What if Karthus could move while using Q? (Lay Waste)

Avios1·Nov 8, 2016·36 votes·2,739 views

As he isn't the strongest right now, with a 200 second ult, while syndra gets to freely move while casting Q (W? might be E as well.) and her ult as well, which nukes an enemy champion pretty harshly.

I also believe that it is pretty hard to catch up to people with Karthus due to the cast time, and it isn't the most reliable spell to hit.

I am just posting this as a speculation/suggestion thread, please don't reply with "OMGFFG KARTHUS GON B SO BR0K3N BCUZ H3 CIN MOOOVE AND CASHT Q", please leave something that is constructive.

EDIT: I heard an idea that I thought was pretty nice, which works out like this:

When Karthus casts Defile (e) He can cast Lay Waste (q) without a cast time (which means he can move and cast), which can fix a problem of him being overbearing because of being able to spam Q at early levels without regards for his E.

53 Comments

XPhantomBusterXNov 8, 20167 votes

If she can still move while casting Q, she would be a little better but not an god tier pick. I would feel that this would be a step in the right direction. However, adding this wouldn't do much. If she could move when casting her Q, it just gives her a little bit more mobility. I really don't see any problems with this idea however, so why not?

Avios1Nov 8, 201618 votes

Other than the fact that you kept calling Karthus a her, and I have been heavily http://i.imgur.com/wnIaRyJ.gif?noredirect , I thank you for replying, means a lot ^.^

XPhantomBusterXNov 8, 20163 votes

Oh oops. You're welcome tho.

Meep ManNov 8, 20166 votes

I am afraid of buffing Karthus' Q in anyway since it is arguably one of the most powerful DPS spells in the game.

Avios1Nov 8, 20163 votes

It can be, but there are 2 factors that need to be in place:

1.) The target has to be singled out (hard to do if they are grouped up)

2.) Target has to move into/be in the small range (Which isn't hard to kite).

And considering his wall has a decaying slow, It just isn't a reliable DPS source compared to someone like Cass or Synd.

Meep ManNov 8, 20163 votes

That would be true if it wasn't for item 3116 which essentially makes landing one Q guarantee a barrage of Qs unless the target gets help. Plus, I would rather have more Mages like how Karthus currently is than how Cass currently is (my middle finger is broken), in that you can miss the main DPS spell.

Avios1Nov 8, 20162 votes

item 3116 is a strong item and helps with landing Q's I can admit, but it is still difficult to land them against anyone who can kite well because of how small it is, otherwise I would agree with you at this point as well.

Meep ManNov 9, 20161 votes

Once they change item 3116 for the better, then this might be a good idea.

RocketRelmNov 8, 20163 votes

First, they're removing/nerfing Rylais. Second, http://imgur.com/a/D7TX5

Meep ManNov 9, 20161 votes

Be very careful how you compare things considering the difference in how much AP and AD you can get

Fondling GemsNov 9, 20161 votes

Crit more than nullifies that difference considering that Karthus only has a 60% Q scaling on a target by itself, and the ability can be juked, even while you are slowed. Karthus Q also has about the same delay and range as an Auto attack.

That being said I would prefer any balancing on Karthus to be done in a different area than Q. I would like to see his Ult damage take a knocking but it have about the same cd as most ults. Something like:

Requiem: CD: ~~200/180/160~~ >> 160/130/100 Damage: ~~250/400/550 + (60% AP)~~ >> 200/325/450 + (40% or 50% AP)

Cutting 40-60 seconds off it's cd in exchange for 50-100 flat damage and a 10-20% scaling nerf would solidify his ability to be global presence that is up often enough to actually be a threat, but make it so that you have to get quite a bit lower for it to kill. It would also reduce his incentive to pop it when they are just doing baron as it poses less of a threat, really making it something that applies a lot of pressure, but isn't as threatening from a damage standpoint.

