Nerf Veigar's STUN

Cibreca·Oct 14, 2015·6 votes·5,067 views

That stun is more effective than most ultimates. It's a 2.5 second AOE stun that lasts 3 seconds on the map. Effectively a 5.5 second CC. Never mind that he has no AP cap (which he should have) and his AP ratios are insane. And worst his stun comes back after 14 seconds if he has no CD reduction, and 8 seconds if he does. So you have a 2 second window against Veigar--or if you dodge his stun a 5 second window. Yeah you can do a lot in 5 seconds, but not if Veigar has a TEAM. Oh wait he does it's a team game!

Get rid of his stun.

I played the original DOTA on Warcraft and I love that hero who had a delayed OP ground attack (the one who summoned the inferno). It was so hard to land it, and she had to channel it. It was so much risk/reward it was fun.

Veigar, has the assistance of a crazy stun, no channelling, and practically no cooldown--not to mention infinite mana and AP.

NERF VEIGAR.

Why? Because he can just drop a stun--his team will take a tower--and after that he will take some kills.

Let him channel something--not drop a spell and run--and let the stun be smaller, easier to get around--or at least stun when inside not when outside. Nerf him. He's an AP Hypercarry.

44 Comments

Mat7itanOct 14, 20155 votes

Maybe you should offer a solution instead of just bitching.

PDE5 InhibitorsOct 14, 20151 votes

I believe "get rid of his stun" was his solution.

Mat7itanOct 15, 20151 votes

Well yeah but what are you going to give him to make up for the loss of the stun?

lB2kGRlc8yOct 15, 20151 votes

and what a bad solution it was.

PDE5 InhibitorsOct 15, 20151 votes

Oh, I agree. I was just stating that guy would have seen it if he read it.

CibrecaOct 14, 20151 votes

Good point.

Make him more vulnerable. Right now he's "missile launch detected."

Either his stun should be shorter--or maybe give him more cast times. Like I acknowledged, one of the best champs in the "MOBA" history was the caster in the original DOTA. She had CAST-TIME. Delays are nice, but if you're going to have an OP champ, cast times are all the difference. Veigar can run from you, drop a stun, drop a powerful spell, and keep running. You can't do much against Veigar--without him getting a kill and 5 AP in the process.

I'd say add CAST-TIME, it's consistent with the theme and makes him more risk/reward. Instead of 'reward/reward' like he is now.

He has one of the largest and one of the longest stuns in the game. Nevermind the highest AP and some of the higher AP ratios.

SquidsmastahOct 15, 20153 votes

He IS vulnerable! Health is almost required on him because he can get blown the fuck up by most everyone! And maybe, you'll have less time dealing with his stun if you don't RUN INTO THE RIM.

DrCyanideOct 15, 20151 votes

I think the OP wants Veigar to instantly die if he walks into a certain range of an enemy champion, kinda like how Eve de-stealths if she's too close to someone.

SirPacifistaOct 15, 20151 votes

one of the best champs in the "MOBA" history was the caster in the original DOTA. She had CAST-TIME.

She? do you mean invoker, who had 28 differnet spells (later only 14 because ) because there are ALOT of "CASTER" in dota, an i dont know who you meant with "She had CAST-TIME", everyone has a cast time in dota AND in lol, if you mean delay, then only 1 of his 10 skills had a delay (global, pure damage after 1 sec which couldnt be predicted from the enemy)

I'd say add CAST-TIME, it's consistent with the theme and makes him more risk/reward. Instead of 'reward/reward' like he is now.

He has cast time... 1.25 sec delay on W and 0.5 second delay on E (its 0.75s as i know, because of 0.25s cast time).

If you make the delay on E slower, then he will become completly useless like he was in the beginning of the year, where even hardcore Veigar mains stopped playing him.

Make him more vulnerable.

... could work, but then he needs to get a stronger lategame, since he can get killed in less then 2 sec, if the enemy touches him.

CibrecaOct 16, 20151 votes

No not invoker. It's hard to recall the name of the caster but she was in the DOTA on Reign of Chaos. Invoker is from All-Star. I'm talking about DOTA from 2003.

People who played the game know that there was a champion who could summon an inferno (much like Annie's bear) and had a skill similar to Veigar's w; except that she would stand there and cast it, as opposed to insta-casting her spell.

