Boards›Gameplay

Why AP Bruisers Don't Work

Frosted Tips··1 votes·2,789 views

I know Swain works but he is really the only one. Vladimir is a sustain and burst mage and the rest suck.

I know item 3071 isn't good right now due to conqueror and the game being overloaded with upfront damage, but AP champions do not have an item like it. This is problematic because if an AP Brusier is going to be useful then they need to be able to fight and kill tanks and other bruisers. AP Bruisers are forced to build item 3135 to deal damage to them which is such a bad item on AP Bruisers.Also, item 3151 is not nearly good enough to compete with % penetration.

I suggest we make an AP item kinda like black cleaver but the penetration. Is on useful on the person who bought it. The item would be sorta like:

Whip of Coruption

item 3916 + item 3067

Health - 400-500
Ability Power - 40-50
Cooldown Reduction - 10%
Unique Passive - Gain Penetration based off of unique spell cast with magic damage stacks up to 4 times. 5/10/20/30%

Penetration only for the user not the team. It isn't mr shred. So a little different than Black Cleaver.

What do you guys think would this help would it be to strong or weak? Also, I know like nothing about item balance so these are super ruff numbers.

47 Comments

HaIlMonitor4 votes

The actual reason is because if you look at champs like Diana who was supposed to be a fighter, she has to pick between damage or tanky, and can't do both. Fighters on the other hand have their Trifecta of items that give them tanky stats and a shit ton of damage. The problem is they cant do that for AP fighters imo with out potentially busting mages as a whole.

rawiazam11 votes

{quoted}

The actual reason is because if you look at champs like Diana who was supposed to be a fighter, she has to pick between damage or tanky, and can't do both. Fighters on the other hand have their Trifecta of items that give them tanky stats and a shit ton of damage. The problem is they cant do that for AP fighters imo with out potentially busting mages as a whole.

i proposed a solution in my recent post, i think that'll fix it

HaIlMonitor1 votes

I just see that helping champs like Brand, Swain, and Singed which are all strong already.

Frosted Tips1 votes

It uses unique abilities so it would help them from the poison/bleeds. Plus if new items for AP Bruisers are introduced they could balance the item and or the problematic champions that abuse it too much.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

i proposed a solution in my recent post, i think that'll fix it

Link? I'm eager to see you showing a naturally scaling AP item. AD can do it easily because of Triforce and Steraks working off BASE attack damage. there is no BASE ability power, so therefore no natural scaling to be had. Anything specific to HP would be abused by ALL AP champions because they really don't have many options, and those they do have give HP as well. It might seem kinda sucky, but almost ALL AP items need to change for AP bruiser items to be implemented successfully. That's what made April's poor excuse for a rework so disappointing.

rawiazam11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jzEgk7kF,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2018-08-04T22:58:45.182+0000)

Link? I'm eager to see you showing a naturally scaling AP item. AD can do it easily because of Triforce and Steraks working off BASE attack damage. there is no BASE ability power, so therefore no natural scaling to be had. Anything specific to HP would be abused by ALL AP champions because they really don't have many options, and those they do have give HP as well. It might seem kinda sucky, but almost ALL AP items need to change for AP bruiser items to be implemented successfully. That's what made April's poor excuse for a rework so disappointing.

i suggested a stat system like the old runes, u can click on my profile to see, essentially u have points to spend on certain stats so u won't be tied to pick runes with them. one of the stats i suggested is ap scaling like gathering storm

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

i suggested a stat system like the old runes, u can click on my profile to see, essentially u have points to spend on certain stats so u won't be tied to pick runes with them. one of the stats i suggested is ap scaling like gathering storm

How would changing the rune system in any was aid AP champions with the lack for variety in their Items?

rawiazam11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jzEgk7kF,comment-id=00020000000100000000,timestamp=2018-08-05T10:06:53.117+0000)

How would changing the rune system in any was aid AP champions with the lack for variety in their Items?

by making them not in need for such an item in the first place

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

by making them not in need for such an item in the first place

Oh I see. But then surely the AD bruisers could do the same, thereby being once again far stronger then AP due to their item advantage?

rawiazam11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jzEgk7kF,comment-id=0002000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-05T18:05:20.762+0000)

Oh I see. But then surely the AD bruisers could do the same, thereby being once again far stronger then AP due to their item advantage?

not if you count the ap advantage in runes like now where u get x ap OR 0.6x ad for runes.

Frosted Tips1 votes

This item would be a start because it just doesn't offer much AP and they could build void staff instead. Like black cleaver and lastwhisperer items exist together idk why these couldnt.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

This item would be a start because it just doesn't offer much AP and they could build void staff instead. Like black cleaver and lastwhisperer items exist together idk why these couldnt.

