Changes A Garen Player Would Like To See

Alloni Lionward··5 votes·893 views

Hello, it is my intention with this post to have a discussion with other players as well as some Riot developers to see what changes should and can be done to Garen. I will first start out with what I feel are the issues currently with Garen, then move on to what I like with Garen, and then finally state what I feel should be done to improve on him. BUT before all of that, a little bit about myself as well as why I love Garen so much.

I am Alloni Lionward, currently in my promos for Silver 3 (one win in) and consider myself a Top Laner who is pretty awesome at Support, but struggles with the other roles in the game. My most played champion is Garen in ranked. If you look at my lolskill, I am quite a bit better than the average person with Garen. When I first started with this game, I was drawn toward him as soon as I seen him. Why? Because I play the same type of character in every game given the chance. When I play WoW, I play a Warrior or a Paladin. What about Diablo? Barb. So when I first started playing League, I was drawn to Garen. I loved how powerful he feels with his large sword, and his Lawful Good identity. Being able to charge into the team and, if the don't respect me, I will be able to crush any one of them.

  1. What I think is wrong about Garen's current state: A. Garen's skillfloor-skillcap difference: I know Riot has said Garen has a very easy skillfloor and it makes him a good champion for learning, but it is really hard to distinguish a good Garen from a great one. There is much to be desired for someone who mains him to really show just how much better he is at Garen than the average player. I also understand that it is hard to make a "easy to pick up, hard to master" that is balanced, but I do not feel very satisfied with the current state. As I mentioned, I am better than the average Garen player, but besides the "You have slain a champion" how do my allies as well as my opponents get to gauge my skill? Garen doesn't exactly have a lot of potential for #outplay moments so those fighting me don't understand my skill level. I am just doing what Garen does more effectively than others, but it is not very impressive. There is a clear difference between fighting an okay Zed and a great Zed. You can see this in the way he uses his shadows, his preparation and timing, etc.

        B. Garen's mobility. This is not just an issue with Garen but all immobile champs in the game. It just isn't easy being very slow when facing a lot champions you just can't catch.  Yes, you can cleanse a slow and increase your movement speed with your "Q" but when there are ADC's who can run away far better than most bruisers can chase, you cannot do a whole lot.  Caitlyn can jump away. Jinx can self peel. Tristana can knock back and leap away, etc. It also does not help that your "E" slows you down if you happen to run into a minion. I won't waste any more time on this because we all know this one is bigger than just Garen.
    
       C. Garen's scaling into teamfights. I love how strong Garen is in lane, and I love the playstyle of Garen, but what does he exactly bring to a teamfight that another bruiser can't? The new passive buff does give him this relentless feel that is something unique and increases a reason to pick Garen over another champion, but what else can be done?
    
  2. What I like about Garen:

        A. Garen's lane presence is fantastic. He is arguably the best lane bully against ad casters, and can completely shut down those he counters. For example, Garen can destroy Raven (someone who can scale extremely well into late game) as well as Renekton (someone who is a lane bully, and strong in the early game). 
    
       B. Even with all this strength in lane, Garen is not overbearing. He has clear weakness that allow other players to be able to work around his strength. For example, Garen does do well against melee casters, but he struggles against ranged champions. He can be kited easily and beat down if he is not very careful.  This gives your opponent a very clear idea one what to play if you first pick Garen.
    
      C. Garen's scaling, while I think needs fixing, is not all bad. Even if you lose lane and don't get kills, you are still effective later in the game. Some champions fall off the face of the earth if they don't snowball. Fiora is a good example of this. Unless she gets fed, she isn't someone to really fear. So, when playing as Fiora, you are constantly looking to get kills and snowball because if you do not, you become useless. Garen however, even when he doesn't do well in lane, he can still kill the enemy ADC/APC. 
    
    D. I love Garen's playstyle. I love the feeling of charging into the enemy team and absorbing all their damage, but never stop coming. I love the feeling of smashing my sword into the ADC/APC and spinning into he team, dealing a lot of damage and finish off the high priority target with my ultimate.  To me, it is the most satisfying playstyle and something I don't want to change.
    
