Wait wait.. Zyra buff??
Deadly Spines (Q): AP ratio increased to .6 from .55 Damage increased to 60/95/130/165/200 from 60/90/120/150/180
Like...
why?
Deadly Spines (Q): AP ratio increased to .6 from .55 Damage increased to 60/95/130/165/200 from 60/90/120/150/180
Like...
why?
Because they nerfed her Q during the MYMU and now people are maxing E over it because it's pretty bad. I'm all for the buff.
Maxing E always was the better call, especially as support. More root duration->more free time for your plants(and adc) to wack away on the victim+less chance for them to get out of the ult befor the knockup.
Maxing E mid was a terrible idea. Yeah it gave you longer to punish the opponent with plants but putting all of your waveclear into your only safety tool was always asking for trouble. You maxed Q so that you could push without inviting ganks you had no defense against.
As sololaner, yes, as support, no. As support there is no need to push with Q, and most of the poke comes from the plants, not the Q it's self, even if you max Q first, unless you caste it alot without seeds which costs a lot mana compared to the payoff. As support, a longer root to setup all ins or deny them is just better on a good zyra. For un experienced zyras, maxing q was better as it's easier to use, but if you were confident in landing the Es, maxing E always was the better option on support zyra.
Sorry, I should have written more than I did, but you saying "especially as support" meant you did also say that you should have been maxing E on Zyra mid and that's simply not true.
I agree that E max was best on Zyra supp but the fact that it's now desirable even on Zyra mid is concerning and probably the main reason for the change. It makes a nice buff for Zyra mid while hardly impacting support at all because Q can even be maxed last if you're bot lane Zyra.
Oh my goodness. So I was building zyra wrong the whole time when I'm plat 1? Her Q before rework was a lot easier to land, stronger and shorter cool down. Why should I max E that has a cool down of 12s at all rank =.=. It's only situational for match up like thresh and blitz. Don't say always maxing e is better because that is not true.
I'm sorry, but maxing E first is always the better choice. Longer root duration for your ADC = more peel. You're a support - you're not there to do damage, you're there to ensure that your ADC gets to do as much damage as possible. I only ranked Q first in lanes where roots are either superfluous (tahm support for example) or where poke > all-in (like against Soraka, where a max rank Q with a few plants does like half her health without putting you in any danger).
In a lane with any kill pressure at all though E max first is better basically 100% of the time because it's more reliable. You only have to land the 1 E and you get extra root duration, but in order for maxed Q to matter (the base damages at max are fairly close together) you have to hit it multiple times, and it provides less peel than the longer root.
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I'm sorry, but maxing E first is always the better choice. Longer root duration for your ADC = more peel. You're a support - you're not there to do damage, you're there to ensure that your ADC gets to do as much damage as possible. I only ranked Q first in lanes where roots are either superfluous (tahm support for example) or where poke > all-in (like against Soraka, where a max rank Q with a few plants does like half her health without putting you in any danger).
In a lane with any kill pressure at all though E max first is better basically 100% of the time because it's more reliable. You only have to land the 1 E and you get extra root duration, but in order for maxed Q to matter (the base damages at max are fairly close together) you have to hit it multiple times, and it provides less peel than the longer root.
She is mage intended, Support is secondary, don't generalize.
While she was originally launched as a mage, and is still viable as a mage, Riot has openly said that they consider support to be her primary now and that mage is the secondary.
Actually, low levels you are the one doing the damage in lane, especially on an aggro support like zyra/sona.
Adrian (IMT Support) Maxes E. Plat 1 doesn't mean shit when compared to challengers, sorry buddo. Proof : http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/TRLH1/1001720176?gameHash=67f1feafdf188b05&tab=builds&participant=10 There are a ton of games on Zyra I can link you (in LCS). Let me know if you want more Mr Plat 1 sir.
Tf sensitive much? Do I need to be challenger to know how the champion works? Obviously you are not reading my post because I said not everyone maxes E first like how Melyn ( A challenger/high diamond Zyra main) maxes Q instead of E before the Zyra rework for consistant poke damage and not all in. Don't ever compare your challengers shit to me because I ain't buying it. Geez some of these challengers are just salty as hell.
Sensitive? I was pointing out that your "authority" as a plat 1 is nearly nonexistent, especially when compared to challengers. Here's a guide by Melyn (no idea who this guy is though). http://www.lolking.net/guides/314140 Maxes E. Here's a recent game: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2237258453/210522398?tab=builds Also Maxes E. Sorry buddy, maybe you could try telling the truth.
