Swains scaling mana cost and ability costs are completely detrimental to his gameplay.

HandheldBrandon··37 votes·2,975 views

I have been a long time Swain player and back in the day when his ulti and healing were stronger i definitely felt like the scaling mana cost was a fair thing. However now in an age where most mids have reasonable costs to their spells Swain is on the opposite side with an ultimate that forces you to build completely and utterly around it.

I don't mean that lightly.

Even with his passive and proper last hitting his ultimate will undo minutes of work in seconds by just having it on at all. Not only that but the primary time to use it is when you are being attacked or are attacking and because of the scaling mana cost having it on means you focus less and less on playing and more and more on micromanaging your Mana.

That doesn't even factor in the fact that he has the highest mana cost base skills in the game with Decrepify at 100 mana and Nevermove at 120 at max rank with Torment at 85 mana.

I feel like Swain should lose the scaling mana and have the rest of his mana costs reduced considering all his damage is Over time and he has to be incredibly close to do it unlike brand (who btw is doing excellent right now).

TLDR : Swain's mana costs are too high specifically his ultimates scaling mana cost for how much risk he has to deal with and the fact that his damage is over time and not upfront bursty.

[{quoted}](name=Buff Jax please,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=wAo88lka,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-02-04T15:21:13.104+0000)

Malzahar has the highest base mana costs in the game, 100+ on every skill, 430 in total.

You are correct but Malz's E pretty much makes that a moot point since he can drop it in a wave kill a few minions and nearly get the mana cost back making the ACTUAL mana cost far less than what it is.

51 Comments

Remlap122320 votes

Oh darn, you can't just fire and forget your ultimate. His ultimate having that high of a mana cost is literally his only gate from being permabanned, let's be honest.

I know I'm going to get downvoted to hell, but until he gets his rework, that's quite literally only what's keeping him in check. It's the only reason why he's still so weak right now.

Mimaropa2 votes

If anyone fought against a 2nd item Rylai swain, its horrible. The perma slow will destroy any melee top laners.

Baron of Bread3 votes

Doesn't work against bursty top laners, they can kill him before he can kill them.

Melledoneus2 votes

Fiora "Did yoo zay... anyvon?"

HandheldBrandon1 votes

If he had a mana cost on his ulti that costsed 25-35-50 mana per sec instead of 25+5-6-7 per second he would feel alot better.

As it stands now he just turns on his ulti and is forced to turn it off after 3-4 seconds otherwise he ends up blowing through his mana pool extremely fast. Tear on Swain is awful because he doesn't spam his spells and it would take way too long for him to get the stacks so hes left with ROA as an example to add to his mana pool. After that he either builds more mana or focuses on building more mana regen to counteract his costs which are drastically high and far less game changing than most of the lower cost abilities out there.

The main thing i see keeping him in check is honestly his short range and his need to build expensive items to complement his build. Unlike say Brand who has the AOE and burst damage to go along with his Damage over time Swain is literally all damage over time and requires him to be at a range that would make most mages uncomfortable which makes his play all the more risky.

Silents4291 votes

Even still, I play Swain A LOT and don't have the mana problems being described by OP

He is hella strong.

ItsCalledALance11 votes

Anivia YOU have mana problems with your ult???

Count Zubat1 votes

At least she has some range and huge burst from E while Swain charges into middle of enemy team.

NichtHurz1 votes

I feel like Anivia's mana is a lot easier to manage and the way the rest of her kit works makes heavy mana expenditure in a short time more effective than Swain's kit does. Of course he can still kill people pretty fast, but he needs to come close to do so and his chances to retreat are pretty bad afterwards since he consumes insane amounts of mana to go in and get back out when there are other enemies around.

Baron of Bread2 votes

As someone who plays both, Swain is much worse. For wave clear Anivia doesn't need to leave her ult on as long since it hurts all of the minions, Swain's only hits 3 per second and doesn't even kill the minions in one hit (unless really fed). For teamfights Swain can't turn off his ult and live with the 7 seconds cooldown on it so he has to deal with the full mana cost ramp up, Anivia can turn her's on and off nearly at will and not have any significant issues.

3TWarrior1 votes

don't forget to mention that anivia's passive gives her a second life bar every 5 minutes (though not op, it is something swain doesn't have for his terrible early game )

Melledoneus1 votes

Zed "What's 'mana?' Is it a resource?" LeeSin "What's a 'resource?' Is that another mechanic added to my ult?" Ekko "...I hate you two so much right now."

3TWarrior1 votes

Zed : I love death timers...seeing them and their summoner scream in futility! Balance is weakness!

Ekko : What's a death timer?

(XD )

ItsCalledALance2 votes

{quoted}

Zed "What's 'mana?' Is it a resource?" LeeSin "What's a 'resource?' Is that another mechanic added to my ult?" Ekko "...I hate you two so much right now."

