Making Garen A Easy to Learn, Hard to Master Champion

Alloni Lionward··3 votes·1,481 views

I am sorry if this is not the appropriate place to do this; I don't know if there is an official place to go for something like this. I have what I believe are a couple of really cool ideas to Garen that will offer an increase in his over all skill cap while still allowing him to be good with beginners; an "easy to pick up, hard to master" champion that I know are very hard to balance.

I think Garen is a champion that has a pretty solid lane phase, but his team fight is lacking. As of right now, Garen's play style is one of two things: run in to the enemy team and blow up a squishy target, or fail to do that due to your low mobility and be a meat shield who soaks up damage for your team. While these things can be effective, they offer little in dynamic, strategic diversity.

The first change I think would be a good idea is a change to Garen's W "Courage". As it is right now, this ability has a passive that increased the bonus Armor and Magic Resistance by 20% and an active that reduces all incoming damage by 30% and grants 30% tenacity for 3 seconds, up to 6 seconds at max rank. While this ability is extremely good, there is no real reward for using this ability in an intelligent matter other than allowing him to soak up more damage. The skill cap here is understanding when the enemy is going to attempt to burst you down, something that can be very hard to do. Therefore, I think this ability should be changed in a manner that allows it to greatly reward this knowledge, and punish you for not using it correctly. This will separate the good Garen's from the great Garen's.

Proposal: Initial duration- 3 seconds 15% damage reduction and tenacity (only cool down scales with level) Maximum duration- 9 seconds 50% damage reduction and tenacity(?) (amount increases with how much damage you actually take)

This change would be an initial Nerf to its immediate effectiveness, but reward you for using it at the right moment by scaling extremely well with the amount of damage you are taking when it is up. This would still allow new players to ward of damage, but it will allow experienced players who are able to read their opponents timing to be greatly rewarded for doing so. This creates an interesting dynamic for both Garen and those who are fighting him. Should they burst him now? How can they bait out his W so he no longer has it?

Another thing I would like to change is Garen's E "Judgment" This move is actually extremely powerful, even in the late game. The issue is that in order for it to do its most amount of damage, it needs to land for 3 consecutive seconds, which becomes very hard to do later in the game. Garen lacks mobility and that is okay, so long there is a way to counter this mobility more than just his silence. The silence works well in a 1v1 battle, but in a team fight you are going to be locked down and will not reach them for 3 seconds.

The solution to this would be creating a vortex effect on his judgment. This gives Garen additional CC while creating a very interesting scenario in a teamfight. The vortex would be a pulling effect that gets stronger the closer you are to Garen and weaker the farther you are from him.

Proposal: Judgment is still 3 seconds and the vortex range and strength scale with level, starting smaller than the range of Judgment but maxing at the range or slightly longer than the range of Judgment.

You can also create a scaling effect for its range and pull effect by something like Garen's movement speed for instance. This would create more efficient itemization for Garen with abilities such as Ghost Blade.

Imagine the team fight and play making this can actually create. Garen Teleports into the middle of a team fight with homeguards, activities his Ghost blade and his Ghost summoned spell as the team attempts to disengage. They are being pulled right back in to Garen being shredded by his damage and walking them back to his team by moving backwards as they are already locked into his vortex allowing his team to get the ace and push for an objective.

This creates a great team fight ability and if it is made in a way that allows opponents to be able to dash out, or out run the ability, it creates counter play. Garen can still be slowed and locked down with CC so that this is not a unescapable move.

The final change would be to Garen's ultimate "Demacian Justice" This move works well with wiping out a single target, but it lacks extra utility and power. Unlike Riven who can kill multiple people with hers, or Darius who can reset, Garen's ult is just one and done. Since it is a very simple point and click, it can't be too much more powerful unless its changed to require more skill. So lets increase the difficulty of using it and reward players by giving it a greater effect than it currently has.

Proposal: Demacian Justice is now a skill shot with its current range. When it is used, enemies around the blast radius are silenced for a set duration. (or some other form of CC such as slow, knock back, stun, etc.)