Because Q is a pathetic spell right now. It's so bad that a lot of Zyra's are ranking E over it because it's just all round better.
I personally feel like in addition to this Zyra should get a plant base damage nerf and a ratio buff to make mid Zyra a bit better and hurt sup Zyra a bit.
They should nerf E and buff Q then if they want people to max up Q..
It's not like they specifically want people to max Q, they just want it to be an option.
Zyra was the exact same before the update:
Get 2-3 levels in Q for poke in lane then max E
Because Q is a pathetic spell right now. It's so bad that a lot of Zyra's are ranking E over it because it's just all round better.
I personally feel like in addition to this Zyra should get a plant base damage nerf and a ratio buff to make mid Zyra a bit better and hurt sup Zyra a bit.
Q's allowed to be pathetic; the rest of her kit is oppressive and stupid as fuck for any lane.
Mains Malzahar and Annie, complains about how oppressive Zyra is. OK buddy, what ever you say.
Shrekt.
What are you doing in my swamp again?
him playing opressive laners doesn't mean zyra can't be opressive as well. Her garden of doom is hard to deal with on many champs.
DEALS MORE DAMAGE THAN AN ADC UNTIL 30 MINUTES AS A SUPPORT BETTER BUFF
DEALS MORE DAMAGE THAN AN ADC UNTIL 30 MINUTES AS A SUPPORT BETTER BUFF
You mean, out damages the adc and ap mid after 35 minutes. ^^
I play her a fair bit as support.... and if I am having a good game I'll do more damage to the enemy champions than our mid/adc/top.
And... if it goes beyond 35 minutes either
or
.
I am not saying that is a particularly good build. It's just something that lets me carry if the adc doesn't know what he's doing. I was surprised to see her getting a buff. Maybe they hope that more Zyra's would max their Q's first? I don't know.
I love how people think overall damage is at all relevant.
It is when she wins teammates through her bs damage alone
She's done that since release. Where was the whining back then?
If people want to call for nerfs to champs like Yasuo i can call nerfs on a bs champ that goes support and outdamages the entire team.
Sure, it's a free world. Although Yasuo's kit is BS and everyone knows it.
If by "everyone" you mean all the other low elo kids, then yes I guess everyone does know it.
There's a reason you're never going to see any good player say Yasuo is "bullshit"
yeah, because organized teams don't die to bullshit.
It's also why you don't see good players complaining about Zed. It doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with their kit, but at a higher level of play you rarely see someone not know how to deal with one of these picks (Zed/Yasuo/etc).
I don't particularly think Yasuo is overpowered, but if you don't think "manaless melee carry/fighter/assassin with a knockup, windwall, double crit, and a dash whose cooldown is dictated entirely by the number of unique units around you" is overloaded, you're crazy.
It doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with their kit,
How lmfao? If there's clear counterplay how is there anything wrong?
"manaless melee carry/fighter/assassin with a knockup, windwall, double crit, and a dash whose cooldown is dictated entirely by the number of unique units around you"
You literally just named every single one of his abilitys/passive and said he's overloaded. Works with any champ if you try. Yasuo is far from being overloaded. An overloaded kit is something like Azir or Nidale. Champs that can do almost anything efficiently
What? How can you seriously sit here and tell me there's nothing wrong with Zed's kit? He's got like a 40% winrate and still one of the highest banrates because people just don't want to play against him. That's a hallmark of poor champion design right there - something shouldn't be so awful to play against that he's banned IN SPITE of his strength instead of because of it. Because no matter how weak Zed is you can't seriously tell me he has "clear counterplay" when he pushes R on a carry, pushes E Q and then W's out and oneshots them instantly. At least Talon has to use his blink to get into the fight (and it has to target enemies), at least Katarina has to get a kill BEFORE she has her escape, but Zed literally doesn't care if he successfully kills his target - no risk, so whatever the reward is is fine. Zed isn't strong right now but that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that his kit is fine. There is a difference between "broken" or "overloaded" and overpowered.
Also I fail to see how Nidalee or Azir are even remotely in the same vein as Yasuo. Nidalee has no ultimate so she's already playing at a disadvantage, and couple that with the fact that all of her melee range abilities are empowered by a long range skillshot. Her kit has clear counterplay and ways to stop her getting in - and most of her damage comes from actually hitting skills (the Q execute relies pretty heavily now on the mark to really do considerable damage unless they're already really low).
