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So the State of Top Lane isn't peachy, here's a potential solution for itemization

oOBestEveNAOo··13 votes·2,824 views

TLDR: Melee top laners have been struggling for a few seasons now and part of the problem is income starvation due to typical laning patterns and ineffective itemization that is often better abused by ranged AD carries. Let's uniquely buff some classic "bruiser" items to throw them a bone.

So, when we think of classic top laners in League of Legends what often comes to mind for many of us are champions like: Jax Irelia Tryndamere Nasus Renekton Riven . Maybe a MonkeyKing Darius or even Kled for newer players. One thing each of these champs has in common over the last 2 seasons or so is the fact that they are struggling to remain competitively viable. In some cases they simply aren't viable at all competitively! The prevelance and strength of tank top laners or ranged champions invading the role dramatically reduces the pool of effective top lane picks and this is also in the lane most heavily impacted by the nature of counterpicking effectively auto winning the match up.

What this means for the game is that a large portion of the champion roster is simply unable to be played, gameplay becomes stale and stagnant, and many players become (rightly) fed up with it and abandon the role, champion, or even the game altogether.

What it means for competitive play is that games are boring to watch and lane phase is typically decided by jungler interaction, limiting the strategic diversity of matches.

Well what's the problem and why are these types of picks performing so poorly? Mostly the issue is that standard laning patterns against more meta picks involve losing trades that lead to income starvation for a class of champions that is, historically, designed around being as item dependent as ADCs. A bruiser type of champion that isn't capable of winning a duel because of poor itemization effectiveness essentially doesn't have a role to perform in a team composition as this champion won't be able to teamfight effectively in straight up team fights, can't seige or counter siege easily, and can't even perform the function for which it was designed effectively as a split pusher because it can't win the inevitable 1v1! As a side effect of this calamity split pushing in general is an inefficient and ineffective strategy which further limits strategic diversity.

This leads us to the question of how to fix the problem and make a larger portion of the champion roster viable picks that are actually capable of performing their function when played properly.

One way we could do it (without diving into runes, which already are enough of a headache in general in preseason as most preseason sweeping changes tend to be) would be to address the core items commonly thought of as "bruiser items" that tend to be overshadowed by marksmen abusing them better. Things like: item 3078 item 3071 item 3022 item 3053 item 3091 item 3748 . Fortunately Tiamat and Gage already proved why range is a huge inherent advantage and have been relegated to melee only in certain respects. But this wasn't enough. So how can we get some of these other items (and maybe a new item or two) to better empower melee bruiser playstyles without once again breaking ranged champions and crowding out melee picks?

Let's start with item 3078 , the quintessential bruiser item. This item has all the things bruisers want. It gives them the ability to stick to targets when they jump them, it gives some durability, and it improves damage output. Thing is ranged champs can just make better use of it. So let's change the item and add a unique passive to help melee champs alone. Let's say it keeps its current stats value and price tag aside from the cool down reduction which we will reduce to 10% base (a minor indirect nerf targeted at the marksman caster types that tend to take the item). Then we can add a unique passive (let's call it... "arena master" for the moment) that applies only for melee champs: this is a passive that stacks with kills, capping out at 10 stacks with assists being one stack and kills being 2 with each stack adding 10% of the items stat values to the item and reaching 10 stacks doubles the raw stat value of the item, and dying reduces your stack total by half rounded up of your total stacks. This change would leave the item about half as effective on ranged champs at full blast (mirroring other range/melee 1/2 bonus values) but encourage the melee user to play in the bruiser style to stack up to become stronger by splitting and dueling and not dying while also giving them a way in mid game to gain back some of the income disadvantage suffered in lane phase by BOTH splitting for gold and exp as well as stacks to make up for the early deficit. Since this change could affect jungler patterns as well now and jungle gold/exp has been buffed we need to take care that this change doesn't relegate bruisers solely to jungle or that current jungle champs abuse better or are passed up in favor of new tri force abusers. If this occurs consider adding to the passive that smite as a summoner spell counts the champion as "ranged" rather than melee to reduce the values more in line with current tri force.

Ok, one item down, let's take a break for a moment to just consider this one before I get to others and I'll do this thread in steps so that we can consider these items individually first and then together while also allowing me some more freedom in writing such a long and complex thread.

Day 2: Black Cleaver

Ok, lets get down to business to defeat the hun--- erhm, I mean and talk about item 3071, bruiser big ticket item number 2. This is another item that is regularly better abused on marksman or ranged champs (and this guy: Gnar ) than just about any bruiser type of champ you might care to name. It's a lot safer to stack that passive from range than from "in yo face mutha flowa!". The item was intended to give bruisers a way to defeat tanks in top lane matchups and provide utility and increased damage potential for the ADC in teamfights. So let's go ahead and reinforce this concept by making the passive half as effective for ranged champs and make them take twice as long to stack it. With the new buffs the item will likely receive to increase its stack percentage and rate its liable to just be MORE abusable on these ranged champs than the champs its intended for, again pushing a class of champions out of their role. So let's ALSO add to this buff a slight nerf for the ranged champs to keep things better in line with a healthy game state and mirror the other ranged/melee bonus numbers and the new concept for tri force. Is this enough of a change to help bruisers out? Probably, especially in addition to some of the other items we're going to be talking about, so this change seems like a pretty easy one since Riot is already tweaking the item some.

But...

Let's tack on something else that stacks to also help encourage the bruiser playstyle like we did with tri force. A melee only passive that grants 20 hp per stack up to 10 stacks with kills granting 2 and assists granting 1 where half rounded up are lost upon death. Now we've got both the mainstay bruiser items that they like to rush granting them the ability to come back from some of that early deficit in games by doing typical bruiser things in the early mid and mid game. One of the few things left to consider here with Black Cleaver is going to be it's cost and perhaps its build path. So lets change the recipe to Jaurims Fist and Phage and its total cost to 3150 gold to better reflect its value and new passive without otherwise changing the stats. This should feel a lot better for bruisers in extended lane phases or late lane phases because a Kindlegem doesn't really offer much in terms of trading power but a Jaurim's Fist with that Phage sure can help with both last hitting and potential trades.

Day 3: Solarian Arms (Temp name)

OK, so its a typical game and you're playing a bruiser type champ and have farmed up your completed Tri Force or Cleaver and picked up a item 3077 to go with it for the trade power and wave clear as the game starts to transition out of lane phase. You're feeling a bit better about things since it feels like you can actually put at least a bit of hurt on some opposing champion now but you feel like you need something to help the team out in these skirmishes AND you feel like you need a little more durability to survive them and make use of the advantage time for some extra farming or tower taking. You think about Righteous Glory, but the opposing team is still up a tower and pressuring with priority while mostly being the ones to dictate the engagements so far so you don't know how much that really solves your issue and begin to lament the other choices available to you.