Black cleaver = fighter item Last whisper = marksman item

Theyre part of different itemization pools, which is why they coexist.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Exactly my point the item I introduced and Void staff are for different itemizations paths.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Exactly my point the item I introduced and Void staff are for different itemizations paths.

Riot lumps all "mages" together regardless of their actual role as bruiser, burst, sustained damage, or support. Its why "mage itemization" is so homogenized.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Then Riot could change that by making items dedicated towards curtains AP roles. Not everyone can use Ardent because it requires a heal or shield. Unholy Grail is designed for supports too. And deathcap is so expensive supports really cant ever afford it. So they have already started it so I don't know why they can't do more in your mind.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Then Riot could change that by making items dedicated towards curtains AP roles. Not everyone can use Ardent because it requires a heal or shield. Unholy Grail is designed for supports too. And deathcap is so expensive supports really cant ever afford it. So they have already started it so I don't know why they can't do more in your mind.

Because a mage is just a more offensive support according to riot. I mean... You ever wonder why the blue tree mostly caters to supports?

Frosted Tips1 votes

Well it caters to supports because Aery is amazing for poke and shielding, water walking is great for roams, mana flow band because supports use alot of mana, like idk what you are trying to get at Sion used that tree for awhile the tree mainly helps with severe mana issues and roaming capabilities.

Illabethe1 votes

So.... when did they make Last Whisper Marksmen only? Oh Right. They didn't.

KlydeFrog1 votes

What about mumu lol its call archangel staff transcendence and gathering storm. And boom mana and cdr items

rawiazam12 votes

item 3091

Frosted Tips1 votes

??? No health no pen and gives attackspeed which most ap bruisers don't need is good for them?

VoraciousX1 votes

{quoted}

item 3091

Wit's End doesn't work for AP bruisers unless they're Diana and even then it's not good because she doesn't have valuable health items to go with her passive. You can't just build full tank Diana with the exception of a Wit's End, you can't build full tank Diana with Nashor's+Wit's end either, because you're suggesting to buy into the thought of Diana surviving a teamfight with her sustained damage, but she won't have the health to stay alive, and she won't have a big shield either because her shield scales with AP. I've been trying to make Bruiser Diana work, the thing is, it doesn't work. The best I can do with Diana is item 3115 item 3124 item 3001 item 3091 item 3020 and some other random tanky item, but you can't really survive with that setup because you're not buying much health, and you still kind of kill people like an assassin would. RoA start might be okay, haven't tested this, but then you're gonna have 2 of the same unique passive, not that it'll matter TOO much.

Paroe2 votes

AP bruiser =/= battle mage Swain and vlad are more battlemages, as theyre ranged.

AP bruisers are melee AP champions who arent assassins and build AP+HP and/or nashors.

Frosted Tips1 votes

People try to argue them all the time so that's why I said those.

Infernape1 votes

The reason why they don't work is because all AP champions generally build the same items. Take Mordekaiser for instance. He would build Rylai's, Liandry's, maybe a Morello if he needs to etc. He would build the same items a champion like Orianna would buy after her mana item.

There is no AP bruiser/battlemage/diver itemisation aside from RoA and Abyssal Mask (which doesn't work on all of them because some are manaless).

Frosted Tips1 votes

So wouldn't adding new items targeted towards champions that are AP need to stay in a fight and don't have great ratios a way to work towards that diversity?

Infernape1 votes

Yes it would. Especially if it was tailored to those that need to be in close range of enemy champs to be useful.

The one problem would be gating it so that regular mages do not abuse it.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Well poke wouldn't be able to because it is unque casts and the stack duration would probably be shorter than most poke ability cooldowns. And the low AP would make alot of mages scared to pick it up.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

We need this item for AP Bruisers to work:

item 3170

Frosted Tips1 votes

So one it is not on summoners rift and two that item would be abused by every mage.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

So one it is not on summoners rift and two that item would be abused by every mage.

So one, I meant add it to Summoner's Rift, and two, we could make it melee only.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Personally not a fan of making items melee only I feel like we could accomplish these goals without making range characters unable to purchase.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Personally not a fan of making items melee only I feel like we could accomplish these goals without making range characters unable to purchase.

Then how would you suggest getting this item into Summoner's Rift, then?

Frosted Tips1 votes

I wouldn't I dont believe it belongs there but one way would be to lower its AP so mages with high ratios don't want to waste the spot on the item.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't I dont believe it belongs there but one way would be to lower its AP so mages with high ratios don't want to waste the spot on the item.

Like this?

Moonflair Spellblade.

Cost: 2400 gold.

Ability Power: 25.

Armor: 50.

Magic Resistance: 50.

UNIQUE PASSIVE – TENACITY: Reduces the duration of all crowd control effects by 35% (except for Suppression, Stasis, and Displacements)

Builds out of: item 1031 + item 1052 + item 1057 + 445 gold.

