IMO Riot dug themselves into this mobility hole the moment they decided to balance around flash.

HandheldBrandon·Feb 20, 2015·7 votes·711 views

Mobility may be the problem but IMO flash is the root core cause of most of the problems we have today.

29 Comments

MrPerson10Feb 20, 20153 votes

Explain how something on a 5 minute CD is remotely considered mobility.

HandheldBrandonFeb 20, 20153 votes

Because way back when Flash didn't have a 5 minute cooldown and it use to be longer range than it is now.

It felt like Riot was balancing all champs with them taking flash in mind and immobile champs didn't seem so immobile anymore so they nerfed the immobile champs and then started making more and more mobile champs who then required more and more mobile champs to deal with them which in turn required even more mobile champs to deal with them.

Its been a long process but IMO when they decided to balance around flash they dug their own grave into where we are at today.

MrPerson10Feb 20, 20152 votes

You're going all the way back to early season 3.

Mobility isn't something that comes with summoner's spells, it never has. Darius isn't mobile because he takes flash, he's still an immobile champ. Likewise, Lee Sin doesn't become more mobile because he takes flash.

HandheldBrandonFeb 20, 20152 votes

Thats where your wrong.

If Lee Sin has flash and he whiffs his Q but he needs to get into range he can flash in and slow or he can ward jump into a flash behind an enemy that would otherwise be way out of his range into a kick. Its mobility on a 5 minute cooldown but its still extra mobility and an extra safety net if need be.

Riot has been making balance changes since season 3 right? Well all those balance changes have culminated up to this current point until the next patch comes out. Take a look at Zed for example.

If Zed goes in on a Varus and the Varus flashes out of Zeds Skillshots Zed can use his shadow to get into range and if somehow that doesn't work Zed can use flash to get into range if Zed gets caught out he can shadow out if he gets caught out again he can flash out. Zed has enough mobility but flash when its up adds to that.

This has been my personal Opinion for a long long time but if they Removed flash and rebalanced everyone with that in mind we would see far more diversity considering Riot would have to balance Melee champs with higher movespeed or stronger CC etc to lock down these incredibly hyper mobile champions which in turn would open up more picks. People would still probably pick Mobile champs but non Mobile champs with REALLY threatening CC would see alot of play as well.

MrPerson10Feb 20, 20152 votes

Flash is on a 5 minute cooldown for a reason. It's primarily an escape, and is almost always used as such.

You do realize that both Zed and Lee sin require a fair amount of skill to play well right? You do also realize that hard CC shuts them both down, particularly Zed, right?

You can use Flash/Shunpo on Kat as a massive gap close, yes, but again CC shuts her down - hence why you rarely do.

Flash doesn't change the mobility of a champ at all, for better or worse, nor was anyone balanced around it. Mobility is based off of what you can do with your kit, and also provides extremely fun kits to play around with. Being mobile in a range of what - 500 units(ish) - once every 5 minutes is far from mobile.

On that same note, you have a champion like Shaco who rarely takes flash, yet is still considered relatively mobile. Even if he took flash, it would only be for an escape and wouldn't provide anything for him over ignite/smite.

SlytherinUmbreonFeb 20, 20153 votes

Flash is on a 5 minute cooldown for a reason. It's primarily an escape, and is almost always used as such.

that's debatable. It's probably just bad word choice, I think "mostly" would have been better. Flash engages are still a big thing.

istheresomeonehardccdoesn'tshutdown? Irelia oh :o Better nerf irelia

MrPerson10Feb 20, 20152 votes

Is there someone who can consistently wreck Irelia and keep her down, even if only slightly more skilled?

Riven Better nerf Riven

HandheldBrandonFeb 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Flash is on a 5 minute cooldown for a reason. It's primarily an escape, and is almost always used as such.

You do realize that both Zed and Lee sin require a fair amount of skill to play well right? You do also realize that hard CC shuts them both down, particularly Zed, right?

You can use Flash/Shunpo on Kat as a massive gap close, yes, but again CC shuts her down - hence why you rarely do.

