the players. I've seen a challenger Zed-only mid player get solo first blood on a Challenger Riven-only player (box box) and buy Cloth armor on his first back. Problem is that even up to low diamond most players wouldn't do that (if you're wondering, Riven got carried and won despite the Zed amassing a huge lead - box box also complained most of the stream how the cloth armor screwed him so much).

Building correctly is, or at least was, as much a skill as the mechanics and other in-game decisions are, or at least were.

EschetonNov 16, 20161 votes

How does lethality work on towers? They don't have levels right?

LankPantsNov 16, 20161 votes

I know exactly how armour is calculated, it's 100/(100+armour). I also know that 50=33%DR, 100=50%DR, 200=67%DR, 300=75%DR, 400=80%DR, just of the top of my head which makes it very easy for me to estimate DRs.