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League Only Moba With A "META"

RexZor··2 votes·1,419 views

If you go play dota 2 or smite there is no meta. You play what ever champ in what ever lane and you jungle if you feel the need.

Im not talking competitive im talking just in normal games. Whats crazy I've found that every champ has its own role in the game whens there's no meta and your not considered a troll if you go a champ a certain lane. I feel that if league reverted back to this formula it would become a better game overall since they are balancing champs based on role's created by the players not the developers themselves.

That being said I also found League is more organized because of the lanes and positions which makes the game less of a cluster fuck and a overall enjoyable experience. But the problem lies when riot chooses to nerf champs because they do well in a role that they are not suppose to i.e. Janna. This makes champs overall weaker because they are limited to what they can play and also then they also make them weaker in their specific role.

In Dota 2 i can play invoker a "mid mage" in league eyes to the bot or top lane. Or I can play sniper "bot adc" Top or Mid. This allows for 100s, 1000s of different match ups that can happen. But in league if I decide to play ex. Taric mid and he started to do good and more people started doing this, Riot would nerf Taric to all hell as a mid laner then also make him weaker as a support. Also in league they have the notion of nerfing a champ because it does well instead of buffing everyone else instead.

I have a lot of issues with Dota 2 one thing i can say is that every champ is op in there own regard. So usually instead of nerfing someone they buff everyone else. But league nerfs the champion to all hell and makes them unviable to play at all. But then you have champs like Taric, Urgot, Mordekaiser, Galio, Poppy who have just fallen off because Riot refuse to make them up to "meta".

Overall either Riot buffs everyone champ so they can reach the standard of their prodigal son Zed. Or do away with the whole notion of Meta because they obviously are struggling to balance everyone due to the Meta. What are you guys thoughts on this.

16 Comments

LongFur Fox3 votes

Meta just means there is an optimized way to play which there is in dota even if it does not require specific heroes to be in specific lanes.

On champions getting nerfed because they can do different roles then that is just plain out not true. Janna got nerfed not because she did well in lane but because there was no counterplay to her since she could use her tornado to one shot a wave and that tornado could be set up a long time before it got fired leaving the opponent with little chance to go in on her.

As an example nidalee recently got a buff to her jungling while not getting nerfed out of mid lane.

On balance then riot is getting closer to a balanced game and I would argue that they have better balance than dota where everything is balanced by being OP. What we have is riot that tries to supress power creep, increase counterplay and eleminate hard counters against dotas balance that embraces power creep and does not care about counterplay or hard counters (you can get obliterated by having a bad matchup without really a chance to win the lane). You can argue that this increases importance of pick/ban phase but lol has that at high levels just view any proffesional match.

Serevas1 votes

[{quoted}](name=LongFur Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jTFI4qYP,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-01-30T15:08:32.515+0000)

Meta just means there is an optimized way to play which there is in dota even if it does not require specific heroes to be in specific lanes.

On champions getting nerfed because they can do different roles then that is just plain out not true. Janna got nerfed not because she did well in lane but because there was no counterplay to her since she could use her tornado to one shot a wave and that tornado could be set up a long time before it got fired leaving the opponent with little chance to go in on her.

As an example nidalee recently got a buff to her jungling while not getting nerfed out of mid lane.

On balance then riot is getting closer to a balanced game and I would argue that they have better balance than dota where everything is balanced by being OP. What we have is riot that tries to supress power creep, increase counterplay and eleminate hard counters against dotas balance that embraces power creep and does not care about counterplay or hard counters (you can get obliterated by having a bad matchup without really a chance to win the lane). You can argue that this increases importance of pick/ban phase but lol has that at high levels just view any proffesional match.

Thank you for your comment, you stated basically everything I had to say.

Trylobyte2 votes

Most normal games I've played haven't had much of a meta either, except for most people preferring a 1/1/1/2 lane setup. I've run craziness like Darius support, ADC LeBlanc, or Garen mid just for lulz. I've had a team forego the laning structure entirely for the old-school 2/1/2 no jungler, 1/3/1 DOTA-style, or even a 5-man mid blitz with a full support team. The only role that not anyone can do is jungle, because not everyone has the early survivability for it.