Flash doesn't change the mobility of a champ at all, for better or worse, nor was anyone balanced around it. Mobility is based off of what you can do with your kit, and also provides extremely fun kits to play around with. Being mobile in a range of what - 500 units(ish) - once every 5 minutes is far from mobile.

On that same note, you have a champion like Shaco who rarely takes flash, yet is still considered relatively mobile. Even if he took flash, it would only be for an escape and wouldn't provide anything for him over ignite/smite.

Look at it this way.

Think of this.

Back then who was the reigning ADC.

Ashe was.... Despite Ezreal and Corki and Tristana all having the mobility and the safety Ashe with her complete lack of mobility was the queen. Why? Because she could prevent champs from getting to her through skilled play and good mechanics and her ability to initiate for her team. She brought Utility and Safety IF you knew how to properly use it. It took a skilled player to use Ashe well and she was damn Scary when used well. Fast forward to today and Ashe is by and far the worst of the ADC's (not counting Quinn who goes top mainly). Her potential to kite is negligible considering most of the roster can completely bypass her ability to kite with multiple dashes and flash.

Back then i remember on the forums when Flash was regularly complained about that the common consensus on the forums was that people wanted Flash to be more of an offensive initiation spell. The common agreement between most people was that they wanted flash to be put on a short cooldown if you had taken any damage recently. That way it would allow people to use it in offensive and exciting ways rather than using it as an extra safety net. If Nasus gets caught with his pants down and has to flash its because he did something wrong. If Lee Sin gets caught with his pants down its because he exhausted all of his other mobility options and now has to use flash to escape.

Back then when Ashe was queen a skillful player could get to the back lines and Kill Ashe. Now all it takes is a flash and a dash and the back line becomes immediately available even if flash is down there is a ton of dashes freely available.

Ashe is considered poor by alot of people i talk to simply because she's not safe enough to play against the likes of Lucian/Graves/Tristana/Corki/any Assassin because Mobility reigns supreme and if you don't have mobility you most likely lose.

IMO that all started when Riot decided to balance around flash.

Kats PajamasFeb 20, 20151 votes

{quoted} Lee Sin doesn't become more mobile because he takes flash.

I disagree strongly. He's mobile, and also becomes more mobile.

MrPerson10Feb 20, 20151 votes

it gives him a slight edge, once every 5 minutes - yes. Doesn't make him more mobile than he already is, considering he can Q and ward hop already, doesn't need flash to do that and outplay a lot of other junglers (he isn't king of the jungle for nothing)

killd0zerFeb 20, 20152 votes

The game is balanced around Flash's existence. Champions are balanced assuming that Flash is mandatory, and will exist on 5 champions in a game.

Back in the day, Riot polled if Flash should be removed. An alternative, a boot upgrade with Flash's effect, was proposed.

They ended up keeping flash, and assumed that it would be a part of play patterns. Flash is Annie's form of initiation. She wasn't compensated for her lack of mobility, because it was assumed that she would have access to Flash.

MrPerson10Feb 20, 20151 votes

Gameplay as a thing itself is, yes, built around assuming you have flash. I can't honestly believe that the entirety of every champ is balanced around it (again LeeSin , also Zed Shaco )

It's great to assume that everyone is going to take flash, because by and large that's true - it provides a lot. However, it's much less effective to take it on champs who are already ridiculously mobile as compared to those without mobility. (Lee Sin vs Darius)

Annie also has that nice Tibbers stun, where a champ like Darius doesn't, he's almost always going to take that flash as an escape.

killd0zerFeb 20, 20151 votes

Every champ is pretty much balanced with the assumption they'll have flash, and/or their enemy will as well.

Lee Sin, Zed, and Shaco would all be significantly stronger in a game without Flash.

MrPerson10Feb 20, 20151 votes

They would be, and hell, they already are relatively strong - but the latter two also have a lot of counterplay But to be balancing the entirety of league (inclusive of Lee, Zed and Shaco) around a single summoner's spell which isn't usually taken by some champs Nasus Shaco for example, would be insane. Balancing individual kits of super low mobility champs with little to no utility, again, Darius, around flash is reasonable. I just don't see how they'd balance the entire game around flash.