SirPacifistaOct 18, 20151 votes

Thats Lina, her "W" is like Veigars, just faster and that it stuns, but the rest of her skils have no delay (only the ult, where the damages comes 0.5 seconds after it hit (but then again its huge true damage)

NahuiOct 14, 20154 votes

Um, it's not a 3 second stun, it's 2.5 at max rank, so level 18. Until level 14, it's 1.5 seconds since you max it last.

It's not effectively a 6 second CC. It lasts 3 seconds, and stuns for 2.5 at best. So if you wait inside of it for 2.999 seconds and then decide to touch it for 2.5 more seconds, your fault that you were corralled that long. However, realistically, it's a 2.5 second CC at best, only if caught inside, which no one does because Veigar is slow and seeing him hop at you makes you run immediately.

The stun has no "channel" but has a .5 second set up time. The CD is 18-14 seconds. Completely fine. Does not have infinite mana, his passive is not that good. You can thank Athene's for that one.

Only if he maxes CDR can he have his 8.4 second CD, not 8. He throws his stun up, just walk around it. It's really not difficult.

CibrecaOct 14, 20152 votes

I'm being rough with the numbers; but like you said its 3 seconds + 2.5 seconds. 'Cause if you are corralled, he drops his 100% AP ratio and 1000 AP w in the middle and you lose half of your life (or get stunned for 2.5 seconds and he does another two skills on you--and his team!)

Besides that--it remains an incredibly long CC. 'Cause, like you understand, you have to disengage until he uses the skill, then it's up again by the time you catch up to him.

For comparison, look at Yasuo's windwall, he puts it up, it can be walked around, it lasts for 3.75 seconds and has a 18 second cooldown. It's something to consider, sure. But Veigar has a 2.5 second STUN--one of the longer stuns, if not the longest in the game, and it's on a 14 second cooldown. It's width, is a circular 375, which tells you that it's circumference is 375*pi, roughly 1178 units, compared against Yasuo's 500 units. And its a stun.

Riven has an annoying stun. For 0.75 seconds on a 7 second cooldown. Veigar has a 2.5 second stun. For what?

It has 700 range, it has a circumference of 1178 units and it's a stun. The hardest CC in the game. Leona's ultimate, ULTIMATE, stuns for 1.5 seconds in a small beam, and this is on a 60 second cooldown. Veigar can stun a whole team committed to a tower for 2.5 seconds and do it again in 14 seconds.

He's too good at defending and assaulting. Nevermind that he can instakill most champs at 1000 AP--which isn't hard to get, since items alone can bring you up there.

And Veigar isn't even slow. He has a movespeed of 340. Same as Riven but faster than Leona (335). Bear in mind also that Leona's stun has a 0.625 second delay. And it's her ULTIMATE. Plus at 1178 units, it's less about skill and more about "Back up--come back and back up again."

I think 'walking around it' is easy in 1v1. But it's not when attacking a tower--defending a tower--engaging in a team fight--or engaging in a non-Veigar fight.

For instance, if I am a champ, fighting another champ, and Veigar casts (from 700 units away) around me, I'm trapped. Then he w's and that fight is over. It's OP.

Sure one can walk around it in 1v1. But it's OP. What CC compares? And that he has insane mana regeneration on top of insane AP growth, what champ compares?

NahuiOct 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'm being rough with the numbers; but like you said its 3 seconds + 2.5 seconds. 'Cause if you are corralled, he drops his 100% AP ratio and 1000 AP w in the middle and you lose half of your life (or get stunned for 2.5 seconds and he does another two skills on you--and his team!)

Besides that--it remains an incredibly long CC. 'Cause, like you understand, you have to disengage until he uses the skill, then it's up again by the time you catch up to him.

For comparison, look at Yasuo's windwall, he puts it up, it can be walked around, it lasts for 3.75 seconds and has a 18 second cooldown. It's something to consider, sure. But Veigar has a 2.5 second STUN--one of the longer stuns, if not the longest in the game, and it's on a 14 second cooldown. It's width, is a circular 375, which tells you that it's circumference is 375*pi, roughly 1178 units, compared against Yasuo's 500 units. And its a stun.

Riven has an annoying stun. For 0.75 seconds on a 7 second cooldown. Veigar has a 2.5 second stun. For what?

It has 700 range, it has a circumference of 1178 units and it's a stun. The hardest CC in the game. Leona's ultimate, ULTIMATE, stuns for 1.5 seconds in a small beam, and this is on a 60 second cooldown. Veigar can stun a whole team committed to a tower for 2.5 seconds and do it again in 14 seconds.