The meta exists in League because the majority of League players like the meta. Otherwise they'd do something about it.

Hasztalan22 votes

{quoted}

Most normal games I've played haven't had much of a meta either, except for most people preferring a 1/1/1/2 lane setup. I've run craziness like Darius support, ADC LeBlanc, or Garen mid just for lulz. I've had a team forego the laning structure entirely for the old-school 2/1/2 no jungler, 1/3/1 DOTA-style, or even a 5-man mid blitz with a full support team. The only role that not anyone can do is jungle, because not everyone has the early survivability for it.

The meta exists in League because the majority of League players like the meta. Otherwise they'd do something about it.

If there would be an award for it, you'd easily win the "stupidest comment of 2015" by a huge margin.

As for OP it won't happen. Riot is enforcing meta in every way.

Trylobyte1 votes

{quoted}

If there would be an award for it, you'd easily win the "stupidest comment of 2015" by a huge margin.

I accept cash, trophies, or gift cards as my reward. C'mon, be a sport, these boards make me work -damn- hard to have the stupidest comment. I deserve it.

RexZor1 votes

{quoted}

Most normal games I've played haven't had much of a meta either, except for most people preferring a 1/1/1/2 lane setup. I've run craziness like Darius support, ADC LeBlanc, or Garen mid just for lulz. I've had a team forego the laning structure entirely for the old-school 2/1/2 no jungler, 1/3/1 DOTA-style, or even a 5-man mid blitz with a full support team. The only role that not anyone can do is jungle, because not everyone has the early survivability for it.

The meta exists in League because the majority of League players like the meta. Otherwise they'd do something about it.

LoL you missed the entire point of my post the meta is hurting champs instead of helping them in the long run. Also i have no problem with the 1/1/1/1/2 setup im talking the individual champs that can play in each role of that setup.

Trylobyte1 votes

{quoted}

LoL you missed the entire point of my post the meta is hurting champs instead of helping them in the long run. Also i have no problem with the 1/1/1/1/2 setup im talking the individual champs that can play in each role of that setup.

Well, your post is a giant wall of text with no formatting at all, so I skimmed it. And, despite what you think, the 1/1/1/2 lane setup is probably the biggest, most immutable part of the meta and the root of a lot of problems at switching it up since putting different champions in different places means different lane and jungle advantages are lost.

RexZor1 votes

{quoted}

Well, your post is a giant wall of text with no formatting at all, so I skimmed it.

then your just ignorant if you didn't read it and commenting

Trylobyte1 votes

{quoted}

then your just ignorant if you didn't read it and commenting

And you're not exactly facilitating good communication by typing a blob of words. Form and structure, my friend. Let me show you how it's done.

{quoted}

If you go play Dota 2 or Smite there is no meta. You play whatever champ in whatever lane and you jungle if you feel the need. I'm not talking competitive, I'm talking just in normal games. What's crazy I've found that every champ has its own role in the game when there's no meta and you're not considered a troll if you take a champ a certain lane. I feel that if league reverted back to this formula it would become a better game overall since they are balancing champs based on roles created by the players not the developers themselves.

That being said I also found League is more organized because of the lanes and positions which makes the game less of a cluster fuck and an overall enjoyable experience. But the problem lies when Riot chooses to nerf champs because they do well in a role that they are not supposed to, i.e. Janna. This makes champs overall weaker because they are limited to what they can play and also then they also make them weaker in their specific role. In Dota 2 i can play invoker a "mid mage" in league eyes to the bot or top lane. Or I can play sniper "bot adc" Top or Mid. This allows for 100s, 1000s of different match ups that can happen. But in league if I decide to play ex. Taric mid and he started to do good and more people started doing this, Riot would nerf Taric to all hell as a mid laner then also make him weaker as a support.