Sound any kind of familiar to any one? I bet I'm not the only one whos been in that kind of a situation on occasion.

How about an item that could offer a solution for this, be a less expensive bruiser item to match some of the typical less expensive second and third purchases of other champs that feel really impactful, and give our bruiser brethren another way to express their skill in game with a useful active like all the cool ones mages and supports and marksmen and assassins and tanks get to have? The Tiamat active sure is useful, but it doesn't feel as IMPACTFUL as something like Ghostblade or Quicksilver Sash or Locket.

Enter Solarian Arms. (Think of an icon with a shield and gladius)

Yesterday I previewed the active effect for it:

Active - Allied Champions in aura range (600 units) take 3% reduced damage for the next 5 seconds and regenerate 15% of damage taken during this duration over 5 seconds. If less than 4 allied champions are in aura range then the wielder of Solarian Arms gains 3% more damage reduction per champion missing up to a max of 9%.

So we'll go ahead and complete the item today since we know this is an active that can help the team out in skirmishes and could be used in isolated 1v1 all ins to win an outplay advantage. We kind of want this item to give us some more durability even though we want to keep beefing up our damage out put to perform our role so lets take some of the previous version of Locket and build a new item for around 2600 gold from item 3105 , item 3067 , and item 1036. The final stats of the item can be 30 Armor and Magic Resist, 300 HP, 15 AD, and 10% Cooldown Reduction along with its unique active. I feel like this gives bruisers (and potentially even some tanks) an option that helps them and the team while simultaneously opening up more diverse options for support players since an item that performs a similar locket function but doesn't stack with it can be used by another teammate allowing supports to build a different item (or perhaps pick entirely different champions and strategies). As a last aside, I have this odd feeling about this particular item and Trundle when we think of overall balance, but I can't put my finger on why and suppose it's probably because Trundle is the champ that comes most to mind when considering something that is both a Top and a Support role champion.

Edits to come! What kind of thoughts do folks have so far? I'm interested in hearing feedback and ideas from those who care to participate.

Edit 1: Todays item will be Black Cleaver some time this evening. Edit 2: Solarian Arms is our Day 3 item, something new and interesting. Edit 3: I don't always play jayce: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/GTTBpLdl-i-dontt-always-play-jayce-but-when-i-do

92 Comments

SooFr0sty4 votes

As someone who rarely plays top, mostly jungle, I though that the ranged vs melee was most annoying.

Why not make a starting item that is melee only and you take reduced ranged damage. Could also count towards pantheon q since he seems to be an issue.

oOBestEveNAOo2 votes

{quoted}

As someone who rarely plays top, mostly jungle, I though that the ranged vs melee was most annoying.

I agree, it can be pretty annoying to play against regularly and certainly can diminish my enjoyment in game.

Why not make a starting item that is melee only and you take reduced ranged damage. Could also count towards pantheon q since he seems to be an issue.

We have tried various iterations of effects with things like doran's shield and ultimately none seem to work out all that well. I personally feel like corrupting potion was one of the better additions as a starting item because it really helped me stave off some of that harass early in lane and offered me some trading power at the same time. However other bruisers like pantheon taking it and just harassing a champ out of lane while making better use of corrupting pot proved why that ultimately wasn't the perfect solution. Perhaps a more "dark seal" type of item for bruisers would be good here? Something that offers a base stat and encourages use of refil pot but not an opening purchase of corrupting pot?

LordGeovanni2 votes

FioraVayne

oOBestEveNAOo2 votes

{quoted}

FioraVayne

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here

OmarmohyThinker2 votes

what i call "The Outplay lane"

LordGeovanni2 votes

that the damage reduction item that is being proposed is gonna do nothing to their main source of damage. and firoa doesnt need more help to be unbeatable in lane except by darius who i can say the same thing about him but with fiora

OmarmohyThinker2 votes

1.Let the ranged champ push 2.The lane should be really close to your tower 3.Don't auto attack until the minion has super low health 4.keep at it until the jungler comes 5.kill ranged champ 6.All in the next time the ranged champ comes

oOBestEveNAOo4 votes

{quoted}

1.Let the ranged champ push 2.The lane should be really close to your tower 3.Don't auto attack until the minion has super low health 4.keep at it until the jungler comes 5.kill ranged champ 6.All in the next time the ranged champ comes

That is the current predicament of top lane. It is typically solely decided by jungler interaction and not by skill.

That doesn't make it much of an:

{quoted}

what i call "The Outplay lane"

It rather makes it the opposite.

OmarmohyThinker1 votes

well....you gotta remember that THIS game is a team game,You're not playing alone

Hammermancer1 votes

{quoted}

1.Let the ranged champ push 2.The lane should be really close to your tower 3.Don't auto attack until the minion has super low health 4.keep at it until the jungler comes 5.kill ranged champ 6.All in the next time the ranged champ comes

Ahh you're one of the guys that gives me issues, don't spread these things >.>

800k Jayce

OmarmohyThinker1 votes

Too many people push without thinking and then start crying at the jg for not ganking when the whole lane is pushed right next to my tower and expects the jg to tower dive me while i'm full health , I mean it is boring asf to just farm and wait for your jg but it wins games

oOBestEveNAOo4 votes

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2361/2334267387_c4ac463ee8.jpg

"Hello Rito. Am baby Renekton. Plz help me grow up big n strong!!"

LordGeovanni4 votes

Id Play balls to the walls gold for Defensive items as effective as adc and mage damage items and for damage items for fighters as effective as adcs damage items. I just want some 3300 -3500 gold efficient stats item for defense id pay up to 4500 gold for it

oOBestEveNAOo2 votes

{quoted}

Id Play balls to the walls gold for Defensive items as effective as adc and mage damage items and for damage items for fighters as effective as adcs damage items. I just want some 3300 -3500 gold efficient stats item for defense id pay up to 4500 gold for it

I have a new item that will cover that for ya!

But I won't be getting to it until day 3 or 4 of the post as I'm doing an item per day. You'll just have to hang around and check in for that when I've got the time to get to it. In depth posts like these are very time consuming and complicated to do, even though I kind of wish I was able to post it all at once.