    E. Garen has a very versatile itemization. He can use crit, armor pen, armor shred, damage, tackiness, and health all to great effect. I can build him so many ways that I always have something to try. 
    
  3. Changes I would like to see done.

    A. I think one change that should happen is to give his "W" a higher skillcap. Allow it to extend the duration with the amount of damage he is taking, or extend the amount of damage reduced by the amount of damage he is taking (both?!). This would allow him to still be tanky and allow new players a way of defending, but give more experienced players a greater tool for survivability.

    B. I think Garen's "E" should no longer reduce his movement speed. He is already immobile compared to most people, he can use a little bit of extra help in the movement department. I also think his spin should have its cool down stat when used, and not when the ability ends. This will make it scale better with cool down reduction.

    C. Garen's Ult should have a little something extra. Garen has an ult that is an execute but it doesn't have a reset ability, or the ability to kill more than one person like other execute ultimates. Giving it something that incentives his ultimate over other ultimates of the same kind would be a healthy change (as long as the change is not overbearing). An example would be that; when he uses is ultimate, it lands with so much force that it causes a massive discharge of force that knocks enemy champions away from the blast and slows them as well as stuns the person hit if they lived (maybe too much like Leona?)

In conclusion, I love Garen but there is a lot to be desired in my mind. I would love to hear other players ideas as well in a similar fashion as I have (what you feel is wrong, right, and what you think should be done) I would also love to hear some Red's on the current state of Garen and what they think should be done with him and his kit.

11 Comments

Bharhash1 votes

It's like looking into a mirror...

I've posted one or two threads on this very topic, so it shouldn't be surprising that I agree with 100% of what you've posted.

I certainly dismiss anyone's argument about Garen's kit on the basis that "He's a basic champ. He's not supposed to be viable." To that I just have to point to Annie, Kayle, Ryze, Warwick. These are "basic" champs that have very clear methods of discerning the goods from the greats, as well as champs that continue to be picked and scale decently into late game.

His self-slow absolutely should go. Gragas is the only other champ I can think of off the top of my head who had a self-slow and that got whacked.

As well, his ult either needs something else or needs its early cooldown lowered. It's 160 at rank 1, compared to Darius' 120. The do comparable effective damage (thanks to Darius' doing true damage), while Darius' comes off CD first and has a refresh.

One possibility add-on for Garen's ult is an AoE blind (That's a pretty big, bright sword exploding on someone's face) for something like 1/1.5/2 seconds.

Riot-senpai, please notice us.

FyreNinja1 votes

It's like looking into a mirror...

I've posted one or two threads on this very topic, so it shouldn't be surprising that I agree with 100% of what you've posted.

I certainly dismiss anyone's argument about Garen's kit on the basis that "He's a basic champ. He's not supposed to be viable." To that I just have to point to Annie, Kayle, Ryze, Warwick. These are "basic" champs that have very clear methods of discerning the goods from the greats, as well as champs that continue to be picked and scale decently into late game.

His self-slow absolutely should go. Gragas is the only other champ I can think of off the top of my head who had a self-slow and that got whacked.

As well, his ult either needs something else or needs its early cooldown lowered. It's 160 at rank 1, compared to Darius' 120. The do comparable effective damage (thanks to Darius' doing true damage), while Darius' comes off CD first and has a refresh.

One possibility add-on for Garen's ult is an AoE blind (That's a pretty big, bright sword exploding on someone's face) for something like 1/1.5/2 seconds.

Riot-senpai, please notice us.

I agree with 95% of this, except for your proposed ult change. If Garen's ult has an execute function, there is little reason for it to be used as as a blind- even if the blast doesn't kill them, it is unlikely that the enemy champion with turn and start autoing you with little to no health. Maybe add a .5 second stun to it if the target is not in fact slain, as Garen has no forms of cc.

Other thoughts?

Bharhash1 votes

I agree with 95% of this, except for your proposed ult change. If Garen's ult has an execute function, there is little reason for it to be used as as a blind. Maybe add a .5 second stun to it, as Garen has no forms of cc. Other thoughts?

True. A slight tweak to that.. A stun of .5/.75/1 seconds if it does execute the target or the above blind if it fails to kill the target. This would give it something else that affects secondary targets regardless of the success of killing the target, and opens up some more thoughts on utilizing it in fights.