He's too good at defending and assaulting. Nevermind that he can instakill most champs at 1000 AP--which isn't hard to get, since items alone can bring you up there.

And Veigar isn't even slow. He has a movespeed of 340. Same as Riven but faster than Leona (335). Bear in mind also that Leona's stun has a 0.625 second delay. And it's her ULTIMATE. Plus at 1178 units, it's less about skill and more about "Back up--come back and back up again."

I think 'walking around it' is easy in 1v1. But it's not when attacking a tower--defending a tower--engaging in a team fight--or engaging in a non-Veigar fight.

For instance, if I am a champ, fighting another champ, and Veigar casts (from 700 units away) around me, I'm trapped. Then he w's and that fight is over. It's OP.

Sure one can walk around it in 1v1. But it's OP. What CC compares? And that he has insane mana regeneration on top of insane AP growth, what champ compares?

His mana regen isn't that great, it's just a bit above others with his passive. But even taking a tower, if Veigar is walking towards it, players should back up. If they want to commit and take his skills to the face to get the tower, that's their choice, not Veigar's OPness or something. Even fighting other champions, screen awareness should tell you enough to avoid it. And yes, in team fights he can stun many people. However, the stun itself as much counterplay. Besides avoiding the set up, you should have a banshees veil or a QSS, both I commonly see work wonders vs Veigar. Riven's stun is there partly for her passive, and also to chain CCs together that she has to demolish an enemy. You don't want her .75 second stun on a lower CD, trust me. It's also far more reliable and costs no mana. Leona's ult does damage, applies a passive, and reliably locks down a champion more than Veigar's stun does.

I wouldnt say Veigar is good at defending actually. I'd say he's good at defending vs melee champions, but an ADC hammering at a tower, it's hard for Veigar to catch that out. And in assaults, Veigar often has his stun baited and if fails, usually the enemy team follows up and attacks because now one of their main CCs is gone.

The reason it's so long is that it's a skill shot that actually only stuns in a thin line in a circle that has a set up time.

By slow I mean he has no mobility. You can see him coming at you. There's no dash, blink, TP, etc that should surprise you. Only thing that he can do is flash, but when you argue using flash, you have to include champs like Annie, Darius, Cass, Vi, etc.

I don't think Veigar is quite the issue right now. It's more of the fact that we are at an anti-assassin meta with all these tanks and juggernauts+Cheese devourer champs, so now we have a lot of heavy AP mids coming back into meta, those of which Veigar counters. Once the assassin meta returns, Veigar will drop off the face of League. Veigar is like Zed, he's heavily meta dependent. He's designed to obliterate one target with his ult, and that usually happens to be the Mid but then otherwise loses value. With items like QSS and banshees veil/Zhonyas, a lot of Veigar's power diminishes. Merc treads are also almost universally bought when champs like veigar, morg, annie, etc. are in the game which is more counterplay to the stun.

I don't say you're wrong to hate the stun or want it changed, but unless Veigar destroys worlds (Elise/Rek'Sai/GP/Morde) I don't see them changing him anytime soon. When the meta shifts and he is still a major powerhouse, maybe then they'll tune him.

CibrecaOct 14, 20151 votes

The thing with the mana regen is that you can't rely on him to run out of mana. With other champs, you can say, "They are low--now's my chance." With Veigar, no so much.

I wasn't at all suggesting that Riven should have a lower cooldown. Quite the contrary, I was saying Riven, with her short stun, was considered "OMG that stun!" But Veigar, no contest. For a burst champion to have 2.5 seconds on you--forget about it!

Veigar's stun range is 700 + 375/2. I.e. he can stun 887.5 units away from him, at a 1178 circumference. I was the ADC and while I didn't feed the Veigar, I was zoned out. Admittedly your advice on a Banshee's Veil might have done wonders in that game, but honestly, not much an adc can do, when he can one shot your typical glass cannon, and he can stun from 887.5 units away. Nevermind that the veil, on top of taking up an item slot, is very expensive. He doesn't seem too any mage, as much as he is anti-anything. His combo is 260% AP ratio . . and he regularly achieves 1000 AP. So it's an easy 2600 damage--on top of stunning you for 2.5 seconds--in a game where there are 5 champs focusing the ADC.