LordGeovanni2 votes

For some reason riot says they wont make pure stats items because thats boring but item 3001 item 3194 item 3153 item 3147 item 1416 item 1401 item 1402 item 1400 item 3031 item 3042 item 3036 item 3074 item 3089 item 3027 item 3085 item 3087 item 3071 item 3748 item 3091 are all pure stats items they have stats and they have passives that do the exact same thing stats do besides the blood thirster which has an active but being real that active is forgotten to be used 90% of the time and isnt needed. ive tried making stat items but i have nothing that we could add to the game as a passive or active wise that doesnt already exist at least not without it being broken or reducing true damage which people repeatedly tell me isnt supposed to be reduced but i cant help but keep thinking that maybe it wouldnt need an item for it if they balanced true damage as low flat numbers for their reliablity and % max hp true damage shouldnt exist maybe if the value is .5% with a maximum application of that amount per 3 seconds. % current hp true damage can be argued for but that doesnt exist .... yet

HalcyonDweller3 votes

I'd be interested in toning down Crit damage to make it so Crit users have a tradeoff between choosing to build crit for damage vs tankier targets or build something else like lethality for damage vs squishier targets.

Right now they get to build crit and do everything better, which seems a little unbalanced to me.

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

{quoted}

I'd be interested in toning down Crit damage to make it so Crit users have a tradeoff between choosing to build crit for damage vs tankier targets or build something else like lethality for damage vs squishier targets.

Right now they get to build crit and do everything better, which seems a little unbalanced to me.

I actually feel the opposite way at the present time. I think crit, given the shortness of games, is a rather useless stat when one could just opt into lethality for the superior early game when games are this short.

Crit is supposed to be this kind of scaling stat that is important in late game stages to offset the high durability tanks and their importance in team fights. I'd rather see a shift in focus for crit users to be more crit oriented and gradually move the games back to longer average duration so that more strategic diversity can occur and make games less stale and unenjoyable.

I would, however, agree completely with your statement that the standard crit users get to build it as an option in ADDITION to using/doing everything else better than any other class of champion already.

The significant buffs to ranged champs over the last 2 seasons in an indirect manner is particularly unhealthy for the game. Range is such a huge inherent advantage early in lane phase that it NEEDS to be offset by weaker early games. Continuing to buff the early games of marksmen and other ranged champs in general can lead to things like the binary state of top lane where you either get jungler help and win lane or don't and lose lane. And this isn't even to mention the state of bot lane when a jungler decides to go top lane as losing bot lane snowball advantage can often end a game then and there. So not only is it warping top lane. It's warping jungle patterns and bot lane patterns as well. Giving the class of champions that is warping early games so badly a dominant late game ALSO is a huge problem.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

{quoted}

I actually feel the opposite way at the present time. I think crit, given the shortness of games, is a rather useless stat when one could just opt into lethality for the superior early game when games are this short.

Really? Hmm maybe I've been out of touch. I haven't played a whole lot of the Marksman Role since preseason came out (there's a marksman+support duo in my usual group).

Crit is supposed to be this kind of scaling stat that is important in late game stages to offset the high durability tanks and their importance in team fights.

I was under the impression that Crit did far more than that in its current state. being able to right click for near-assassin-levels of damage seems a little unfair considering how Riot even reworked assassins to make their damage more delayed and less reliable.

I'd rather see a shift in focus for crit users to be more crit oriented and gradually move the games back to longer average duration so that more strategic diversity can occur and make games less stale and unenjoyable.

I too would like to see longer games again.

I would, however, agree completely with your statement that the standard crit users get to build it as an option in ADDITION to using/doing everything else better than any other class of champion already.

The significant buffs to ranged champs over the last 2 seasons in an indirect manner is particularly unhealthy for the game. Range is such a huge inherent advantage early in lane phase that it NEEDS to be offset by weaker early games. Continuing to buff the early games of marksmen and other ranged champs in general can lead to things like the binary state of top lane where you either get jungler help and win lane or don't and lose lane. And this isn't even to mention the state of bot lane when a jungler decides to go top lane as losing bot lane snowball advantage can often end a game then and there. So not only is it warping top lane. It's warping jungle patterns and bot lane patterns as well. Giving the class of champions that is warping early games so badly a dominant late game ALSO is a huge problem.

I won't speak to this since I don't have a lot of thought or analysis into those topics or balance relationships yet, but what you have said seems reasonable and from what I can tell, your head is in the right place. You have my support here!

oOBestEveNAOo2 votes

{quoted}

Really? Hmm maybe I've been out of touch. I haven't played a whole lot of the Marksman Role since preseason came out (there's a marksman+support duo in my usual group).

I was under the impression that Crit did far more than that in its current state. being able to right click for near-assassin-levels of damage seems a little unfair considering how Riot even reworked assassins to make their damage more delayed and less reliable.

Well, this is actually the case right now, but my belief is that this has more to do with the new rune system and the removal of so much starting MR and Armor from champs in general. The new runes essentially were an across the board massive damage buff to everyone. And who can abuse damage best?

The champs that can deliver it from a safe range.

Akenero2 votes

I've NEVER found difficulty in being ahead as a bruiser, personally, and I don't even play tanks in top besides she, who I play as a bruiser anyhow.

oOBestEveNAOo3 votes

{quoted}

I've NEVER found difficulty in being ahead as a bruiser, personally, and I don't even play tanks in top besides she, who I play as a bruiser anyhow.

What matchups do you find easiest? Are there any particularly challenging ones? Do you ever feel as if being counterpicked is pretty much the end of lane or do you generally work around it somehow?

Of the changes I consider for tri force, how abusable do you think this would be on most of the champions you tend to play?

Akenero2 votes

{quoted}

What matchups do you find easiest? Are there any particularly challenging ones? Do you ever feel as if being counterpicked is pretty much the end of lane or do you generally work around it somehow?

Of the changes I consider for tri force, how abusable do you think this would be on most of the champions you tend to play?

Well, being counter picked is annoying as hell, of course. I play champions like kled, Yorick, shen, and used to 1 trick trynd for a while. All of them but trynd have backup gameplay and amazing 1v1 potential. Trynd is most applicable to your post, so I'll go about it like this. I'm trynd Vs a teemo(have good experience in that matchup) First, I'd take q and look for high aggression early, he either has toxic shot or blind, and I have higher damage. I get him down in health by a chunk and walk away. From then on, I farm and heal up the damage I took and DO NOT TRADE, you trade, you lose. I farm up to get a tiamat, since the active provides damage that isn't stopped by the blind, and go into ravenous Hydra for some good sustain. After that, I have more pushing power and a way to hurt him through blind, and lifesteal, teemo dies. From then on, he won't win the fight unless he goes tanky, and crit makes armor half as effective, in a practical sense. So I still win.