Karthus Try having an ult, that is easily cancelled, cost a chunk of mana, on a long cooldown and usually only usable after you're dead.

Malzahar Shut up you.

Pantheon OK GUYS IM HERE!!1....guys? hello? where did everyone go?

Abyssphere9 votes

I'd rather they just reduce the costs on his other abilities than his ultimate. But I'm not going for a whole "let's cut all Swain's mana costs in half with no other changes!" movement to be quite honest. He's not terrible.

QQinfinity5 votes

I agree.

And I would like to add a point that, his ultimate is his trademark. With the current meta and play style, the scaling mana cost is killing him. For example, if I were a Swain and played against a team full of highly mobile champions. Even if they can't kill me, all they need to do is dance all around the map and wait for me to run out of mana!

So personally I believe making his ultimate mana cost being able to 'reset' after a kill is pretty important. Actually, it doesn't even need a full reset. "If Swain gains a kill or assist, reduce the mana cost of this ability by half", and then let the stacking mana cost stack after it was cut in half.Even something as measly as a not-quite-kill/assist-reset function can go a very long way.

Lady Hammerlock2 votes

{quoted}

I agree.

And I would like to add a point that, his ultimate is his trademark. With the current meta and play style, the scaling mana cost is killing him. For example, if I were a Swain and played against a team full of highly mobile champions. Even if they can't kill me, all they need to do is dance all around the map and wait for me to run out of mana!

So personally I believe making his ultimate mana cost being able to 'reset' after a kill is pretty important. Actually, it doesn't even need a full reset. "If Swain gains a kill or assist, reduce the mana cost of this ability by half", and then let the stacking mana cost stack after it was cut in half.Even something as measly as a not-quite-kill/assist-reset function can go a very long way.

possibly rather then that maybe when he is in ult form champions give double the mana from his passive? anyways the highest set of mana costs isn't swain its Malzahar I'm talking base mana costs

he was completely gutted after that utility nerf and a touch up to his ult would help considering he already suffers from abysmal wave clear,no mobility and other things

Titanium701 votes

lol! Get a RoA and never run OOM! I know what I'm talking about - I play him alot recently.

As Swain you can run OOM no matter what you build! Even with two Mana-Items you can drain your entire pool if you dont get a kill.

Sypher The Poro1 votes

Swain also can't just roll his fingers across the keyboard for a kill post 6. Malzahar also has a mana return on his E (Which is friken immune to QSS and GP oranges).

Imagine a Malzahar that can spam his spells all lane, your tower would be down in 5 minutes due to his wave clear and passive minions.

His early game wave clear is better than Lux.

kile1471 votes

Nah bro, Viktor has the best waveclear.

Sypher The Poro1 votes

Agreed. He one-shots your wave with his Uber laser and goes back to blowing you ul.

Baron of Bread1 votes

He actually gets a large percent of his mana pool back on champion kills/assists. It is the only reason he can keep his ult up in a fight but it requires enemies to start going down pretty quickly, so he isn't as effective against high tank metas. Of course, he isn't that great in high assassin metas because they can blow him up fast enough that his healing can't save him.

Hypochondria95 votes

If I'm jungling and have a Swain I will give him every blue buff because the only thing stopping him from being an absolute monster is his mana costs.

Ionian4 votes

No. Gut him until he gets the full rework he needs.

The Bíg Ticket4 votes

Malzahar has the highest base mana costs in the game, 100+ on every skill, 430 in total.

Baron of Bread3 votes

Don't forget that his E refunds a huge amount of mana if managed properly, which is a lot easier than last hitting as Swain.

Saianna3 votes

Just wanna say than Lissandra has the same.. Low cooldown Q screams "spam me SPAM ME NOW", while mana costs (80!!!!!) are like "dude u gonna be dry in a second"

All because totally retarded passive that works against her.

Just imagine if Voliber had 300 HP less at the start just cause his passive heals him.

YossarianSensei3 votes

Wut

Swain's ridiculous OPness is only gated by his Mana

3TWarrior1 votes

and the fact that he is either only a counter pick or a pseudo-top laner with his low-range spells?

Swain's good matchups are against squishies that enjoy close range (talon(though not a good idea), katarina, yasuo, maybe fizz? but too many mids can end him easily)

in top lane, he outranges and is quite the bruiser, but he doesn't have the stats to stat-check his melee opponents

YossarianSensei1 votes

He already has extremely strong matchups now

But how would anybody trade with him ever if he could just spam his Ult in lane?

Xela Syab2 votes

My issue with swain is that he has no waveclear pre 6.

Arsenic Sulfur2 votes

He has barely any post 6. His ult costs too much to be effective wave clear, even with passive.

Jefftiffy2 votes

No mana buffs for Swain until they remove him being able to use his ult during Zhonya's.

kile1471 votes

On the plus side, his ult doesn't keep going if you polymorph him.

