Boards›Gameplay

I Feel ADC Itemization Too Heavily Favors Endgame Right Now

Sohleks··3 votes·1,749 views

With a build like this:

http://imgur.com/sTXI6r1.jpg

With this build you have the insane sustain of BT and 90% crit. I actually feel the eventual powerspike of building like this is currently too attractive on most ADCs. Powerspikes from items like ghostblade, blade of the ruined king, or static shiv do not feel good enough.

In pro play you do actually see a variety of build paths honestly, like someone on a strong early game ADC might rush a BT on a team that wants to absolutely maximize early/mid game pressure. However these tactics have had mixed success. There's also Corki and Ezreal who have their own builds and powerspikes. And there's Vayne. However for every other ADC in the game it seems building standard is the way to go.

This build really really favors Jinx who currently has a very high pick and win rate. In my opinion Jinx is a little OP herself however part of the issue is the power of this build. It really doesn't help Jinx have AoE crit autos.

I feel like the sustain and protection on BT is too powerful compared to Blade of the Ruined King. For this reason I believe Blade of the Ruined King deserves a buff. Maybe a little more lifesteal, or attack speed. Or a little AD.

It's weird that simply relocating 5% crit did this. Maybe PD was previously underrated. Maybe I am overreacting now.

I think perhaps BT is not balanced properly. I wish it felt more like the old BT. With more AD and a little less sustain or protection. Ever since BT became what it is now it's became a staple buy for end game survivability. Bork just does not protect you well enough in comparison.

I now see even Vayne rushing IE, PD, BT these days.

39 Comments

YossarianSensei6 votes

ADC is supposed to be for late game. The original static shiv was offering too much compared to PD, and not just on ADC's.

Now there's actually good opportunity to choose between PD and Shiv, and BoRK is still a good choice. It just so happens to be most people aren't health stacking tanks, so BT is generally better.

Sohleks1 votes

Bork is still okay mid game before you have 6 items. I still build it.

But I eventually sell it. At this point I'm pretty sure it no longer has a place in any 6 item build on any ADC, including Vayne. Even considering the active. Even versus tanks. The protection and sustain of BT is too valuable.

YossarianSensei2 votes

Disagree, I still find plenty of opportunities to build BoRK

If you were gunna die without the BT, chances are you'd still die with the BT shield.

In a lot of cases the BoRK active is a more valuable defense than the BT.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Bork is still okay mid game before you have 6 items. I still build it.

But I eventually sell it. At this point I'm pretty sure it no longer has a place in any 6 item build on any ADC, including Vayne. Even considering the active. Even versus tanks. The protection and sustain of BT is too valuable.

I don't really get what is supporting your beliefs. Why is Botrk no longer worth it? It's not been nerfed, and BT hasn't been buffed. Neither of them are doing anything different to what they've done in the recent past, so what's caused the supposed change?

rth21 votes

BT gives a lot more AD than bork( I believe 55 more). He is saying the sustain (now that 2xpd and IE gives 90% crit) is just flat out better than that you would get with bork. So that extra AD multiplied by the crit then turned into lifesteal. I think that's what he's talking about.

Dingding1233 votes

I for one completely understand and sympathise with what you're talking about.

Two PD's, IE, BT and LW is just always the way to go on any adc with 600+ range now; with that build they kill everything, end of story. No tank can take that ridiculous amount of dps, and no fighter can outtrade that much sustain. It's a broken build.

I think the problem really lies in BT and LW. Without them the crits wouldn't matter nearly as much on marksmen. I think BT should be reworked to favor both melee and ranged champions and give less lifesteal, and LW should be replaced with something that isn't as cheesy of an item because as of right now LW is the cheesiest item in the game.

BluePolarizer3 votes

yep there's no diversity in ADC builds anymore. I'm even starting to see Lucian players go BT/IE/PD/LW/Boots/random item, whereas before I'd see stuff like BoRK/Ghostblade, BoRK/Triforce, etc. I believe Ez, Kog and Corki are the last ADCs to go BoRK/Triforce. That is because all ADCs must fit a cookie cutter hard carry status, rather than having unique roles like survivability, kiting bruisers/assassins, tank shredding, sieging or teamfight engaging.

Sohleks1 votes

This is exactly how I'm feeling. Builds are too homogenized because ultimately the end game dps build scales too hard, the powerspike of other items is not significant compared to building IE, then PD, then BT or LW

In pro play they're better able to leverage these small powerspikes. But in casual play I think the standard ADC build is starting to appear king

BluePolarizer1 votes

This is another reason why Twitch is no longer good: his core items - BoRK and Ghostblade - are bad, while Twitch's poor farming and ult mechanics means he gets less out of PD/IE/BT/LW than other carries. Now burst ADCs can't burst anymore, so they have no choice but to build crit.

Irelia Bot2 votes

{quoted}

yep there's no diversity in ADC builds anymore. I'm even starting to see Lucian players go BT/IE/PD/LW/Boots/random item, whereas before I'd see stuff like BoRK/Ghostblade, BoRK/Triforce, etc. I believe Ez, Kog and Corki are the last ADCs to go BoRK/Triforce. That is because all ADCs must fit a cookie cutter hard carry status, rather than having unique roles like survivability, kiting bruisers/assassins, tank shredding, sieging or teamfight engaging.

aka we need to buff tanks and assassins so as to make there be more value in building to survive assassins who are then countered by tanks who are then countered by sustained damage aka marksmen/fighters.