As for itemization changes, I don't think any are needed. Melee champions are NATURALLY higher damage than ranged champions, as a reward for being close. So they get more worth out of the same items as an adc. It's not a problem that can be solved with items without adding a TON of complexity to the game.

oOBestEveNAOo2 votes

{quoted}

Well, being counter picked is annoying as hell, of course. I play champions like kled, Yorick, shen, and used to 1 trick trynd for a while. All of them but trynd have backup gameplay and amazing 1v1 potential. Trynd is most applicable to your post, so I'll go about it like this. I'm trynd Vs a teemo(have good experience in that matchup)

OK then, lets see what things typically look like for ya!

First, I'd take q and look for high aggression early, he either has toxic shot or blind, and I have higher damage. I get him down in health by a chunk and walk away. From then on, I farm and heal up the damage I took and DO NOT TRADE, you trade, you lose. I farm up to get a tiamat, since the active provides damage that isn't stopped by the blind, and go into ravenous Hydra for some good sustain. After that, I have more pushing power and a way to hurt him through blind, and lifesteal, teemo dies. From then on, he won't win the fight unless he goes tanky, and crit makes armor half as effective, in a practical sense. So I still win.

So, in general, what I'm taking from this is you abuse situations where the counterpick is misplaying the matchup and itemize, currently, in a fashion to take advantage of their misplay and still win the lane. Sound strategy my friend. My question would then be, what about higher ranking players who won't make those mistakes, who will take blind first in that matchup and prevent you from ever trading with ranged harass that forces you out of lane early and then go into the tank teemo build that is such a huge problem because it's too beefy for you to trade with while also being difficult to escape from because of a ranged champion abusing frozen mallet?

As for itemization changes, I don't think any are needed. Melee champions are NATURALLY higher damage than ranged champions, as a reward for being close.

I believe that is a fine trade off as long as the risk/reward factor is well balanced. More often than not in high level play however the risk is everything while the reward is nothing or next to nothing.

The guy doing the jumping and getting in close has to be able to get that damage off reliably enough to be able to win trades to take advantage and this doesn't seem to occur with any kind of regularity and is mostly unfeasible.

So they get more worth out of the same items as an adc. It's not a problem that can be solved with items without adding a TON of complexity to the game.

I agree, we would have to add a little complexity to combat the issue for higher level play. But I don't think this is something many high level players would mind. In fact we might enjoy a little more complexity on that specific note as it would open up more potential options for rewarding and enjoyable gameplay.

PhDs Nuts2 votes

Completely lost me when you started talking about Trinity Force. That item is dominated by melee champions. The only ranged users I can think of are Ezreal and Corki, but Ezreal doesn't really count since he just abuses everything, and neither of them go top lane. They definitely don't make better use of it than Jax, Camille, or Irelia.

Hammermancer2 votes

{quoted}

Completely lost me when you started talking about Trinity Force. That item is dominated by melee champions. The only ranged users I can think of are Ezreal and Corki, but Ezreal doesn't really count since he just abuses everything, and neither of them go top lane. They definitely don't make better use of it than Jax, Camille, or Irelia.

Never say ezreal can't, because ezreal certainly can, I don't care how troll it sounds, ezreal just will

oOBestEveNAOo2 votes

{quoted}

Completely lost me when you started talking about Trinity Force. That item is dominated by melee champions. The only ranged users I can think of are Ezreal and Corki, but Ezreal doesn't really count since he just abuses everything, and neither of them go top lane. They definitely don't make better use of it than Jax, Camille, or Irelia.

Trinity force has also been abused by other ranged champs: KogMaw Vayne and even on the occasional jungle TwistedFate .

PhDs Nuts1 votes

{quoted}

Trinity force has also been abused by other ranged champs: KogMaw Vayne and even on the occasional jungle TwistedFate .

PSA: RANGED CHAMPS BUILDING AN ITEM ISN'T ALWAYS ABUSE

oOBestEveNAOo2 votes

{quoted}

PSA: RANGED CHAMPS BUILDING AN ITEM ISN'T ALWAYS ABUSE

PSA: A ranged champ taking an item they normally would not take in a certain meta because a niche build has become overly strong is the literal definition of "abuse". When we are discussing the three aforementioned champions each was subsequently nerfed when their synergy with the item in a particular meta began to warp it.

PhDs Nuts1 votes

{quoted}

PSA: A ranged champ taking an item they normally would not take in a certain meta because a niche build has become overly strong is the literal definition of "abuse". When we are discussing the three aforementioned champions each was subsequently nerfed when their synergy with the item in a particular meta began to warp it.

Why would they normally take any item that isn't the current best in slot? That makes no sense. Their best current build for their kit is their meta. If Trinity Force is the best option for a champion, they will buy it. Is Corki abusing it right now? Is Reaver being abused by Lucian because he could be building BoRK instead?

oOBestEveNAOo2 votes

{quoted}

Why would they normally take any item that isn't the current best in slot? That makes no sense. If Trinity Force is the best option for a champion, they will buy it. Is Corki abusing it right now? Is Reaver being abused by Lucian because he could be building BoRK instead?

So clearly we agree then that an item is being abused if its being used over other items because it's so much more effective that it's not worth taking any other.

One of the things this thread is attempting to do is create some choices that diversify gameplay through itemization for bruisers and, tangentially, other classes as well, in an effort to improve the game state and prevent any one particular item from dominating in such a fashion as to warp the meta based on it's effectiveness.

We are considering every item in terms of its abuse-ability in as many respects as we can and then coming up with ways to balance items by tweaking them or offering a counterpoint item that creates a choice which can then be used as a balance point.

PhDs Nuts1 votes

{quoted}

So clearly we agree then that an item is being abused if its being used over other items because it's so much more effective that it's not worth taking any other.

No. That's literally what a meta build is.

I was pointing out how ridiculous it is to start out by saying how Jax and Irelia are struggling to be viable, and then blaming it on ranged champs building Trinity Force when those 2 bruisers have been getting by far the best use out of it for over 4 years.

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

{quoted}

No. That's literally what a meta build is.

I was pointing out how ridiculous it is to start out by saying how Jax and Irelia are struggling to be viable, and then blaming it on ranged champs building Trinity Force when those 2 bruisers have been getting by far the best use out of it for over 4 years.