How does this sound?

Frosted Tips1 votes

I like that but I'm still concerned with not having a percent pen item that AP Fighters could build effectively.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

I like that but I'm still concerned with not having a percent pen item that AP Fighters could build effectively.

Let me expand on that Whip of Corruption idea you had (because, like you said, it was only rough numbers and no final gold cost was mentioned).

The White Scepter.

Cost: 3000 gold.

Ability Power: 50.

Health: 400.

Cooldown Reduction: 20%.

UNIQUE PASSIVE: Dealing magical damage to an enemy champion Shreds them, reducing their magic resistance by 4% for 6 seconds, stacking up to 6 times for a maximum of 24%.

UNIQUE PASSIVE – RAGE: Dealing magical damage grants 20 movement speed for 2 seconds. Assists on Shredded enemy champions or kills on any unit grant 60 movement speed for 2 seconds instead. This movement speed bonus is halved for ranged champions.

Builds out of: item 3108 + item 1028 + item 3067 + 900 gold.

I can definitely see someone like Rumble or Mordekaiser liking this item.

Frosted Tips1 votes

See I like it but it would be just broken on them and everyone else would be so much less useful with it because they would stack it much less quickly. So it would be balanced around them. That's problematic in my opinion

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

See I like it but it would be just broken on them and everyone else would be so much less useful with it because they would stack it much less quickly. So it would be balanced around them. That's problematic in my opinion

Well you're making it a bit hard to make this work then.

Either they have a pen item similar to this and it's just naturally going to be stronger on some than the others, or we don't get a new pen item.

Frosted Tips1 votes

I would say it can trigger on unique ability casts and stack up to 4 times. Like 5/10/20/30% pen.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

I would say it can trigger on unique ability casts and stack up to 4 times. Like 5/10/20/30% pen.

I just don't really like this.

First off, this would mean there'd be an even bigger lack of equality when it comes to AD/AP itemization, since AD items (like The Black Cleaver) don't have these limitations and they trigger off of every instance of physical damage, as well as letting the whole team benefit from the armor shred.

Second off, this would require you to blow your ultimate in order to reach maximum penetration (which is still 10% less penetration than a Void Staff), otherwise you're stuck with a measly and negligible 20% penetration. I think that's a little bad game design, since ultimates are supposed to be big things you save for the right moment, not something you just carelessly throw away. Plus, this would make them stronger on some AP bruisers like Diana who has a ult cooldown reset and God forbid this item being stronger on some of them rather than the rest amirite? At that point, it's better to just buy a Void Staff/Morellonomicon since you have the penetration on you at all times and you don't have to build it up, you have more AP to deal damage with, and it's still a bigger value of penetration (Void Staff)/provides better stats like Grievous Wounds (Morellonomicon).

Third off, it scales non-linearly. It triggers me that it goes from 5 to 10 (5 numbers in between) and then it goes to 20 and 30 (which is 10 numbers in between). Have it scale linearly like 10 / 15 / 20 / 25.

It just seems way too restricted to even consider picking up. A Black Cleaver copy paste is way more viable, and it's just naturally going to be stronger on some of them.

Just like how Black Cleaver is always going to be the strongest on someone like Darius, this item is just always going to be the strongest on those with DOTs.

Frosted Tips1 votes

Maybe I miss worded I mean every ability cast like each one that you cast will apply it if it lands pretty much so dots are not broken with it and like Taliyah Q only would apply 1 stack and 30% magic penetration is still a lot better than the 0% that you can build efficiently rn

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe I miss worded I mean every ability cast like each one that you cast will apply it if it lands pretty much so dots are not broken with it and like Taliyah Q only would apply 1 stack and 30% magic penetration is still a lot better than the 0% that you can build efficiently rn

Every ability cast =/= every UNIQUE ability cast.

Also, what do you mean magic penetration can't be build efficiently? What's wrong with Void Staff, Sorc Shoes, Morellonomicon?

5050BS1 votes

Why have it only affect the caster? BC puts a debuff so the whole team can take advantage

Frosted Tips1 votes

I already felt like I'm giving this item that is pretty insane to introduce into the game and I didnt what it super overtuned.

KlydeFrog1 votes

Veiger can build tank like nasus because of his ap scaling

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Frosted Tips

Riot Has Proven Time and Timd Again They Have No Clue How to Balance the Jungle
Gameplay62 comments
86
votes
Can't Wait to Have to Ban Mundo Every Game Next Patch
Gameplay100 comments
67
votes
The Day Has Finally Come
Gameplay88 comments
61
votes
Why Does Riot Buff Champions that Need Reworks
Gameplay74 comments
57
votes
Font of Life is Still Underpowered
Gameplay28 comments
48
votes
What Happened to the RoA Changes?
Gameplay42 comments
47
votes