But if you say Banshee's and QSS, I'll give it a try (though hopefully I won't need to.) Either way, 2.5 second STUN is insane. It's hard to hit, but not really. It can be cast as far as 887.5 units away, and it takes up a 1178 circumference. I can see how his w is hard to land, but his e is huge. It can be nullified but it's still one dangerous spell.

EDIT: The math for his range is 700 + 375/2 not 700 + 375. So 887.5 replaced 1075.

NahuiOct 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The thing with the mana regen is that you can't rely on him to run out of mana. With other champs, you can say, "They are low--now's my chance." With Veigar, no so much.

I wasn't at all suggesting that Riven should have a lower cooldown. Quite the contrary, I was saying Riven, with her short stun, was considered "OMG that stun!" But Veigar, no contest. For a burst champion to have 2.5 seconds on you--forget about it!

Veigar's stun range is 700 + 375/2. I.e. he can stun 887.5 units away from him, at a 1178 circumference. I was the ADC and while I didn't feed the Veigar, I was zoned out. Admittedly your advice on a Banshee's Veil might have done wonders in that game, but honestly, not much an adc can do, when he can one shot your typical glass cannon, and he can stun from 887.5 units away. Nevermind that the veil, on top of taking up an item slot, is very expensive. He doesn't seem too any mage, as much as he is anti-anything. His combo is 260% AP ratio . . and he regularly achieves 1000 AP. So it's an easy 2600 damage--on top of stunning you for 2.5 seconds--in a game where there are 5 champs focusing the ADC.

But if you say Banshee's and QSS, I'll give it a try (though hopefully I won't need to.) Either way, 2.5 second STUN is insane. It's hard to hit, but not really. It can be cast as far as 887.5 units away, and it takes up a 1178 circumference. I can see how his w is hard to land, but his e is huge. It can be nullified but it's still one dangerous spell.

EDIT: The math for his range is 700 + 375/2 not 700 + 375. So 887.5 replaced 1075.

Banshees is a must vs him. Not only will it give health and MR, it'll allow you to dodge at least one huge part of his kit. If he's dumb enough to launch his ult, it'll eat that. It'll block his cage. Only thing he can hope for is someone else popping it or hitting you with Q first.

QSS is really good on ADCs no matter what champions there are unless somehow there is no hard CC. That'll get you out of the cage and dodge some good damage.Try it out, you might find veigar a lot more managable then. It works for me.

CibrecaOct 16, 20151 votes

Ok thanks. While I don't think that QSS nullifies the OP nature of a 2.5 second stun, the advice is much appreciated. I've just seen Veigar turn around so many games. But maybe it's true that I'm just playing at that stage where Veigar's can carry games.

Malix FarwinOct 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm being rough with the numbers; but like you said its 3 seconds + 2.5 seconds. 'Cause if you are corralled, he drops his 100% AP ratio and 1000 AP w in the middle and you lose half of your life (or get stunned for 2.5 seconds and he does another two skills on you--and his team!)

Besides that--it remains an incredibly long CC. 'Cause, like you understand, you have to disengage until he uses the skill, then it's up again by the time you catch up to him.

For comparison, look at Yasuo's windwall, he puts it up, it can be walked around, it lasts for 3.75 seconds and has a 18 second cooldown. It's something to consider, sure. But Veigar has a 2.5 second STUN--one of the longer stuns, if not the longest in the game, and it's on a 14 second cooldown. It's width, is a circular 375, which tells you that it's circumference is 375*pi, roughly 1178 units, compared against Yasuo's 500 units. And its a stun.

Riven has an annoying stun. For 0.75 seconds on a 7 second cooldown. Veigar has a 2.5 second stun. For what?

It has 700 range, it has a circumference of 1178 units and it's a stun. The hardest CC in the game. Leona's ultimate, ULTIMATE, stuns for 1.5 seconds in a small beam, and this is on a 60 second cooldown. Veigar can stun a whole team committed to a tower for 2.5 seconds and do it again in 14 seconds.

He's too good at defending and assaulting. Nevermind that he can instakill most champs at 1000 AP--which isn't hard to get, since items alone can bring you up there.

And Veigar isn't even slow. He has a movespeed of 340. Same as Riven but faster than Leona (335). Bear in mind also that Leona's stun has a 0.625 second delay. And it's her ULTIMATE. Plus at 1178 units, it's less about skill and more about "Back up--come back and back up again."