Ah, I see your problem and why you don't understand now.

You believe that the strength of trinity force on one class does not affect how it is used on other classes. Bruisers clearly don't get the best use out of it because this is a class that is being slowly eliminated from competitive viability.

Meanwhile we see it (the item) a ton in competitive play on a separate class of champions.

Which of course lead and leads to nerfs for the item which ultimately impact said bruisers more than the other classes and perpetuates the cycle of a weakening and ineffective class of champions.

Now these bruiser champions still USE this item because its about as effective as items get for them, but its purely because they don't have other options that would be effective.

This of course leads us up to the premise of the changes I proposed to tri force. And the following work rounding out some items to bring back that element of choice and reestablish a healthy balance point lever for tuning ranged versus melee mechanics.

PhDs Nuts1 votes

{quoted}

Ah, I see your problem and why you don't understand now.

You believe that the strength of trinity force on one class does not affect how it is used on other classes. Bruisers clearly don't get the best use out of it because this is a class that is being slowly eliminated from competitive viability.

Meanwhile we see it (the item) a ton in competitive play on a separate class of champions.

Are you sure about that? I just went through every 5v5 game at the All-Stars tournament. Here's every game with a Trinity Force:

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/WMC2TMNT1/330349?gameHash=21e9904daf1e2567&tab=overview

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/WMC2TMNT1/330219?gameHash=b2bfafda42bc62a1&tab=overview

Two games. Total. In both games, Camille was picked and had a Trinity Force. In one game, Ezreal was also picked and had a Trinity Force. The problem is that the meta is completely revolving around tanks, ADCs, protecting the ADCs, and shredding the tanks. Very few bruisers do that, and supports are extremely overtuned towards protecting the ADCs/tanks that most bruisers can't do their job. Trinity Force isn't the problem.

We definitely don't see Trinity Force "a ton" on a separate class. We barely see the item at all unless it's picked on a bruiser or Ezreal/Corki. We don't see bruisers because of damage creep to where tanks can just deal the damage instead, CC everywhere, and the insane amount of protection in the game.

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

{quoted}

Are you sure about that? I just went through every 5v5 game at the All-Stars tournament. Here's every game with a Trinity Force:

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/WMC2TMNT1/330349?gameHash=21e9904daf1e2567&tab=overview

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/WMC2TMNT1/330219?gameHash=b2bfafda42bc62a1&tab=overview

Two games. Total. In both games, Camille was picked and had a Trinity Force. In one game, Ezreal had a Trinity Force. The problem is that the meta is completely revolving around tanks, ADCs, protecting the ADCs, and shredding the tanks. Very few bruisers do that, and supports are extremely overtuned towards protecting the ADCs/tanks that most bruisers can't do their job. Trinity Force isn't the problem.

So let me get this correct:

You're evidence that bruisers perform fine with it and it's not more advantageous on another class are a pair of games in which the bruiser builds it and loses and a different champion class builds it and wins?

That's really your evidence?

Well, ok then. Thanks for helping prove my point instead of your own...

(Also, i agree. Tri force is not the problem. The dynamic between ranged versus melee for damage out put oriented champions is. One of the ways to combat that discrepancy is to identify things both classes use but only one class seems to be successful with.)

PhDs Nuts1 votes

{quoted}

So let me get this correct:

You're evidence that bruisers perform fine with it and it's not more advantageous on another class are a pair of games in which the bruiser builds it and loses and a different champion class builds it and wins?

That's really your evidence?

Well, ok then. Thanks for helping prove my point instead of your own...

(Also, i agree. Tri force is not the problem. The dynamic between ranged versus melee for damage out put oriented champions is. One of the ways to combat that discrepancy is to identify things both classes use but only one class seems to be successful with.)

Wow. That's not at all what I said. I said there's not some separate class building this item all the time and outshining bruisers with it. Bruisers are out of the meta, and Ezreal is Ezreal.

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

{quoted}

Wow. That's not at all what I said. I said there's not some separate class building this item all the time and outshining bruisers with it. Bruisers are out of the meta, and Ezreal is Ezreal.

You're still making my points here... I've been quite clear about the ineffectiveness of that item being a leading cause as to why bruisers are not part of the meta. It's a core item intended for them and it doesn't actually help them consistently win games. That is quite a problem to have. Particularly when other champs and champ classes CAN use that item effectively.

PhDs Nuts1 votes

{quoted}

You're still making my points here... I've been quite clear about the ineffectiveness of that item being a leading cause as to why bruisers are not part of the meta. It's a core item intended for them and it doesn't actually help them consistently win games. That is quite a problem to have. Particularly when other champs and champ classes CAN use that item effectively.

Who? Who is using this item effectively? What class is it? Nobody is building this item because bruisers are out of the meta, and they use it best. A bruiser getting TF is still the largest single item power spike in the game.

You said "marksmen". Who not named Ezreal is building this item right now?

oOBestEveNAOo2 votes

{quoted}

Who? Who is using this item effectively? What class is it? Nobody is building this item because bruisers are out of the meta, and they use it best.

We've already been over this and you even provided an example of a champion and class that is more consistently winning games using the item than the class the item was intended for.

If you have nothing else to contribute in a constructive fashion you don't have to continue to post.

oOBestEveNAOo2 votes

{quoted}

Ezreal

Is what class now?

And in your own words is "the only one performing" with it.

Meaning what class of champions is currently performing well with the item?

Your rudeness and disrespectful tone is not appreciated, please show yourself out.

FatedSaviour1 votes

how dare you not mention yorick or nasus XD

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

{quoted}

how dare you not mention yorick or nasus XD

Yorick does not quite seem to be struggling at the moment and is a regular tri force user which is quite concerning, especially in the context of these proposed ideas. He is beating other bruiser style champs and playing effectively versus ranged and tank champs in the early and mid game stages. I consider him to be an outlier at the moment that is worth watching as his success seems unique and I believe its likely tied to the changes to his kit.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

TLDR: Melee top laners have been struggling for a few seasons now and part of the problem is income starvation due to typical laning patterns and ineffective itemization that is often better abused by ranged AD carries. Let's uniquely buff some classic "bruiser" items to throw them a bone.

So, when we think of classic top laners in League of Legends what often comes to mind for many of us are champions like: Jax Irelia Tryndamere Nasus Renekton Riven . Maybe a MonkeyKing Darius or even Kled for newer players. One thing each of these champs has in common over the last 2 seasons or so is the fact that they are struggling to remain competitively viable.