Erockandroll2 votes

You really want at least one defensive item. Even on an ADC (usually either a QSS/mercurial scimitar, banshee's veil, or Guardian Angel.) You could sub your boots for a Zephyr at the end game if you really want more DPS.

Itemization does favor late game. But I believe that Other factors than Itemization affect the Balancing of the game. For example, Graves is a popular pick right now, and his power is in the Early to mid game. This is most likely a result of the Hyper carries losing power in the mid game. (with the Lucian nerfs, and the Trist rework.)

Sohleks1 votes

That game we got baron and I literally farmed up just enough for my BT and recalled. Went mid and won the teamfight with 90% crit.

If the game was longer I would sell boots for a defensive item. Mercurial scimitar is really good right now. 80 AD and defensive utility. Kind of OP

Erockandroll2 votes

{quoted}

That game we got baron and I literally farmed up just enough for my BT and recalled. Went mid and won the teamfight with 90% crit.

If the game was longer I would sell boots for a defensive item. Mercurial scimitar is really good right now. 80 AD and defensive utility. Kind of OP

Zephyr works because of the 10% MS buff. If you trade your Boots for the defensive item, you will be moving too slowly.

Skia Asteri1 votes

{quoted}

Zephyr works because of the 10% MS buff. If you trade your Boots for the defensive item, you will be moving too slowly.

Two PD + third dragon buff is 15% MS. 15% of 325 is 48.75. So it is only slow compared to boots + a % MS item.

Sukishoo2 votes

Woah woah woah....item 3253... on an adc. like wat. srs. That is NOT the enchantment anyone would dare go with on a proper adc. Try item 3252 , it helps much much more.

Sohleks1 votes

Well I was playing Tristana top lane. I was running teleport so I was getting double benefit from it.

Besides I think the flash cd reduction effect is seriously underrated. It even gives you bonus movespeed on flash use.

I had a feeling people would nitpick the shoes. " Sell boots! You need a defensive item! Distortion?!"

The point of this thread is BT and [double] PD outputting insane damage and healing you for 200 twice a second.

Inb4 " Trist top? That's soo bad." .... Trist solo lane is very effective when the enemy jungler has poor ganking potential. You're impossible to gank and scale well and just put pressure on the enemy laner and tower easily.

Sukishoo2 votes

Trist... top! NEVER!

Nah, I play ADCs in all areas (including jungle), but still I would never take TP even if I were one, so wouldn't have any effect from it. The Furor enchant is always better overall as it allows you to stick to your target much more effectively.

Anyway, as someone else already mentioned, that build is more of season 2 when you'd want to have two PDs. Anymore builds tend to be more item 3031 item 3046 item 3072 item 3153 item 3006 item 3026 item 3031item 3035 item 3072 item 3153 item 3006 item 3026 item 3031item 3035 item 3072 item 3046 item 3006 item 3026

Sohleks1 votes

Even on ADC "casters" with good laning/mid game the crit build is dominate. It doesn't feel right to me.

Graves Draven Sivir MissFortune

TheKingDodo2 votes

Mf actually benefits from getting item 3078 same with Ez. Other than that, you can play her as a mage and not go the crit path at all... but her E, W, and R don't scale well with AD. W and Q are basically auto steroids (where Q acts as a reset). So she needs crit. Draven's all Auto attacks... he's not a caster Graves just happen to get tons of crit from item 3142 Sivir's Q range's is not "huge", plus she needs autos to proc W since it's basically an auto steroid. she's not a caster. All in all, "ADC casters," as confusing as the term is, all utilize auto steroids. and therefore benefit from crit. Honestly all ADs glass cannons can go crit since crit provides the most damage in all scenarios (even in non moba games) the question is whether a particular champion needs/ can live long enough to make use of the crit. Tryndamere and MasterYi are notable examples of non ranged adcs that fit that description. Darius Riven Aatrox Jayce Jax JarvanIV Khazix Nocturne Olaf Pantheon Renekton Rengar Shaco Sion Vi Zed can technically all go full crit build... but that's pretty overkill plus they'd get deleted like full crit DrMundo and Garen

Yandere Carry1 votes

Draven's kit incorporates Crit.

Sightless661 votes

No it doesn't. It used to back when his old passive applied whenever you crit, but right now it doesn't. In fact, given that his axes don't interact with crit in any way (as opposed to AS or AD steroids which would increase the dps increase that crit gives), he actually doesn't synergize with crit at all.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

I feel like the sustain and protection on BT is too powerful compared to Blade of the Ruined King. For this reason I believe Blade of the Ruined King deserves a buff. Maybe a little more lifesteal, or attack speed. Or a little AD.

Very scary idea. You don't want to buff BoRK on assassins. Already a fantastic item on Zed and so on.

BT nerfs sound pretty chill. We've done it before. We can do it again.