Also in league they have the notion of nerfing a champ because it does well instead of buffing everyone else instead. I have a lot of issues with Dota 2, but one thing i can say is that every champ is op in their own regard. So usually instead of nerfing someone they buff everyone else. But league nerfs the champion to all hell and makes them unviable to play at all. But then you have champs like Taric, Urgot, Mordekaiser, Galio, Poppy who have just fallen off because Riot refuses to make them fit the"meta". Overall either Riot can buff every champ so they can reach the standard of their prodigal son Zed or do away with the whole notion of Meta because they obviously are struggling to balance everyone due to the Meta.

What are you guys' thoughts on this?

Now then, as to my thoughts.

The meta exists because the players made it. In building around the meta Riot is catering to what the majority of players have shown they want to have in place. There's a reason 'meta-breaking' is considered a bad thing by a fair portion of the community. Further, League always had a meta, even back in the S1 days. The champions involved may change but the meta itself has been pretty inflexible. It's almost never been viable to run anything than the 1/1/1/2 structure, and that structure has certain champions that want to be in certain lanes:

Top has no meaningful objectives near it. Therefore it becomes the 'island' that is the property of champions who won't impact the game for a while. It's a farm lane.

The jungle is inhabited by tough, sustainable champions with good mobility because that's what's needed to survive and thrive there. Especially in Season 5. You need to be able to jump on an enemy laner to either kill them or scare them off and you need to have the durability to survive the brutal first lap.

Mid is the shortest lane and is the one between jungle paths, receiving the most visits from the jungler even if he's just passing by. This is where you want to put your fragile person (often your assassin or mage) so they're better defended. You also want someone who is capable of roaming (so, not your ADC) and picking up kills or objectives in the side lanes, which means it's your assassin or mage.

Bot lane is where your ADC and Support go because that's where the early-game objective, Dragon, is. You want to have as many people nearby for an impromptu dragon fight as you can, so your dual lane is usually going to be mid or bot. Support can keep wards on Dragon while the ADC farms. Being in a side lane (Top or Bot) also means the mid-laner can roam and gank, something the immobile ADC would waste being mid himself.

Riot could certainly change this up... if they completely redesigned the map, which would infuriate damn near everybody. Because again, the meta is popular. People like the meta, people want the meta, people take comfort in knowing the meta is there and any given game is going to have these five roles and this is what is expected of those roles. It's different than DOTA2, yes, but it's what the players as a whole decided they wanted way back when and Riot has been supporting them. Does that mean the meta is a good thing? No. I think it does stifle a lot of creativity and alternative roles. But it is what the players wanted.

RexZor1 votes

{quoted}

And you're not exactly facilitating good communication by typing a blob of words. Form and structure, my friend. Let me show you how it's done.

ok im done just discuss what i talked about please

Raptamei1 votes

{quoted}

If you go play dota 2 or smite there is no meta. You play what ever champ in what ever lane and you jungle if you feel the need.

In Dota 2, picking lanes that counter enemy lanes or heroes that go well together is a significant part of strategy. The good news is that you can play anything anywhere as long as you have a good reason for doing so. The bad news is that lanes are very often decided by picks, without even any combat involved.

League attempts to make laning balanced by enforcing mirror lanes. They prefer fair fights that are decided by skill or soft counters over one side picking a Veno trilane and the other side being forced to solo afk at the tower. This is probably a good idea especially in a genre that's so heavily about personal performance.

But the cost is that champion diversity suffers. Riot didn't recognise this and kept adding champions even though overlap means only a few are viable. THAT's why League is in trouble right now.

RexZor1 votes

{quoted}

In Dota 2, picking lanes that counter enemy lanes or heroes that go well together is a significant part of strategy. The good news is that you can play anything anywhere as long as you have a good reason for doing so. The bad news is that lanes are very often decided by picks, without even any combat involved.

League attempts to make laning balanced by enforcing mirror lanes. They prefer fair fights that are decided by skill or soft counters over one side picking a Veno trilane and the other side being forced to solo afk at the tower. This is probably a good idea especially in a genre that's so heavily about personal performance.

But the cost is that champion diversity suffers. Riot didn't recognise this and kept adding champions even though overlap means only a few are viable. THAT's why League is in trouble right now.