...Thing is ranged champs can just make better use of it.

I'm not sure I fully agree. SOME ranged champions can make great use of it, but it's not as big a subset as this statement indicates. If you look at the current use statistics bottom lane purchases this item at roughly 1/3rd the rate that top lane purchases it, and bruisers already benefit more from it due to the increased speed they gain AND their tendency to have higher base damage for the effect.

...the cool down reduction which we will reduce to 10% base (a minor indirect nerf targeted at the marksman caster types that tend to take the item).

This is also a pretty direct nerf to the low-cooldown bruisers who love this item, like Jax, Skarner, Illaoi, Hecarim, etc.

Then we can add a unique passive (let's call it... "arena master" for the moment) that applies only for melee champs: this is a passive that stacks with kills, capping out at 10 stacks with assists being one stack and kills being 2 with each stack adding 10% of the items stat values to the item and reaching 10 stacks doubles the raw stat value of the item, and dying reduces your stack total by half rounded up of your total stacks.

This is insanely powerful. Your suggestion here, if I understand it correctly (keeping stacks the same -10% CDR and adding this), makes Trinity Force give +50 AD, +80% AS, +20% CDR, +500 health, and +10% movement speed if you stack it, on an item that's already 97.04% gold efficient WITHOUT either passive (down a bit with the removal of 10% CDR). It's a must-buy on EVERY bruiser with this, and doesn't actually help them in lane, as the reward is only gained if they actually start winning hard. It's a snowball-more item now, rather than a rebalance to help them out.

I think you might be better served cutting the item's ranged power if we're concerned about that. Reducing it to 125-150% base AD on ranged characters would weaken their power with it further, while ensuring melee characters could still get a powerful boost from it. That change alone would likely bit a solid hit to ranged casters (who would lose about 30-70 damage per spell, which is a significant loss).

Day 2: Black Cleaver Let's tack on something else that stacks to also help encourage the bruiser playstyle like we did with tri force. A melee only passive that grants 20 hp per stack up to 10 stacks with kills granting 2 and assists granting 1 where half rounded up are lost upon death.

Again, this is powerhousing the gold efficiency and making a snowballing win-more item, without actually doing much to increase the viability of these characters. We're hard-limiting them to feast-or-famine with these designs, that that doesn't give them more consistency or utility or suvivability against lanes they struggle with, which means we haven't really addressed the core design issues you bring up.

Day 3: Solarian Arms (Temp name) Active - Allied Champions in aura range (600 units) take 3% reduced damage for the next 5 seconds and regenerate 15% of damage taken during this duration over 5 seconds. If less than 4 allied champions are in aura range then the wielder of Solarian Arms gains 3% more damage reduction per champion missing up to a max of 9%.

I think this is way too complex for League itemization, and the effect is rather invisible, which Riot tends to dislike in their modern designs. I'd rather see it pushed solidly into the damage reduction, shielding, OR healing direction, where you could increase the power accordingly (to make up for the multiple mechanics it has now with one stronger mechanic) while making the effect far more clear.

This also just seems like a better Locket, which is worrying.

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2017-12-11T00:29:33.543+0000)

I'm not sure I fully agree. SOME ranged champions can make great use of it, but it's not as big a subset as this statement indicates. If you look at the current use statistics bottom lane purchases this item at roughly 1/3rd the rate that top lane purchases it, and bruisers already benefit more from it due to the increased speed they gain AND their tendency to have higher base damage for the effect.

If we are talking about purely the champions in terms of the stats gained and who utilizes those specific stats best, certainly then bruisers synergize better.

But we are talking about the game state in totality here and why this item isn't an effective purchase on bruiser type champions and IS an effective purchase for ranged champions (effectiveness in this case meaning greater potential to successfully win a game). I feel like when the totality of the game state is taken into account its pretty apparent that ranged classes will always better benefit from any item that improves DPS because the nature of ranged vs melee matchups naturally leads to income starvation for the melee champ delaying the powerspike in a meta of short games that snowball quickly. In addition this game state further reduces the effectiveness of bruisers regardless of whether or not they purchase tri force as game times are shortened and bruiser itemization is more expensive than any other class of champion while also being less impactful with less opportunities to express skill.

Additionally, as the link you provided shows unequivocally, the win rate is MUCH higher in bot lane despite the use rate being lower. In top lane in similar stages prior to late late game (which bot laners never seem to reach as they win before this point and thus there is little or no data on late late game stages for them) the item actually has a negative win rate (unless you count the 10 minute games, and then the win rate out of top lane is 20% less than it is out of bot lane) while bot lane has a very positive win rate. This might be the single most important metric to consider at the moment.

This is also a pretty direct nerf to the low-cooldown bruisers who love this item, like Jax, Skarner, Illaoi, Hecarim, etc.

As was intended as these are the specific champions I had in mind (along with irelia and that low cooldown ult) who might be able to truly abuse some of these changes in a harmful way.

This is insanely powerful. Your suggestion here, if I understand it correctly (keeping stacks the same -10% CDR and adding this), makes Trinity Force give +50 AD, +80% AS, +20% CDR, +500 health, and +10% movement speed if you stack it, on an item that's already 97.04% gold efficient WITHOUT either passive (down a bit with the removal of 10% CDR). It's a must-buy on EVERY bruiser with this, and doesn't actually help them in lane, as the reward is only gained if they actually start winning hard. It's a snowball-more item now, rather than a rebalance to help them out.

Gonna have to take my made up numbers with a grain of salt here. I'm not the best pure numbers guy for balance stuff and anything I post is liable to be tuned too strong by the numbers in order to make the proposed changes easy to understand (and to make the math easy on me, 10 stacks, 10% per stack, ez pz). Tri force could have it's price increased or these numbers toned down, but I think the stacking melee only passive mechanic offers a better tuning lever in general.

I think you might be better served cutting the item's ranged power if we're concerned about that. Reducing it to 125-150% base AD on ranged characters would weaken their power with it further, while ensuring melee characters could still get a powerful boost from it. That change alone would likely bit a solid hit to ranged casters (who would lose about 30-70 damage per spell, which is a significant loss).

Its an interesting thought. Certainly worth considering more fully. Would that type of change simultaneously help bruisers in direct ranged vs melee matchups in top lane? It doesn't seem like a change that affects a matchup versus Jayce or Gnar or Lucian. In these circumstances the bruiser still loses lane and builds the item with very little effectiveness in mid game fights or split pushes.