I think 'walking around it' is easy in 1v1. But it's not when attacking a tower--defending a tower--engaging in a team fight--or engaging in a non-Veigar fight.

For instance, if I am a champ, fighting another champ, and Veigar casts (from 700 units away) around me, I'm trapped. Then he w's and that fight is over. It's OP.

Sure one can walk around it in 1v1. But it's OP. What CC compares? And that he has insane mana regeneration on top of insane AP growth, what champ compares?

sorry bro, his E is maxed second actually

EnosetcOct 14, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Rand0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k48hWARZ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-10-14T21:58:05.704+0000)

Um, it's not a 3 second stun, it's 2.5 at max rank, so level 18. Until level 14, it's 1.5 seconds since you max it last.

It's not effectively a 6 second CC. It lasts 3 seconds, and stuns for 2.5 at best. So if you wait inside of it for 2.999 seconds and then decide to touch it for 2.5 more seconds, your fault that you were corralled that long. However, realistically, it's a 2.5 second CC at best, only if caught inside, which no one does because Veigar is slow and seeing him hop at you makes you run immediately.

The stun has no "channel" but has a .5 second set up time. The CD is 18-14 seconds. Completely fine. Does not have infinite mana, his passive is not that good. You can thank Athene's for that one.

Only if he maxes CDR can he have his 8.4 second CD, not 8. He throws his stun up, just walk around it. It's really not difficult.

quick note:

veigar's e is usually maxed second by players that win with him the most http://puu.sh/kKuBP/e42269a978.jpg

SpecterVonBarenOct 15, 20151 votes

Who in their right mind would max W second over E? W has a 1/1 ratio, more base damage is just icing, the utility and power of his E is too great to leave at rank one for most of the game.

AbyssphereOct 14, 20152 votes

"It's a 3 second AOE stun that lasts 3 seconds on the map. Effectively a 6 second CC."

Yeah... no. Walking around inside the cage for 3 seconds and then hitting the wall just before it drops will give you 5.5 seconds of "CC" at max rank and that happens in... 1 in 100,000 times that Veigar uses his cage? If you're zoned inside the cage you won't get hit by the stun, and if you're hit by the stun you weren't spending time zoned in the cage. At most it's 3 seconds of impaired movement.

His stun is very strong, but your thread lost all credibility the second you started talking about his E having 6 seconds of CC. And don't even get me started on the "2 second downtime" thing - if Veigar uses his E on you, either you or Veigar will be dead before it comes back up.

CibrecaOct 14, 20151 votes

I think by definition, if you are limited to a space, you are 'crowd controlled.' Much like a cow in a pen is 'crowd controlled.' Obviously, knocking a cow out or sedating a cow is a more obvious form of 'crowd control' but if you are 'corralled' then yeah you are CC'd.

I edited the OP to say 2.5 second stun, so that less people would pick on the number 3, but yeah, it wouldn't be as bad if his w didn't also do 100% AP.

And I would agree with you on Veigar being vulnerable after E if LOL was a tournament game. But as its 5v5, that 3 second impairment (according to you) is no joke. And the stun--which is not as rare a hit as some of you make it seem--is no joke either.

I get that maybe you guys can dodge Veigar's for days. Cool. But obviously Veigar's stun isn't really like that.

What you can do is ask yourself, what if Veigar's stun was 14 seconds, would it be balanced because people can dodge it? Obviously no. Well, 2.5 seconds--which is an insanely long amount of time--while not 14 seconds--is not balanced either.

AbyssphereOct 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I think by definition, if you are limited to a space, you are 'crowd controlled.' Much like a cow in a pen is 'crowd controlled.' Obviously, knocking a cow out or sedating a cow is a more obvious form of 'crowd control' but if you are 'corralled' then yeah you are CC'd.

I edited the OP to say 2.5 second stun, so that less people would pick on the number 3, but yeah, it wouldn't be as bad if his w didn't also do 100% AP.

And I would agree with you on Veigar being vulnerable after E if LOL was a tournament game. But as its 5v5, that 3 second impairment (according to you) is no joke. And the stun--which is not as rare a hit as some of you make it seem--is no joke either.

I get that maybe you guys can dodge Veigar's for days. Cool. But obviously Veigar's stun isn't really like that.

What you can do is ask yourself, what if Veigar's stun was 14 seconds, would it be balanced because people can dodge it? Obviously no. Well, 2.5 seconds--which is an insanely long amount of time--while not 14 seconds--is not balanced either.