Lanes will always be determined by champions thats the point of seeing what your enemy chooses which leaves open counter play champ/ hero select is like a battle in itself.

UnderatedNoob1 votes

Players created the meta, not riot... The "Meta" is what makes it competitive in ranked games and keeps everything from just being rng... Without a Meta to balance around , the game cannot be balanced . The Meta is the reason this game is the most popular and competitive esport in the world. Riot would be stupid to not support the Meta....

I am not saying that you cannot balance champions and improve the overall flow of the game to promote fairness and champion diversity , but in the end the players have created the meta, not riot. And we all love this game in part because of the meta we have created as players.

Serevas1 votes

Honestly OP you're more than welcome to take a tank bot lane against a duo lane if you want to, it doesn't work well though now does it? You're also more than welcome to put both duo lanes in the top, but why would I do that when a duo in bot enforces better control over the dragon? Rather than over Baron that doesn't spawn for 20 minutes.

The "meta" refers to the most optimal way to set up lanes and play specific champions. That's not to say that Nidalee can't jungle so Riot is going to obliterate her ability to jungle, quite the contrary, not only did they allow it, they encouraged it. I don't understand how you and a number of other people get off comparing Dota2 to League the two are entirely different games and the companies behind them have entirely different ways of thinking about how to approach their game, which they're kind enough to allow you to play for free.

If you don't like league and prefer dota, go play dota and stop playing league, or go to smite if that's your thing, which is also an entirely different game from Dota and League. I just don't see how you can possibly enjoy sitting here and complaining about a game and saying that another one is better, rather than saying "screw it instead of complaining on the forums I'll play the game I like more."

Some people agree with you, you'll find them playing a different game, others don't agree with you, and you'll find them playing league. Maybe you should consider following the same philosophy? Have a nice day.

redniwediS1 votes

I stopped playing Smite when it's meta started, and both dota and dota 2 have had metas for years. Every game that is capable of supporting a meta either has a meta or is too new and no one has figured out an optimal setup yet.

SLangedEdge1 votes

The current meta was used and adopted by some pro team late in season 1, that's when it became set in stone as the most optimal way to lane/play the early game.

I think the meta is a boring stale idea (seems to have a bit more shake up recently tho), to keep the same roles/champs/lane match ups.

LoL necessitated cause it does bring positives to their game.

  1. Less infighting when most of the community understands teh 1-1-1-2 setup, why you run it, and what champs you generally send to it. You will get the mid or feed or, i'm playing champ X regardless of what you guys pick (which is essentially mid or feed)...

Where as dota's setup makes it really hard to explain to new players what the "long/hard/offlane" vs the "short/safelane" is (esp cause the map isn't symmetrical). You will still get the "mid or feed" type players but at least if you have someone that just wants to play hero X, you can send 'em to multiple lanes if the strategy fits. The other hard part is agreeing to the overall team strat, and how to lane (i find it fun, but its definitely more than pick x go y).

  1. Limited champ pool. With dota's wildly differing strats and lane possibilities you need access to the entire roster for counter picks in lane. LoL doesn't guarantee that every player has enough picks to counter different lane setups.

  2. Maximum efficiency. The lane choices were built on efficiency of farm. It is the best way to distribute farm and anytime someone tends to differ from it, you get nerf/bufs to lock it back up. When riot had artificially more armor in one lane to keep ppl from switching and fast pushing a lane.

Dota isn't only concerned with the best way to get all the money off of the map, it is more concerned with what heroes stand to gain the most from a quick lvl6 or priority farm. Also, efficiency is fixed with better gank bonuses, jungle farming/stacking/pulling

  1. Anti-fun. LoL players hate feel'n bad when they play. A 2v1 3v1 make's em feel bad and they feel their roster or even their players could stomach it. Dota, players understand the pros/cons of a 2+ v 1, and certain heroes excel in a 1v3 to safely gain their lvls and some farm. they know that their current game sucks, but they'll come online soon enough.

  2. Balancing. Balancing is so much easier when you know what champ ur working on, where champ is gonna go, and what champ they'll see in lane. Its much worse if champ can show up to any lane, with any partner and face off against any lane combo.

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