This type of nerf could work, but it only solves the problem of AD casters without addressing the item's lackluster performance on bruisers.

I'm more of a fan of multi layered changes that solve multiple problems at once with a single change.

Again, this is powerhousing the gold efficiency and making a snowballing win-more item, without actually doing much to increase the viability of these characters. We're hard-limiting them to feast-or-famine with these designs, that that doesn't give them more consistency or utility or suvivability against lanes they struggle with, which means we haven't really addressed the core design issues you bring up.

The nature of top lane is pretty much always feast or famine with the exception of CC heavy tanks. Because lane phase has historically always been that way (and likely always will), one of the reasons these changes are targeted for late lane phase and mid game phase is because this phase with a more open map allows for more strategic options to counteract an early deficit instead of just tactical ones. In fact, late lane phase and early mid game should likely be the point we are looking at to enhance the power of bruiser type champs so that these snowball situations (often caused by early jungler interaction or being pushed out of lane by an abusive pushing champ like Heimerdinger or Jayce ) can be countered by 2v1 lane swaps that allow your team's bruiser to catch up when the opposing laner is forced into a window of time where they are forced off of cs.

In addition the change to Black Cleaver's build path will help more champions in lane even though Gnar is still the one to benefit the most from the change.

And lastly, the nature of stacking items is such (think Mura Mana, Rod of Ages, old school Warmogs) is that they complete in mid game and transform shortly there after into a final form offering a delayed powerspike that encourages a particular play style that then encourages a number of strategic and tactical counter choices, increasing diversity. Do we fight now? Do we give it up and wait for the power spike? Do we send some one alone to stack up? Do we protect that person while they stack?

I think this is way too complex for League itemization, and the effect is rather invisible, which Riot tends to dislike in their modern designs. I'd rather see it pushed solidly into the damage reduction, shielding, OR healing direction, where you could increase the power accordingly (to make up for the multiple mechanics it has now with one stronger mechanic) while making the effect far more clear.

This also just seems like a better Locket, which is worrying.

I think mathematically, in terms of damage reduction, the effect is better than locket in early game stages and lesser in later game stages except when the user gets the bonus % reduction from allies not being in range (encouraging splitting). It also encourages more drawn out fights as opposed to all ins like locket does, but the effect is pretty invisible. It did not stop the creation of Death's Dance or Phantom Dancer.

As with all the item changes proposed the number values are not going to be good. I am admittedly not the best individual for that. But I do think the proposed changes offer some new and worthwhile balance levers and mechanics that have potential to assist a hurting class in the stages of the game where they are struggling the most as a simple look at champion.gg shows many of these champs are performing acceptable in sub 20 minute games where they snowball (largely games where only one item is completed and we have already established that these champions tend to snowball based on jungler interaction) but much more poorly in 20-35 minute games and a wide range of win rates in long games going past 35+ minutes according to the late game intended strengths of specific champions (Darius performs more poorly in late game due to kiting issues, Irelia performs well in long games as split pushing again becomes a viable strategy and she completes items to be able to perform that function well). A real outlier here is that Jax, of all champions, is struggling harder and harder as games go long, which is quite surprising.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}Gonna have to take my made up numbers with a grain of salt here. I'm not the best pure numbers guy for balance stuff and anything I post is liable to be tuned too strong by the numbers in order to make the proposed changes easy to understand (and to make the math easy on me, 10 stacks, 10% per stack, ez pz). Tri force could have it's price increased or these numbers toned down, but I think the stacking melee only passive mechanic offers a better tuning lever in general.

I'll grant you grain of salt, but that was quite a bit of a grain there. :P

I can't say it offers a better tuning lever -- I think there ARE great mechanics you could add, but I think they'd need to be reliable ones. Most of the characters you listed already scale well if they get ahead, and their struggles are often that they CAN'T, or that they lack utility when they do. I don't think any of them truly lack POWER, which is all this changes (and the other suggestions you made) give -- power when ahead, on a class that's not useful for much OTHER than stomping when ahead.

Its an interesting thought. Certainly worth considering more fully. Would that type of change simultaneously help bruisers in direct ranged vs melee matchups in top lane? It doesn't seem like a change that affects a matchup versus Jayce or Gnar or Lucian. In these circumstances the bruiser still loses lane and builds the item with very little effectiveness in mid game fights or split pushes.

This type of nerf could work, but it only solves the problem of AD casters without addressing the item's lackluster performance on bruisers.

A change that would help more then, without breaking Trinity Force's scaling, might be to give melee characters a short dash with their empowered auto-attack, much like Illaoi gets. That gives them a bit more target accessibility, without being a huge numbers spike on characters that probably need reliability more than power.

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T01:43:47.414+0000)

I'll grant you grain of salt, but that was quite a bit of a grain there. :P

Grains? Plural? A whole shaker worth?

This is why I leave the numbers up to Riot with all their data and I just spitball concepts and ideas.

I can't say it offers a better tuning lever -- I think there ARE great mechanics you could add, but I think they'd need to be reliable ones. Most of the characters you listed already scale well if they get ahead, and their struggles are often that they CAN'T, or that they lack utility when they do. I don't think any of them truly lack POWER, which is all this changes (and the other suggestions you made) give -- power when ahead, on a class that's not useful for much OTHER than stomping when ahead.

Fair concern for Cleaver and Tri Force. I don't think "Arms" is actually all that desirable a purchase when ahead, I'd rather go GA or complete my Hydra. Other items are certainly more targeted at being behind and giving options, but my personal feeling is that even when ahead these champs can really struggle come mid game as they simply aren't able to make use of the power spike and out put reliable damage in many skirmish or siege situations and a lot of the champion metrics support the thought that mid game (immediately after these champions complete the item) is when these champs are performing the WORST! Alarming, I know, to consider that the metrics actually SUPPORT making this kind of a dramatic change to the item and increasing its power so much. I am just as concerned by that as I assume most people are and clearly a push is needed but a push too hard will break things in the wrong direction instead of achieving a middle ground.

A change that would help more then, without breaking Trinity Force's scaling, might be to give melee characters a short dash with their empowered auto-attack, much like Illaoi gets. That gives them a bit more target accessibility, without being a huge numbers spike on characters that probably need reliability more than power.

This is pretty interesting. It's a small change that could probably be easily implemented and might do a bit to help out. My concern here is that any ranged Frozen Mallet taker won't be concerned or bothered by this change to the enemy laner's play mechanics as they still won't be able to reach the Mallet user or stick to them if by chance they do.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}This is pretty interesting. It's a small change that could probably be easily implemented and might do a bit to help out. My concern here is that any ranged Frozen Mallet taker won't be concerned or bothered by this change to the enemy laner's play mechanics as they still won't be able to reach the Mallet user or stick to them if by chance they do.