This change requires a greater amount of skill in a few different ways. It requires more mechanical skill since it is a skill shot and no longer a point and click, and since it allows much more power in a team fight, it creates additional things to think about before using it. Should I use it now on only one person, or should I wait till they are more grouped up so it is more effective to their entire team?

This move seems very powerful but it can be counterplayed in the same way any aoe ult can; keep spread out. You can also dodge the ability now so you don't run the risk of automatically dying to it, you can actually counter play it and escape due to its low range and Garen's low mobility.

Overall, I think these changes would allow Garen to be a much better Champion with a higher skill cap while still being very accessible to newer players and allow them to have a champ they can learn the game on. I hope that this message is looked at and taken seriously and in consideration to what to do with Garen to create a more viable champion in Today's meta. Thank you for your time reading this.

12 Comments

Sightless662 votes

I'm not sold on this. As I see it, you're doing two things. First, you're increasing his tankiness (the change would make it just better in most situations, particularly in teamfights, given how easy it is to use). By itself, this isn't really a bad thing because being extremely tanky while putting out damage is pretty much his niche.

The thing I object to is how much CC you're giving him. That new E is very, very strong (on a side note, making it scale with his movement speed is not a great idea because he's already rewarded for building it to make up for his lack of a gapcloser. All more scaling will do is cement certain builds). It would provide a lot of teamfight CC. The value of any kind of displacement CC, particularly one that pulls people into a group, can not be underestimated. The new R change is also extremely strong for the aoe silence (making it a skillshot is not anywhere near enough of a weakness for that given that you're keeping the short range, which mitages the weakness of a skillshot). This is a lot of CC you're adding to a champion who has strengths mainly focused outside of CC. He does not need all this CC to be effective. In addition, giving him a silence on his Q which he can follow up with a silence on his R will make him even more annoying to lane against because his level 6 murder combo will be even harder to respodn to (and having the slowing effect on his judgment will just make that worse).

It's worth keeping Garen's existing strengths and weaknesses in mind. Right now, he's relatively easy to kite and he has minimal CC, but he is extremely tanky, mitigates CC, and he deals pretty good damage. You're chipping away at one weakness (which makes it kind of weird that you're trying to leave it as the main form of counterplay to him), and you're almost completely eliminating the other. A vulnerability to kiting can not be his only significant weakness (and if it was reason why you can't give his abilities scaling with movement speed).

The ideas themselves are not bad. They could be pretty good to give him. Giving him all three is way, way, way too much. Too many weaknesses eliminated.

Alloni Lionward1 votes

{quoted} I'm not sold on this. As I see it, you're doing two things. First, you're increasing his tankiness (the change would make it just better in most situations, particularly in teamfights, given how easy it is to use). By itself, this isn't really a bad thing because being extremely tanky while putting out damage is pretty much his niche.

The thing I object to is how much CC you're giving him. That new E is very, very strong (on a side note, making it scale with his movement speed is not a great idea because he's already rewarded for building it to make up for his lack of a gapcloser. All more scaling will do is cement certain builds). It would provide a lot of teamfight CC. The value of any kind of displacement CC, particularly one that pulls people into a group, can not be underestimated. The new R change is also extremely strong for the aoe silence (making it a skillshot is not anywhere near enough of a weakness for that given that you're keeping the short range, which mitages the weakness of a skillshot). This is a lot of CC you're adding to a champion who has strengths mainly focused outside of CC. He does not need all this CC to be effective. In addition, giving him a silence on his Q which he can follow up with a silence on his R will make him even more annoying to lane against because his level 6 murder combo will be even harder to respodn to (and having the slowing effect on his judgment will just make that worse).

It's worth keeping Garen's existing strengths and weaknesses in mind. Right now, he's relatively easy to kite and he has minimal CC, but he is extremely tanky, mitigates CC, and he deals pretty good damage. You're chipping away at one weakness (which makes it kind of weird that you're trying to leave it as the main form of counterplay to him), and you're almost completely eliminating the other. A vulnerability to kiting can not be his only significant weakness (and if it was reason why you can't give his abilities scaling with movement speed).