But my point wasn't that being zoned inside it isn't crowd control. My point is that you're almost exclusively either zoned inside (3 seconds) or stunned (1.5-2.5 seconds). It's very rare that you spend a significant amount of time stuck inside the cage and still get stunned, so the "it's 6 seconds of CC!" point is ridiculous. It's 3 seconds max, and the 3 second CC is wildly variable in its power.

I feel like you've misunderstood a number of my points - I never actually said at any point in my post that it's difficult to stun people with his E. I just said it's virtually impossible to zone someone inside of it and stun that person in the same cast, because the whole point of someone running around inside of the cage is to avoid hitting the walls.

CibrecaOct 14, 20151 votes

I understood your point. I just didn't want to admit that it happens to me dozens of times, when I'm trying to run around the cage and avoid a 100% AP w or trying to avoid a tower that retargeted on me or miscounted how long that 3 second cc was. Mostly because the w isn't anything to mess with either. He casts it in the middle confidently, or casts it beside you confidently, then you need to make it to the other side, oh wait you can't, because there's 4 other champs waiting to pounce on you--the fool corralled--and boom, stun.

Yeah, it could be rare to corral and stun; yeah it would be rare to be outside of the wall and get stunned, yeah it's effectively a less than 5.5 second corral.

But a 2.5 second stun is still insanely long. You can say it's not 5.5 seconds, and I guess that's true, but 2.5 is still insanely long.

MohawkBirdOct 14, 20151 votes

More often than not if you are zoned inside the cage you are just as dead as you were if you were actually stunned. It leaves you a sitting duck when trying to fight him if you are a short range caster and you are 100% fucked if you're melee of any form.

CibrecaOct 14, 20151 votes

Exactly! Finally someone understands!!!

MohawkBirdOct 14, 20152 votes

I hate to say it but I kind of agree that Veigar's stun is way too powerful to be a ability, let alone on an 8.4 second cooldown with CDR. A stun that is 2.5 seconds (longer than most actually) is kinda ridiculous for a mage. Pair that with it's ability to stun up to 5 people at once and block off damn near whole lanes and it pushes it over the top.

People also need to remember that it's not just a stun, it is a trap and a zoning tool. If you get trapped in his stun you are just as dead as you are if you got stunned.

Bring on the hate, but the nature of that ability is way too strong given it's power to zone, trap, and stun multiple people at once.

CibrecaOct 14, 20151 votes

Exactly!!!!

CrukOct 14, 20152 votes

Veigar does well versus short range mages, he also has a decent AoE stun that is not guarenteed. Other than that Riot does not look at how "broken" a champion is, they look at if the champion has counter play. Veigar has so much counter play its ridiculous, but lower elo players are locked into specific build or typically dont build to counter him. Build around veigar and hes useless.

CibrecaOct 14, 20151 votes

That's a good point, but that doesn't mean that a 887.5 range 2.5 second stun with an 1178 circumference isn't a bit OP.

Sure, he can be counter played--but the numbers don't lie. 2.5 second stun--and 3 second corralling, is OP. Nevermind his AP growth and mana regen.

Sure it can be countered--but that's presuming a 1v1. In a team fight, Veigar is no joke.

lB2kGRlc8yOct 15, 20152 votes

Veigar's team fight is just as counterable as his 1v1, people just panic stupidly when they're caught out, which is their fault in the first place. Veigar's number are incredible but every ability is reliant on an opponent fucking up with their build or their play, so if neither fuck ups occur, then he's spectacularly useless.

EndlessSorcererOct 14, 20151 votes

It's a 3 second AOE stun

Stopped reading after this; the stun scales from 1.5s to 2.5s as you rank it up.

If you can't even get its duration correct, you clearly haven't done even the most basic research.

CibrecaOct 14, 20151 votes

I approximate numbers. It's something we were told to do in math and science classes. It's actually a useful tool in calculus (i.e. taking an infinitesimally small change to determine the rate of change) and other fields of study.

Yes, it's a 2.5 second stun. But part of the reason why I approximated, was to dramatize the effect. It's a rhetorical device common in America, where people exaggerate numbers for effect. Yes it's 2.5 seconds; but I didn't realize when I wrote 3 seconds that people would want exact numbers (as if they weren't already accessible to all.)