Strawberrycocoa2 votes

Better give the same nerf to Fiddlesticks Morgana and Kennen, then

Swerzz2 votes

I agree, it's horrible. But remember URF mode? Did you play as swain during URF mode? If Swain had even a 10th of that capability by reducing his mana costs, I would cry in a corner with all the lights turned, with a bible in one hand and a cross in the other.

HandheldBrandon1 votes

If i had my way (and obviously i wont) I would change swain entirely to be a control mage. He has the CC and his E would make a great support tool if it functioned that way.

Personally if i could change him i would make him more into a support because At this time thats where he best fits IMO.

Keep his Q the same Keep his W the same (maybe might need to be changed) Change his E to make it so the target takes increased damage rather than just increasing Swains damage alone. Change his Ult to function like an AOE version of his E and heal swain the more people that come into his range (Think 5 people would sustain Swain in a fight. ( I just came up with the Ulti on the fly so don't hate).

Obviously they can't keep the same numbers that they have now but that would be a quick idea of something i would rather do.

Basically make him an enemy debuffer and increase the damage his allies do as that fits my idea of a tactician.

SkyKiryon2 votes

I'm gonna have to disagree here... Been playing Swain for a long time and while mana CAN become an issue in very drawn out fights, it's the only thing that keeps him remotely balanced. Do you build archangel/athene/ROA? I very rarely go for Athene, but I find that an early tear and rushing ROA more than takes care of his mana issues. Also consider the fact that you might be overusing his ult, it's not meant to be on 24/7.

HandheldBrandon1 votes

It is of course your right to disagree but you are buying Archangel to compensate for his high mana costs right?

Also to give yourself that extra staying power in fights which is what i am saying by forcing you to dedicate part of your build to alleviate his drastic mana issues. ROA is a given but Archangels emphasizes just how high the costs actually are.

I myself (Haven't done it in a long time as i rarely rarely play him any more but i prefer a more tanky build with ROA, Liandrys, Ryalis, Spirit Visage, and Lucidity boots as it gives him a decent amount of health and sustain but keeps enough of his items to amp his damage a bit. The last 2 are purely based on need but if it can be helped i prefer a more control oriented build with the ability to pop off his cooldowns at a faster pace as that fits my idea of a tactician.

SkyKiryon1 votes

I'm quite of fan of the tankier Swain as well. He's just not meant to be a glass cannon, imo. It's true that with lower mana costs, I might not choose to build archangel, but I still find it to be a pretty good item and it's a payoff I'm willing to accept, but I can see your point

Strawberrycocoa1 votes

Swain is great, I love him to pieces. But I'm pretty convinced that he's not going to be touched anytime soon because they are planning a full relaunch. Just my conspiracy theory.

Metalrichdog1 votes

Well, I can't say I agree completely with removing the scaling mana (Probably because my mind doesn't like to see Swain), but a reduction in the costs of his spells should be done. I've played him in the past and used to find him to be rather strong if ahead, but if he's about even he usually just goes heavily OOM just from his ult in duels. Additionally, if he's behind, he literally has no ability to keep up with his mana costs to fight.

KoggyStyle1 votes

i feel ya, ww main.... dont expect much love for swain in the future

Miraweave1 votes

Umm... what?

Mana is literally the only thing that keeps swain remotely balanced. He would be hilariously broken with lower costs.

HandheldBrandon1 votes

He has such a weak early game and any champion with any mobility early game will stomp him.

Also champs who can easily shove waves can take advantage of Swains awful auto animation to force him to try and compete with tower.

SkyKiryon1 votes

Farming under turret as Swain is not that hard if you know how much damage turret deals and his early game really isn't all that terrible considering Q+E AND autos can actually take away a decent chunk of hp.

HandheldBrandon1 votes

Even with understanding that Swain has a very long auto attack animation (IMO a very shitty one too) and very little waveclear so someone who can rapidly shove creeps into his tower will have almost nothing to fear from him and can freely roam to other lanes before he can even clear a wave.

J E B A ł T E D1 votes

Swain needs some tuning, I like how his kit works but he is just too far nerfed, and all for the wrong reasons.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I have played a LOT of Swain the past two seasons (working on my third with high play rates on him), and I don't agree with you.

With RoA, I have enough mana. I am able to go hourglass and either spirit visage or liandry's torment for third item most games, and I generally don't have mana problems. And I don't think about micromanaging mana that much either. That doesn't mean I NEVER run out of mana; it means I run out of mana in long fights where my team wasn't able to secure kills, and that's probably healthy and good for his gameplay.

I respect your opinion and I don't mean to start an argument; I just think there is value in peaceable disagreement. I think his mana costs are reasonable. Maybe not perfect, but close. Close enough to allow me to feel like I am free to play my champ the way I want and be effective. Are they a little high? Yeah, for how much power he lost recently from DFT nerfs and W nerfs, but he could get buffs back in those places and not need changes to mana. I guess, to me, that makes it feel like mana isn't the main issue.

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