Considering how many ways there are to deny it now it really doesn't feel very influential. What is the point of it doing a ton of damage if you can block it with item actives more often than it comes up?

Dabrick01Nov 8, 20164 votes

OMGFFG KARTHUS GON B SO BR0K3N BCUZ H3 CIN MOOOVE AND CASHT Q!

Avios1Nov 8, 20161 votes

B3T I TEENK THAT HHE CAHN FITE 1V24 BCUZ MUUVING IZ KEENG

Dabrick01Nov 8, 20161 votes

I'm not gonna pretend that I can type like that.

Have I become too smart?

Avios1Nov 8, 20161 votes

Oh no, they're getting smarter, prepare the Logic train!

Critmaster GarenNov 8, 20164 votes

i think the right buff for him would be to add the grounded debuff to his wall.

he needs tools to deal with hypermobile champions to not get completely destroyed by them. what he doesnt need is ways to kite low mobility champions better than he already does.

making him able to cast his q while moving will make little difference for mobile champions who outmaneuver and catch up with him. but it will make him a nightmare to face for anyone who isnt exceptionally mobile.

i think karthus should have more emphasis on success or failure when it comes to skillful placement of his wall. giving him the cassiopeia treatment and having enemies additionally grounded while stuck, and slowed by the wall would accomplish that.

nice tableNov 8, 20163 votes

i mean "OMGFFG KARTHUS GON B SO BR0K3N BCUZ H3 CIN MOOOVE AND CASHT Q" is about as constructive as its going to get with a suggestion this retarded, karthus already has a positive win ratio "hurr durr onry his meins pley him pls", no he has a positive win ratio with any amount of games played the exceeds 3. and this would be a massive buff to karthus so ya know.

Avios1Nov 8, 20162 votes

In which I might add that Urgot and Galio have high winrates as well, but they are about as popular as a rock, along with Karthus (although being slightly more popular). It is still clear that many people who actually experience a good win ratio with Karthus ends up being around 50+ games, which is its peak. However, you can argue that Urgot and Galio have a positive win ratio, therefore they need a nerf, which is simply not true.

Karthus is still mostly played by mains, but he also has a low skill floor and low ceiling as it seems, because Karthus mains with over 100+ games tend to drop (even slightly) than people who have about 50 games, which indicates that there is something odd going on if people who play him experience worse win rates than people who play him every once and a while.

This is simply a suggestion for a love-tap to Karthus, as he hasn't been performing the best, especially with his ult cooldown (200 second lvl 1) being so outrageous that others can cast theirs 2-3 times before Karthus casts his again.

nice tableNov 8, 20162 votes

id like to point out that the only people who really have a positive win ratio with urgot are the mains. galio on the other hand is a super strong counter pick to some champions and is used as such which causes the decent win ratio, the people who play him as a "main" actually have a really bad win ratio since his only good as a counter.

now karthus on the other hand is a quite easy champion that everyone does well with, what comes to his win ratio getting worse as games played goes up this is usually the case for simple champions - this is caused by people mastering the champion fast and gaining elo without their game knowledge catching up and not being able to learn much more about the champion.

QuephaNov 8, 20163 votes

{quoted}

he isn't the strongest right now

But he's still very strong. No reason to buff a strong champion and make them overpowered.

Avios1Nov 8, 20165 votes

{quoted}

But he's still very strong. No reason to buff a strong champion and make them overpowered.

cough LeeSin cough

BoilTheOilNov 9, 20161 votes

not for long ehem edge of night i mean edge of cancer

bill84Nov 9, 20161 votes

Jayce If only

nm1010Nov 8, 20162 votes

You are really underestimating the power of karthus being able to dodge while shooting off q. The cast time is short and opens up a way to punish him for just spamming q nonstop instead of weaving in movement.

Avios1Nov 8, 20162 votes

Its not being able to dodge after casting q, after all, I've done it. But I just don't see a reason not to pick Syndra over Karthus, as Syndra can spam q nonstop and has far more mobility than Karthus.