By the way, I saw that it was 2.5 seconds--but again, I figured, for ease of math, we would deal with rounded whole numbers, to further illustrate how CD reduction compounded with the stun and its duration would make for a smaller window.

An exact mathematical model would make the effect seem less pronounced, but the margin of error for the exact model was minimal. Whether 60% of 14 is 8.4 or 8 is minimal and whether 3 is 2.5 is negligible for the discussion. 2.5 is long. 3 is longer, yes, but 2.5 is long.

Nevertheless, seeing as we should be doing exact math, I responded to Captain Rando with more exact math. :)

EndlessSorcererOct 14, 20151 votes

Approximation has a purpose when dealing with very precise values composes of a significant number of digits, but it's unnecessary in this case; it would be, at most, a three digit number. All appropriating it does is obscure details and make the information provided untrue for not actual gain.

While dramatization is a rhetorical device, it has no place in logical arguments. Dramatization is used to gain attention and to exaggerate the issue, but it isn't useful for actually discussing it.

How is 1.5 or 2.5 seconds complicated enough that you need to approximate them to simplify addition? And the margin of error is not "minimal" when you round it. To use your example, 8.4s - 8.0s is a difference of 0.4s, which would be approximately 5% of the value. Considering how significant adjusting a cooldown by 0.5s or 1s can be for a champion's performance, you can't just approximate it because you don't want to work with decimal values.

And worst his stun comes back after 14 seconds if he has no CD reduction, and 8 seconds if he does. So you have a 2 second window against Veigar--or if you dodge his stun a 5 second window.

Each approximation you use makes your information less and less accurate. Because you rounded his stun duration up by 0.5s and his cooldown down by 0.4s, your calculated window of opportunity was shortened by a second (since you even rounded that down by 0.1 seconds) (a full third of its actual value). You can't just ignore that for the sake of convenience if you are trying to make an actual argument.

That stun is more effective than most ultimates. It's a 2.5 second AOE stun that lasts 3 seconds on the map. Effectively a 5.5 second CC.

This assumes the best case scenario which will rarely ever happen in an actual game. Either the stun missed the player and they will spend three seconds inside the cage or they will be stunned for at most 2.5 seconds.

If the stun does not hit the player and a knockback doesn't drive them into it, most players are smart enough to not walk into the cage before it expires.

CibrecaOct 14, 20151 votes

Like I said, it's a habit I adopted from math and science. In that field, using precise numbers is a fool's game; outside of the field, using imprecise numbers is a fool's game. Sometimes I mistakenly write as though in that game. My mistake.

On the point of the 5.5 second CC, it's true that just being in the cage will not make the stun; but there's so much to consider. All the same, 2.5 second stun for a very long distance spell and a very wide circumference is insane.

LuggOct 14, 20151 votes

Uh, they did nerf it. Hard.

CibrecaOct 14, 20151 votes

They deservedly nerfed it. It had no delay. However this small delay now doesn't do much.

If you try to melee the Veigar, he stuns you, then kills you. Whoopty do!

If you try to chase the Veigar, he stuns you, then kills you. Whoopty do!

If you try to beat the Veigar's tower, he stuns you, then kills you . . .

If you try to defend your tower, he stuns you, then kills you . . ..

And like I said, it's a 887.5 range (sorry I wrote 1075 before). So you can't even expect to take advantage of its cooldown when you are 887.5 units away.

LuggOct 15, 20151 votes

I play against Veigar all the time and he doesn't stun me very often. The delay is definitely long enough to get out of it. At worst, you usually just get trapped inside it.

BeatzBoyFTWOct 14, 20151 votes

I remember when the Veigar change on a certain patch where his E now has a delay instead of insta-cast, everyone was crying about the random change being a "big nerf".

And now, we have this OP who cries about it. Either the delay may still be short, or that OP has no common sense on detecting the E cast at all.

OwntrolfOct 14, 20151 votes

The feels when people start talking about risk/reward while Ahri still exists

CibrecaOct 16, 20151 votes

Yeah but Ahri's charm is 2 seconds and way easier to dodge. And it plain isn't the same as a stun. Plus Ahri doesn't have Veigar damage. Veigar after a while just doesn't give a f'.

BixitsOct 15, 20151 votes

He was already nerfed this season, it's pretty sad when the cage has a delay that you can't dodge it, or at least stay in the middle or flash out. Veigar is an immobile mage...and he's squishy. If you keep getting caught repeatedly you should look at your own gameplay.