FyreNinja1 votes

I agree with 95% of this, except for your proposed ult change. If Garen's ult has an execute function, there is little reason for it to be used as as a blind. Maybe add a .5 second stun to it, as Garen has no forms of cc. Other thoughts?

True. A slight tweak to that.. A stun of .5/.75/1 seconds if it does execute the target or the above blind if it fails to kill the target. This would give it something else that affects secondary targets regardless of the success of killing the target, and opens up some more thoughts on utilizing it in fights.

Ohhhh, are you thinking an AOE effect? I feel like that could be pretty big in teamfights, but if tweaked correctly, might be an option. The blind can't be AOE though- Riot would never allow that. All aa's disabled in a teamfight?

Bharhash2 votes

Ohhhh, are you thinking an AOE effect? I feel like that could be pretty big in teamfights, but if tweaked correctly, might be an option. The blind can't be AOE though- Riot would never allow that. All aa's disabled in a teamfight?

Until Soraka got remade, I'd have never thought they'd go with an AoE silence.

Alloni Lionward2 votes

I think it would be very fitting for his ult to have some AOE CC effect, given how it looks. It is this huge wave of blinding light that is smashing into the ground, smiting some poor soul who made the dire mistake of standing on the wrong side of JUSTICE! I think a large knock back, or stun/slow would not only be effective, but fit very well with the abilities visuals.

Sire Hippington1 votes

I actually find Garren is in an extremly good spot right now. He does exactly what he should do, and his skill celing isn'T that low, it just doesn'T show in flashy plays, and many people don'T understand that and therefor don'T apriciate a well played Garen, but i have no problem with that. I agree on removing the self-slow from E though, it just feels bad and needlessly punishing.

I actually fear that Garen might be up for a nerf if the current dominance of ADCs gets rightfully nerfed and tanks, especially low mobillity/cc tanks, get some love via item and masterie changes(two things that should be done imo).

King Spinmacia1 votes

Another Garen main here! If you couldn't tell by my name...

I think his problems lie directly in his Q and his Ult. W is extremely good and his movement speed decrease on E is negligible given you engaged well. (Most champions, even teemo, will take at least 75% of the spells' damage if they run).

Q should make him IMMUNE to slows, much like Yi's ult. The slow break is great, but several champions can just reapply another slow.

R is weak, really weak compared to other execute ultimates. Riven's ultimate is ranged and an AOE, and Darius' deals true damage and has a kill reset. Garen's ultimate is easily countered by hexdrinker and any sort of MR. My fix for this? I have some ideas...

Ultimately, I think Riot is hesitant on buffing Garen because of his extremely dominant laning phase. Even against his "counters" I often come out getting fed and snowballing. However, it's his late game that he suffers. Even if you go 11/0 with Garen, you will get outscaled by most any champion come the 35 minute mark. My suggestion is to augment his W at max rank. While W is active, Q makes him immune to all CC, makes E not decrease movespeed. Also, I believe his R should have either a reset on kill (not assist), or maybe even make it CC a target if it fails to kill them. (1 second stun?)

Alloni Lionward1 votes

I will have to argue a bit against what you said about Garen's ult. Riven's ult can miss. Yes it is a line shot, but I don't know how much, if any, range it has over Garen's ult. As far as Darius, it does true damage, and can reset, but you have to get 5 stacks in order for it to be able to do a lot of damage in the first place. And, if you know anything about Darius, you can easily avoid him getting stacks.

Garen's ult also scales extremely well into the late game. Its cool down is usually around 60 minutes due to your CDR and its base damage alone is over 500. It has a lot of draw backs early game, but that's because of how dominate Garen is in lane. Riven is no where near as dominate in lane, and Darius, while being very strong in the first 8 levels, falls off in about 10 minutes, and is too easy to kite (even Garen can kite him)

I do think Garen needs some sort of ult buff, which I mentioned some ideas above, but I don't think Garen's ult is nearly as bad as people like to say, it just needs something more to make it more compelling.

Kögâ1 votes

Love it.

Bharhash1 votes

Agreed.

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