Now compare that to someone like Yasuo. Literally nothing in his kit requires him to interact with you in any way to prepare himself to fight you. He can stack his Q on minions to get the knockup (0 interaction with his enemy laner), he gets a double crit passive literally for free (he doesn't have to do anything to access this power) and, again, he gets a shield literally for running around the map. I don't have a problem with Yasuo's base abilities really by themselves, but the fact that he has a passive that doubles his crit chance and then ANOTHER passive that gives him a shield is basically the textbook definition of overloaded. If a character only works because you gave them two passives where normal champs only get 1 (or have a passive attached to an ability), Yasuo just gets two passives. If his crit bonus was on an ability (for example) and scaled with skill level? Suddenly not overloaded. Put his shield on another ability and make it skill level dependant on how strong the shield is? Suddenly not overloaded. But when you start the game with your major steroid not only available to you but available at full strength, it's overloaded. There's not a single other character in the game who has their steroid attached to their passive that is the same at level 1 as it is at level 18. Trist gains attack range, but it's based on her level. Jinx can get increased range on rockets/AS on minigun, but it depends on skill rank.
Yasuo's kit by itself is suspect anyway (manaless champions with short cooldowns are a bitch to balance), but when you add the fact that he has a double passive and one of them is at full strength at level 1 it gets silly.
They are buffing her Q because it's damage has been really pathetic-they nerfed it in the MYMU update. Zyra always does the highest damage total in the game. People need to learn that she always has done that and that it won't change.
rework:"we want zyra to do damage through plants" ---->buff her Q base damage and ap ratio
ok
her q damage is really low there is nothing wrong about them buffing it
If this was a Yasuo or Riven buff people would be going insane. Zyra is strong as fuck right now and always ends up with the most damage as a support yet people are fine with buffs
[{quoted}](name=Savage Bear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jXjvP1io,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-07-14T15:11:42.174+0000)
If this was a Yasuo or Riven buff people would be going insane. Zyra is strong as fuck right now and always ends up with the most damage as a support yet people are fine with buffs
That's because Riven and Yasuo have insane mobility.
I'm not saying Zyra's weak or anything, but Yasuo and Riven buffs would be a lot different than Zyra buffs.
What does mobility have to do with anything? Zyra is a support that outdamages everyone in the game at the end and yet her damage is still being buffed.
People just are bias because they don't understand the game. They see a champ like Yasuo and think OMG BROKEN but because Zyra doesn't make flashy plays people think she's weak
No one thinks Zyra is weak, but if one part of anyone's kit is completely useless, it needs some sort of buff - ahem Malphite's W cough cough.
If she's not weak why does she need a buff at all
Her Q is weak. And that is what is getting a buff. It's more of an indirect buff to her, because her plants and other abilities will still being dong the same damage.
I think this is definitely not an indirect buff.
I hope you see what I mean though, even though I probably didn't use correct terminology. It's a buff to one specific ability on her. It's not a buff to the main part of her kit which is obviously the plants.
Yea, I see where you're coming from, just wanted to clear this out. No hard feelings. :) Also, I think she should be "compensated" for this buff, she is a tad bit too strong imo.
Zyra is strong as fuck right now
I actually disagree. Zyra's winrate tanked in 6.13. Their "bugfix" to the plant AI really hurt her. It's much harder to get your plants to fixate on an enemy champion, and that means that you get good plant trades way, way less often. That was a huge nerf.
Zyra's decent at best, and her Q sucks. There's a good justification for buffing it.
Zed's win rate has been garbage for a while, people still ban and think he's op. What's your point?
don't put bugfix in quotes. It was a bugfix. The plants previously could be spawned behind your creepwave and would autotarget champs without you ever hitting them with an ability. While it may have damaged Zyra's gameplay in some ways, it DEFINITELY was a bug (the plant AI isn't supposed to fixate on champs without you tagging them with something first). It still works perfectly fine if you land your abilities.
ppl saying her Q dmg is awful doesnt understand how champ balance works. its a power budget, sure its low, shes already among the best mage all game long as a support (doing more dmg than a mid or adc) so according to your logic, she should be nerfed somewhere else then.
Well I'm pretty sure that if she didn't have any room in her power budget for buffs, Riot wouldn't be buffing her.
not necessarily, riot has buffed champs that didnt need it before in order to push a certain play style or to excuse MASSIVE nerfs afterwards. It has happened with half of the champ pool to my knowledge. Your argument is assuming riot only balances to balance the game. thats as false as you can get. You will get some serious nerfs in future patches (prolly deserved too)