The ideas themselves are not bad. They could be pretty good to give him. Giving him all three is way, way, way too much. Too many weaknesses eliminated.

Oh I agree that if all these changes were made it is possible making him extremely over powered. I think the thing that will mean the most is the numbers. If the vortex is not extremely powerful and lacks a long range, is that still too. Much? What if the ultimate CC is only for .25 seconds long? Is that too much CC still? Or is that just enough to not make him overbearing but still be an effective change?

I agree that if these changes were made, it will probably mean something is taken away from him. A Nerf to his movement speed (if his E did scale off it), possibly removing the silence on his Q (since he is getting so much CC), even lowering the damage on his E (perhaps increasing its scaling though to make it still effective.)

All and all I am really looking for a Red to see these ideas and be inspired from them to really change Garen into a more effective champion. That said, I honestly really like my ideas, especially the vortex; I think it is something that's extremely unique and would give Garen something that make him a more solid niche pick.

redniwediS1 votes

As a Garen main I can easily say your proposals for his E and R will make him strong enough to be nerf worthy. He's already in a good spot balance wise, so getting extra strength in those areas will likely require a drop in strength somewhere else.

I do like your idea for his W though, and it gave me an idea. What if Garen's W did not only protect him, but also protected team members in range? Even in it's current state this might give Garen enough well timed team utility. He is a bruiser after all, his utility shouldn't be rivaling utility focused roles.

HOE Bloo1 votes

those are some interesting points you have there, his ultimate being a skill shot would be a lot cooler (im imagining something like Leona 's ult but with his giant sword) the cc added on to it might make it too OP though. his E though, i was thinking if it could become an AoE silence with a trade-off like Garen having his movement speed reduced. his theme should be "I uphold Demacian justice and am handsome as hell. yes, you are now speechless" [cuz of the silences he should be having]

Alloni Lionward1 votes

Thank you both for your input. I appreciate it. I do believe that if all these changes were put in, it would make Garen possibly too strong. But I think something that would keep him balanced is that he is still easy to kite. His weakness is still there; long cool downs, low mobility, his damage still kind of falls off.

Please bump post for more to see. Would love a Red to actually see this and comment on it, but I love hearing constructive criticism from all :)

Narasimha1 votes

Proposal: Initial duration- 3 seconds 15% damage reduction and tenacity (only cool down scales with level) Maximum duration- 9 seconds 50% damage reduction and tenacity(?) (amount increases with how much damage you actually take)

Not really a good idea. This lets him be extremely tanky without having to invest too much in tanky stats.

Proposal: Judgment is still 3 seconds and the vortex range and strength scale with level, starting smaller than the range of Judgment but maxing at the range or slightly longer than the range of Judgment.

You can't just GIVE him cc without taking away strength from something else. You'd have to reduce the duration, damage, or pull from another ability's stats. And while it has counterplay in a team setting, it would make him a monster in 1v1s.

Proposal: Demacian Justice is now a skill shot with its current range. When it is used, enemies around the blast radius are silenced for a set duration. (or some other form of CC such as slow, knock back, stun, etc.)

This one I'm actually on board with, but it seems a bit too strong. You're giving him more cc and potentially more range, so you'd still have to pull back the numbers from this or another ability. And in all honesty, if you have to do so much shuffling of numbers, then the idea is probably pretty iffy. Well, that or the champion is in a REALLY bad place, but Garen isn't quite there.

Alloni Lionward1 votes

Not really a good idea. This lets him be extremely tanky without having to invest too much in tanky stats.

I think it is important to understand what Garen is supposed to be. What is his identity? What is his kit supposed to mean for his itemization? Currently, Garen is meant to be what I consider a true bruiser; someone who is equal or close to equal parts damage and tank. This is why his abilities can crit and his W exists. He is meant to have his W and a way to not have to invest heavily into tank items while still being very tanky This change would take this identity and make it more powerful without making it over bearing. 50 damage reduction for 9 seconds seems powerful, but it is not even garenteed (don't judge me). You have to be able to time accordingly in order to get its maximum effect. If you don't do so, you are actually much weaker than Garen currently is because its duration and reduction amount is lower than what it is a max rank (6 seconds 30% reduction). You also have to understand the cool down is still long. After the initial 9 seconds, you don't have this ability and are left open to damage, especially if you don't have that much tank items built.