Big LincolnNov 8, 20161 votes

because karthus still exists after he gets killed and can contribute globally

Avios1Nov 8, 20161 votes

And Sion still exists as a meatshield (and does 10% max hp damage per auto) after he is killed, which also can contribute pretty well In a teamfight.

nm1010Nov 8, 20161 votes

Really lol? Maybe the teamwide ult, giant aoe fuck you zone, the being able to do damage after death, the 80% slow on his wall + the 15% mpen, or maybe the fact his q has a .5 sec cd compared to a 4 second cd with the same damage?

Avios1Nov 8, 20165 votes

I can try to make a champion sound overpowered too, lets try it!

Can use all 6 spots for AP items Has an AoE DoT that speeds her up can slow everyone in the area by 80% Can also make sure people can't dash in said ability Has a Targeted ability on a .75 cooldown that refunds mana on kill and deals more damage/heals herself when on poisioned targets Can nuke the enemy team and also stun/slow for 2 seconds

And, you guessed it, Cassiopeia

Realistically, Karthus is underpowered even with all of the tools in his kit that you mentioned, the ult cd screws him over, and simply can't go toe-to-toe against Syndra, in a 1v1 or a teamfight, because she has hard CC built into her kit and a single-target nuke on a lower cooldown.

nm1010Nov 8, 20161 votes

Its not making it sound overpowered, you said you don't see a reason to pick karthus over syndra. All of the things I listed are things karthus brings over syndra. Basically a much stronger team champion that has weaker laning.

Not to mention stats wise the main points syndra beats karthus at is play rate, ban rate, and killing spree. They both run high deaths, but karthus does nearly 25% more damage and similar kills per game.

It could be the high pick rate after worlds, but syndra is actually performing much worse currently than karthus. Maybe worry more about answering your question rather than trying* to sound smart.

VarnocNov 8, 20162 votes

Maybe worry more about answering your question rather than trying* to sound smart.

Wait, what?

nm1010Nov 8, 20161 votes

He tried to make it seem like I was saying Karthus was overpowered when I wasn't. He then went on a tirade about how you can make champions sound op by naming random stuff on Cassiopeia

Blackstone01Nov 8, 20161 votes

Each role update he becomes increasingly phased out in what he does. Other mages counter him, marksmen have more ways to survive his ult with MR options, assassins downright stomp him, and are even getting a new item that screams "Karthus counter".

nm1010Nov 8, 20161 votes

I believe that riot has stated if the new item hurts karthus too much they would look at compensation buffs.

Leo1024Nov 8, 20162 votes

Yeah I find it super hard to lane as karthus because last hitting is such a struggle, his only good abilities are his ult and his Q and the ult is on an incredibly long cooldown, yeah you could use the wall to increase Q damage but if they're anywhere near minions it won't do jack shit, imo he needs a rework, his autos do no damage, only good abilities are Q and ult, his mana costs are abysmal, and he's so squishy and slow even compared to other mages

Avios1Nov 8, 20162 votes

I do believe he needs a rework, but this would be a love tap I would think.

VarnocNov 8, 20162 votes

Removal of the cast time on his Q does a couple of interesting things:

CDR becomes far more valuable; Because you're not stopping yourself each time you cast Lay Waste, and therefore putting yourself at risk of being smacked by any number of skillshot, you're put at less of a disadvantage for making full use of it.
Basic attacks become usable. This must be considered when making such a change, as it will, in most every scenario once practiced, increase DPS by a small amount.
Makes him more "Mobile". Not really a bad thing, in my opinion, since Karthus is so reliant on kiting enemies, buffing his intended strengths isn't a bad thing.

As for only allowing it to be used without a cast time during Defile, in addition to the above:

Causes a natural ramp-up towards the mid-game when Karthus has a few mana items in his inventory (Tear, RoA, Morello, etc.), as the mana battery allows him to make full use of the mechanic
Allows higher level of mastery to Karthus players, the ability to pulse Defile for cast-time free Lay Wastes would be an essential trick in higher divisions.
Turning Defile on would increase Karthus's DPS by allowing him to weave autos freely.