I get where you're coming from, I just think eliminating it could provide a lot more for the game than keeping it if you ask me.

killd0zerFeb 20, 20151 votes

Oh I agree, Flash hurt the game more than helped. But it's pretty intrinsic to balance at this point. It would require a pretty massive rework of a lot of other game mechanics.

MrPerson10Feb 20, 20151 votes

Unfortunately, it would. There's no real way to eliminate it since we have become so reliant on it, without giving those immobile champs a massive mobility or utility buff.

As much as I hate Flash, it does add an element of gameplay that really sets a standard and a clear way for otherwise immobile champs to make Lee Sin level LC$BIGPLAY$

HandheldBrandonFeb 20, 20151 votes

Nasus has one of the most powerful CC's in the game even if he took Ghost wither more than makes up for it considering it can have a 94 percent up time with a common nasus build. Most shaco's i See don't take flash because they opt to have a more aggressive early game gank with ignite to nearly guarantee that first blood. But i do see Nasus take flash as well.

You know who doesn't really need flash.

Rammus.

But he takes it anyways because it gives him the ability to flash taunt which is fine but at the same time it allows him to escape almost inescapable situations that he might get himself into. If a player puts themselves into a situation they can't get out of then they shouldn't be able to get out of it.

I still have the belief that flash is a crutch and without it you would honestly see alot of better players fall down in rank due to losing that extra safety net.

MrPerson10Feb 20, 20151 votes

Rammus.

But he takes it anyways because it gives him the ability to flash taunt which is fine but at the same time it allows him to escape almost inescapable situations that he might get himself into. If a player puts themselves into a situation they can't get out of then they shouldn't be able to get out of it.

I've honestly in 5 years played Rammus all of..maybe twice, only because of ARAM. Never been a fan of his kit, he feels like a mechanically strange Skarner to me without the damage.

I still have the belief that flash is a crutch and without it you would honestly see alot of better players fall down in rank due to losing that extra safety net.

10000000 points to you, good sir.

HandheldBrandonFeb 20, 20151 votes

That doesn't bother you?

That Flash is pretty much required?

So Riot balances around the assumption that every champ will take flash, which then in turn makes flash a requirement to have in order to best utilize your champ and in turn causes other summoner spells to be unused except in very specific scenarios in which ghost is better?

That's proves my point that Riot dug themselves into this mobility rut because not only did they balance around flash but they balanced around it so much that they made it a requirement to have if you want to be competitive or have a chance. That by its very design is a poor way of balancing things.

MrPerson10Feb 20, 20151 votes

I don't think it's required, honestly.

Here's the champs I've very rarely or never taken flash on: Akali Alistar LeeSin Nocturne Olaf Shaco Nasus Warwick Zed Fiddlesticks

While, yes, they could be used effectively with it, I've found that in a mass majority of games flash just isn't as effective as other options with decent decision making and usage of their individual kits.

HandheldBrandonFeb 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't think it's required, honestly.

Here's the champs I've very rarely or never taken flash on:

While, yes, they could be used effectively with it, I've found that in a mass majority of games flash just isn't as effective as other options with decent decision making

For one for most cows to be on a competitive level they absolutely require flash to setup certain fights.

Warwick takes flash for flash Ult.

Fiddlesticks same reason as Warwick or to flash fear.

Every single one of those champs in higher tier play take flash except for maybe Olaf but you rarely see him anyways.

95 percent of my games 10 players take flash.

Akali doesn't need flash but she takes it anyway.

Zed and lee don't need flash but they take it anyways because more mobility why the hell not.

Shaco can take it if he wants and he becomes even more difficult to catch when its up.

3 of those champs absolutely require flash to be at their complete best and the rest of them take it anyways because more mobility is never a bad thing for them.

MrPerson10Feb 20, 20151 votes

I've found that while yes, certain times it's reasonable to take it on most of those champs - I tend not to.

Usually easy enough to set up an ult on WW without needing to flash, I usually take ignite/smite here same with shaco.

I've never taken flash on Zed outside of an AP lane, just don't like it when I could ignite/exhaust vs a melee lane like Talon.

fiddle has a flash mechanic built into his ult, hence why I don't take it. Again, ignite/smite seems more effective.