You can't just GIVE him cc without taking away strength from something else. You'd have to reduce the duration, damage, or pull from another ability's stats. And while it has counterplay in a team setting, it would make him a monster in 1v1s.

While very possible that giving this move extra utility while not taking anything away would allow him to be extremely powerful, I don't think it is as powerful as you might think. Garen can still be slowed (reducing the range of the vortex if movement speed is involved), knock back, rooted, stunned, etc. He is not unstoppable by any means. And if the team doesn't stick together, they won't be sucked into it. Overall, it will punish teams for poor positioning but punish Garen for trying to initate if he does it poorly.

This one I'm actually on board with, but it seems a bit too strong. You're giving him more cc and potentially more range, so you'd still have to pull back the numbers from this or another ability. And in all honesty, if you have to do so much shuffling of numbers, then the idea is probably pretty iffy. Well, that or the champion is in a REALLY bad place, but Garen isn't quite there.

I don't think the range should be increased. I think its current range 400 units, so even if its a skill shot it is only 400 units long. Something you can easily flash to dodge, dash away, etc. it creates more counter play than it currently has (which is none cause its point and click) I don't think it should have aoe damage cause that is too much like Jinx in my mind. Instead I think it would be better to grant it some sort of CC.

Overall, I agree that with all of these put in to Garen's kit, it might make him too strong, but I think that comes down to just how powerful you make all these. Perhaps the ult CC is only for .25 seconds? Maybe its 5 seconds? That I think has the biggest determining factor for Garen's overall strength gain from these changes. With that said, I am very open lowering something Garen has in order to initiate these changes. Lower his movement speed, increase cool downs, lower damage, etc. Though I don't think its needed if you make these changes not extremely powerful or long durations.

SouL1ess1 votes

...I still remember your "humor"-filled thread on the same topic >_>

Alloni Lionward1 votes

{quoted} ...I still remember your "humor"-filled thread on the same topic >_>

Shhhh!!! We don't talk about that one! But I realized it was too silly (and unfunny) to take seriously so I just wrote a new one that's much more serious but the same stuff.

SouL1ess1 votes

I agree, your new post is much better at conveying information and ideas.

Wingling1 votes

I think these changes are way too disruptive. Any added CC will by necessity require huge nerfs elsewhere, and your W change doesn't effect his skill-cap at all. He still wants to activate it immediately before taking damage, although now you have no idea how much damage you're going to reduce (think about total damage reduced after the skill wears off. At the end of the day you will have reduced a flat % of the damage taken, but it will be determined by things that are completely out of your control, like whether the damage come from Malzahar or Veigar (dots vs. 1000 dmg nukes). And that's not even mentioning the tenacity, which is now completely out of your control.

Garen is actually pretty close to being balanced, so any change should be minor. Also, there are more ways than people tend to think for Garen players to show mastery of the champion (R/W timing, spinning during CC, staying out of melee range during spin, your entire lane phase is decided by your ability to use passive, good game sense is needed to land your "slow burst"). One idea I've had is to make it so his passive can't be removed during courage. It's simple, it rewards smart W'ing, it isn't very disruptive (could even be withheld until 6 to smooth out his weird 1/11/16 thing) makes his matchups more interesting and helps a ton in some of his harder matchups.

Also, Garen has much bigger problems than his skillcap. I know that's what Riot said is his problem, but they're wrong. His real problem is that he has too much counterplay, which is partly the result of a few bad changes that Riot made that they didn't know were bad (and still don't).

warpenguin5551 votes

Based on some of the people i see playing him, he is hard to learn and master. CMON, HOW DOES GAREN LOSE LANE TO A RIVEN!

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