What it really comes down to is this: does it add to the gameplay for both sides? Maybe. It really will all come down to what Riot does with Ryali's, because if Karthus is allowed to chain 0.6 second Lay Wastes on a target with free movement, there's going to be problems.

I think that if Karthus is in a worse spot after the the Ryali's nerfs (and I think we all know he will be), this would be a good buff to him to compensate, without going overboard on things.

a special oneNov 9, 20162 votes

karthus is completely fine

cheoekarNov 8, 20161 votes

I feel that if you his aa animation was changed so it wasnt so clunky trading and csing would be alot better cuz atm his aa is so clunky that i find it hard to do both

Avios1Nov 8, 20162 votes

I wholeheartedly agree here as well, his aa animation sucks for everything haha.

Don SpaghettiNov 8, 20161 votes

Thats as great an idea as letting Cass move during her E, and wouldn't really change any of Karthus' problems. It'd just make him incredibly overbearing to play against should he get ahead early, which would just lead to other parts of his kit getting nerfed because you can't give a late game carry an oppressive earlygame (ie: Azir).

Karthus doesn't really need any changes. Maybe slightly more base hp but that's about it. He's in a good spot right now, just don't pick him into awful matchups. The guy can hold his own against champions he out ranges and most mages, should you be able to dodge their cc. Just don't go picking him into assassins.

A DoorknobNov 8, 20161 votes

Personally I find Karth is in a good spot in term of being balanced. Karthus in terms of carrying is considered a hyper carry Ap champ. Karthus already has enough going on for him; an INSANELY strong slow, a ridiculously strong global ult, a Q with 3 second cd at all levels and an E that hurts like a bitch. Adding movement to his Q would be too strong simply because Rylais exist and due to the fact that he already has a slow. Enjoy and learn to play him effectively. Just farm with Q and wait for ganks and have huge map awareness for when to push R. He doesn't need a buff. Just learn to predict enemy movement. If Riot were to buff him, they would eventually gut him because that is how they balance champs. 1 extreme to the next and then claim he needs a rework when he does not.

Wolfram OxfordNov 8, 20161 votes

This would fuck me up when I play Karthus, sorry but no.

BLACK REALM GODNov 8, 20161 votes

meh. they could nerf him into the ground. as long as i have a chance at doing 1 damage more than whatever the maximum healing per 5 second tick is on any given itemization combination to every member of the enemy team for a free pentakill i'll continue to play karthus. nothing's funnier than stealing a kill from the altar.

edit

besides. he's unliving. Graves mean nothing to shadow isle champions thanks to the yorick rework

LatetotheRaceNov 8, 20161 votes

Oddly enough Karthus is still objectively strong, letting him do this would be a huge mistake.

OwynNov 8, 20161 votes

Karthus? what year is this?... I think everybody just forgot about Karthus... [slayer-jinx-unamused]

Avios1Nov 8, 20161 votes

You mean this dude right here? Urgot

TeCoolMageNov 9, 20161 votes

"OMGFFG KARTHUS GON B SO BR0K3N BCUZ H3 CIN MOOOVE AND CASHT Q"

EDIT: GOD DAMNIT JUST WENT DOWN THE COMMENT SECTION

Avios1Nov 9, 20161 votes

Eh, I'll keep it up in spirit.

"B3T I TEENK THAT HHE CAHN FITE 1V24 BCUZ MUUVING IZ KEENG"

DunkinNoobsNov 9, 20161 votes

Being able to move while casting a spell is extremely powerful and the champs that can do so have a very specific reason for it. Namely: Syndra's Q and Vels W. Syndra's Q so her short range doesn't completely cripple her against longer ranged opponents and Vel's W so he actually has a prayer of kiting melee champions.