TheKingDodo1 votes

who builds 2 item 3046s? you don't even benefit from the second passive -_-' at least get item 3087

Zuly1 votes

Liquid Keith built it in their game against CLG. He went double PD on Jinx and didn't go boots or sold them for a second PD. I can't recall. 90% crit and three shotted Doublelift's six item Tristana.

Yandere Carry1 votes

that's not the same thing. This guy suggests double PD in standard build along with boots.

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

yes, if you don't go for ga, this is the standard build for an adc. You do ridiculous, and I mean, REDICULOUS amounts of damage. Distortion on the boots is the only thing that's meh

Skia Asteri1 votes

{quoted}

who builds 2 item 3046s? you don't even benefit from the second passive -_-' at least get item 3087

Shiv is so much worse in terms of stats that the waste of the passive does not matter in terms of end game slot efficiency.

Irelia Bot1 votes

ADC should be for late game but they are honestly so mobile and so strong against most melee early game that they lack a clear weak early game to justify their late game power.

Angry Monster1 votes

wow you must of joined season 4.

And your build you list at the start, is what season 2 pretty much looked like at end game for every ADC.

rth21 votes

... you should hover over the name. They are season 3 and season 4 diamond.

I think they are just concerned over the 5% change, causing a difference in the end game crit %. Getting you up to the 90% mark, when paired with bloodthirster. You have to remember, all of the items in his listed build have changed since season 2; even last whisper does a different % of penetration. I think they are trying to point out a spot where they believe power creep has emerged.

Angry Monster1 votes

i did hover over the name. no badges are showing up. I pulled his account up on the client and saw his last season rank. That has nothing to do with when he started league though.

But its the same concept overall. I would argue that LW in season 2 did more for ADCs than it does now. In season 2 people would hit the 2.5 cap frequently with I think 100% crit rates. (hard to remember i am old). considering most ADCs(season 4+) do not even hit 2.0 AS says something.

The point is the build is nothing new or that the reasons for the build are new. The high crit rates are not new either. ADCs should be able to build chance out of their builds, as long as they are willing to itemize the right way. And i say this as a jungler main.

His way of thinking is of more recent player to league. Where everyone cries that ADCs are op cause they do LATE GAME. Lets be honest that is all the ADC has.

rth21 votes

Yeah, the forums badge display is a bit clunky sometimes.

I hear you about age, I was trying to remember when dodge % got removed from phantom dancer. o.o

Yeah, attack speed has gone down a lot on ADC's over the years but I think that's a conscious decision; forcing more of a balance between attack speed and power.

And your build you list at the start, is what season 2 pretty much looked like at end game for every ADC.

I was just trying to clarify, which I did a poor job of, that I believe that is his point. That ADC builds are basically the same.

Wasn't really weighing in on whether it was the right or wrong point of view, just wanted to clarify that I think that is his point. ADC builds haven't really had a big change of end game build.

I do agree with you that ADC should be able to build chance out of their kit. Mostly because with a build like the one listed, yes you are building chance away and doing a boatload of damage. But you are also made of paper. LB still deletes you. CC and follow up still deletes you. If you step in the wrong spot you are still deleted b/c you built literally no defense.

I have mained ADC the past couple seasons, and late game is where you really earn your salt. If you get your items, and you keep your positioning on point and don't get focused, you will burn people down. If an enemy team ignores you that late in the game, that is kind of the price they pay.

I tend to build really high crit, especially 6 item without boots, but i don't think it's really been game breaking or anything. You still have to watch your step. And if you don't build defense, you are on even thinner ice.

Angry Monster1 votes

and now i say fair enough. Though i would argue most builds are static. Every irella and jax wants a Tri force. Every mid mage wants a zhonas and death cap and void.

Static builds are always here though. Its a greater problem than just adcs.

rth21 votes

Agreed. Core items are core items; and they are generally core for a reason.

Skia Asteri1 votes

AD/AS/Crit/Armour Pen builds have always been intended to be the absolute best damage builds at 6 items as far as I understand. For any champion, including those with only AP scalings on their abilities.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

change second pd to static

you lose a couple of crit which is barely noticable

but you gain much more damage

Skia Asteri1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kFEZbrph,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-03-05T15:56:09.365+0000)

change second pd to static

you lose a couple of crit which is barely noticable

but you gain much more damage

Assuming 100 base AD, with item 3031 item 3072 item 3035 you have 300 AD without factoring in other sources. You crit for 750. Missing a crit loses out on more damage than Shiv does in the case of its damage crit'ing.

Never mind the difference in attack speed, when each non-crit auto is better than Shiv when it crits.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

what floats your boat, i prefer some burst

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Sohleks

Petition to add Dominion's Theme Song to SR as option
Gameplay33 comments
265
votes
Can we get Grades and Keystone in our matchhistory?
Gameplay25 comments
209
votes
Why does Haunting Guise cost 1600g ?
Gameplay91 comments
109
votes
Can we get a patience bar on dragon?
Gameplay9 comments
42
votes
Azir is oppressive in lane...
Gameplay40 comments
27
votes
Void Monster Skins playable? For sale?
Story, Art, & Sound18 comments
27
votes