In the pro scene, almost everyone takes flash because they can make great plays and know how and when to use it effectively in nearly every scenario, and of course to be at their best. Though I've found that my playstyle with those champs simply isn't aggressive enough to warrant taking flash, so I don't.

HandheldBrandonFeb 20, 20152 votes

If you are playing Warwick with no flash in plat at least then you lose an incredible amount of power and open yourself up to huge telegraphing. If an enemy sees you waltzing into their team to try and ult their carry you will be dead before you can do anything.

people take flash because offensively it allows them to suprise them enemy however flash has and always has been used more defensively because Riot balanced around it being used that way along with some offensive uses.

Fiddle has a flash mechanic on his ult yes but most fids don't ult in range of a team they ult over a wall and then flash into the middle of the team. Not having lfash on fid means that if you ult over the wall anr the enemy rteam isn't in range they will just walk away from you.

MrPerson10Feb 20, 20151 votes

I rarely pick WW, and when I do, I honestly never use him as the initial engage, always secondary. If I'm jungling and don't have two other strong engages, I'm likely on Pantheon - not only is he more fun for me personally, but I also think he stands out as a far superior jungle (especially given his early edge)

And on the fiddle point, you have a good one. I'll consider taking Flash with him, Just never needed to in the past.

HandheldBrandonFeb 21, 20151 votes

Hi i decided to be snoopy and check up on your stats using LOLking.

It appears you enjoy using clarity now not to be rude but someone who actively uses clarity on annie rather than ignite (which gives annie 100 percent guaranteed kill power when its up) i struggle to take your advice at any level of play.

Now you may be doing it for fun but for full efficiency purposes i feel you may be lacking in the know how of it.

Again i am not trying to pick on you but i have been around a long time and in my spare time with friends theory craft things with them (we have a group that gets together and plays and theory crafts) and we actively do this so i feel we may have a slight better understanding of the game than you do at least on a competitive level.

MrPerson10Feb 21, 20151 votes

Check again, that was ARAM. You'll also notice this account has never been ranked, it's simply to try out new champs to me on.

Edit: on a competitive level, I've ranked two accounts to Platinum I and am in series with one of them to Diamond V.

I'm not saying I'm the best player, far from it - my decision making skills need massive improvement, especially when jungling, as does my map awareness in the mid-late game need some more improvement. However, I have more than a decent understanding of the game, and would literally never take clarity onto the rift.

ValyrianBladeFeb 20, 20151 votes

Arguably, wouldn't flash on a super immobile champion make a bigger difference than flash on a super mobile champion?

Basically, if an immobile champion gets caught out, they NEED flash or else they get destroyed. If a mobile champion like Zed gets caught out, he uses his W or something. Flash is just like a back-up plan.

The point I'm making is, let's say Flash is worth 30 'mobility points'. So if a champion with 5 'mobility points' takes flash and a champion with 40 'mobility points' takes Flash, we just changed the latter from being 8x more mobile to being 2x more mobile. Or regardless of what flash is worth, if they're both gaining a flat boost then in relative percent terms the gap is closing.

Unless you're of the opinion that the double mobility allows huge plays that single mobility can't provide - which is definitely true (e.g. jump wall in to dragon/baron, then flash back out after the steal), however these opportunities don't come up as often as the need for single-mobility uses are needed.

BluePolarizerFeb 20, 20151 votes

If flash wasn't around, they could make immobile champs actually good, like give brand 75% AP scaling and Annie 90% AP scaling, give Darius higher base armor/MR/MS, give Ashe stronger slows, etc.

Then it'll be a clear tradeoff: should I have teamwipe level AOE damage, but 100% die if I get caught, or do I want safety, for the tradeoff of doing much less damage?

IcyPepperFeb 20, 20151 votes

You know, the other day I was smurfing to play with my lower level friend (but I didn't pubstomp noobs, I tried to be nice), it was interesting to have nobody with flash. It was more diverse and fun because other spells ARE useful, but this meta revolves around flash, flash, teleport, flash, smite, flash, flash, heal, flash, exhaust, and did I mention flash?

I saw a ghost once. ONCE.