Frozen Mallet is designed specifically for ranged kiting, yes. If that's an issue, the solution is to address Frozen Mallet than discount a change because of what Frozen Mallet can do.

The main problem with your previous suggestions, from a design perspective, is that you're gluing on snowballing gold efficiency, which isn't addressing the actual issues with the lack of utility and reliability of the bruisers in question. THAT'S why my suggestion was aimed at bringing needed reliability rather than raw stats -- since that's where the problem lies, that's the sort of solution we need to bring to the table. Riot doesn't really go for +stats as a solution to issues, especially when you're skewing gold efficiency by that much.

As you yourself said:

as they simply aren't able to make use of the power spike and out put reliable damage in many skirmish or siege situations

Your solutions don't enable them to do that -- they're just stronger stat-wise, and exactly as unable to put out reliable damage due to their limited mobility, range, and utility.

In effect, if there's a core problem, let's solve THAT, rather than just throwing numbers at it and hoping it fixes the issue. :)

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kO3v3opg,comment-id=000d0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T02:03:04.379+0000)

Frozen Mallet is designed specifically for ranged kiting, yes. If that's an issue, the solution is to address Frozen Mallet than discount a change because of what Frozen Mallet can do.

I agree, and the changes for Frozen Mallet are to come. Although I mostly feel bumping down the 30% slow to 20% will help solve a lot of this item's problems, with perhaps a change to the duration upon application from range as well to mirror the other 1/2 efficiency for ranged champ limitations.

The main problem with your previous suggestions, from a design perspective, is that you're gluing on snowballing gold efficiency, which isn't addressing the actual issues with the lack of utility and reliability of the bruisers in question. THAT'S why my suggestion was aimed at bringing needed reliability rather than raw stats -- since that's where the problem lies, that's the sort of solution we need to bring to the table. Riot doesn't really go for +stats as a solution to issues, especially when you're skewing gold efficiency by that much.

It is indeed adding some snowballing potential to the item. And some of my later thoughts and ideas tie into why that proposed change is something I intended. Particularly with some of the active type effects I'm suggesting as I feel they are quite strong and offer a lot of utility. The trade off for acquiring some of these more utility focused items (giving bruisers some meta tank like tools) is that they will be rather lack luster in terms of gold efficiency and having them as part of a standard bruiser build pattern would mean a bruiser type champ is more focused on relying on the one pure DPS item (Tri Force or Cleaver) with a number of utility items and a specific matchup item or two to perform a specific role function.

The numbers now reflect mostly that I want that item to be a focus for them and that I picked easy to understand numbers to make the change obvious.

Your solutions don't enable them to do that -- they're just stronger stat-wise, and exactly as unable to put out reliable damage due to their limited mobility, range, and utility.

In effect, if there's a core problem, let's solve THAT, rather than just throwing numbers at it and hoping it fixes the issue. :)

Some of these active effects on later planned items will do a lot of that, but the active is a huge benefit in many cases and this will mean the item needs to be less stat effective as a trade off. Some of the proposed changes to Tri Force take into account current bruiser stats in later game stages and try to match that with newer items that can offer some of that utility they are missing without taking away too much from the nature of bruisers needing raw stats. My numbers won't be great, but they are just one small part of what I'm thinking and the numbers based changes came first because they are easiest to understand for most people giving more folks the opportunity to start this article from a common understanding before I start layering in more complexity.

Which of course brings us back to the point you made that some of this complexity may be too much for this game.

And that's fine, simplifying a complex idea once you've established something that could potentially work into it's most distilled form is easier than trying to come up with the simple and distilled form from scratch.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}It is indeed adding some snowballing potential to the item. And some of my later thoughts and ideas tie into why that proposed change is something I intended.

Just be aware that that isn't an especially healthy design, and it makes those items FAR too gold efficient, and not in a good way for long-term game health (or for solving the issues those characters have).

In general, I'd start every concept with "what are the issues with this item" and then fix accordingly. I doubt anyone's actual issue with Trinity Force is that melee characters need 100% more stats, or that Black Cleaver isn't giving enough health. Those sort of adjustments just get us into the Season 2 bruiser meta, where balls of stats snowballed against each other.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

So, since we got into a rather long discussion yesterday, I've been thinking a bit. Going to toss out some thoughts on items that might help solve this sort of problem. These are sort of back-of-the-napkin designs, but I think both serve their purposes pretty well.

#Zephyr Design Goal: Create an item for brawling bruisers that enables them to have more reliable engage, along with solid synergy with items like Black Cleaver or Titanic Hydra (due to the AS granted). Some skirmisher appeal is likewise intended, if they want to opt into more durability.

Stinger + Kindlegem + ??? gold || Melee Only +X Movement Speed +X% Attack Speed +X Health 20% CDR

Unique Active: Deal 150% base AD magic damage in a long line, leaving a one-directional trail behind for 2.5 seconds. When travelling along the trail, gain 45% bonus movement speed and pass through units. 40 second cooldown.

#Hungering Gauntlet Design Goal: Create an item to assist bruisers farming vs. ranged characters. It's designed as an early purchase, and would probably scale into a later item that I haven't designed yet. You could keep the scaling health part of the passive, or simply bake it in to the power like the Seeker's Armguard's upgrades.

Ruby Crystal + Rejuvenation Bead + ?? gold|| Melee Only +X Health Regen +200 Health +15% Base AD

Unique Passive: When you kill a minion or monster, gain 2 health permanently (to a maximum of 100 bonus health), and gain a shield for 2 seconds. The next champion or jungle monster attack or spell against you during this time deals 9 (+1/level) damage less, tripled against ranged attacks or spells. The shield does not stack.

##Radiant Vambrace Design Goals: An item to help against ranged damage dealers, including those who deal the bulk of their damage through spells.

Longsword + Rejuvenation Bead + Ruby Crystal + ?? gold +X health +X health regeneration +X AD

Unique Active: Create a bubble around yourself out to 300 range for 1.5 second. Attacks and spells damaging you from outside the radius instead deal damage to the bubble first, which has 40-200 health (level scaling). Leftover damage and any effects pass on to you. 15 second cooldown.

oOBestEveNAOo1 votes

I don't always play jayce...

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/GTTBpLdl-i-dontt-always-play-jayce-but-when-i-do

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