Why Did Riot Remove DFG Again? Oh Yeah...

AlphaKappaPika·May 22, 2015·5 votes·1,648 views

Okay so this isn't a QQ thread, as I like the new item Ludens echo. But.. if i recall, the reasoning behind removing dfg, was because it was making bursty champions MORE bursty. now... lets use katarina as an example, old katarina, you rushed dfg, and you had a higher burst because of it. NEW katarina, you rush ludens, you have higher burst because of it. Yes it does have a lower burst then dfg, replacing that with waveclear. BUT WHY DID THEY REMOVE DFG BECAUSE IT MADE BURSTY CHAMPIONS MORE BURSTY, AND THEN REPLACE IT WITH AN ITEM THAT MAKES BURSTY CHAMPIONS MORE BURSTY. It is just so counter intuitive that I can't stand it! I LIKE the new item, more than dfg! BUT WHY DID U REPLACE DFG WITH AN ITEM THAT ESSENTIALLY DOES THE EXACT SAME THING THAT YOU REMOVED DFG FOR!?!? I would love a red to comment and explain why they did this and maybe the reason is obvious and im just being dumb. :P

21 Comments

DrCyanideMay 22, 20153 votes

Because it doesn't just make bursty champions more bursty. It makes every mage more bursty, while removing some of the excessive burst that DFG builders had.

Yes, Kat can build Luden's Echo and use it effectively, but so can Ziggs. Yes, LeBlanc can use it effectively, but so can Orianna. It's no longer an item just for burst mages. As such it's in a spot where if it's too strong they're more comfortable changing the item, as oppose to the champions that abuse it (which would be every mage).

CocoCookieDoughMay 22, 20153 votes

If I remember correctly, DFG also gave 10% CDR, whereas Luden's Echo gives 7% Movement Speed. Honestly, I did read your responses to another post:

{quoted}

I think your confusing the meaning of this post, i will say it again, the reason they removed dfg was because it made bursty champions MORE bursty. Now, when I first saw that post i knew they would be replacing it with a new 120 ap item, i figured that would mean that they were gonna make a UTILITY item, maybe something similar to spellthiefs edge, just with 120 ap and build out of a rod. Instead they created an item that does what dfg did, (make a champion more bursty) just without an active and while I admit it is certainly not as much as dfg, its still quite a bit. here is an example, if you build ludens on leblanc first. it raises her burst because of the passive. If you built dfg on leblanc... It would raise her burst because of the active (as long as you remembered to use it lel).

But... what do you expect a burst champion to do OTHER THAN BURST SOMEONE DOWN?

The burst from Luden's Echo is significantly lower than DFG because of its passive, but if you had an extra 10% CDR, you could spam a bit more.
7% Movement Speed and AoE waveclear is technically Utility, right? I mean, have you seen some AP mids struggle with clearing waves, especially super minions?
Your idea of "Now, when I first saw that post i knew they would be replacing it with a new 120 ap item, i figured that would mean that they were gonna make a UTILITY item, maybe something similar to spellthiefs edge, just with 120 ap and build out of a rod." is similar to saying, "Oh, instead of AoE waveclear, they get extra gold, mana problems somewhat solved (there's always blue buff, or a built Morellnomicon/Athene's somewhere if it's really bad), and 120 AP. And this is meant for AP mids."
Continuing from my previous point, I would legit buy the UTILITY 120 AP ITEM on AP supports, over the traditional Frost Queen/Talisman. 120 AP is a lot, compared to 50 AP in Frost Queen. Also, I don't run into mana issues with 50% Base Mana Regen anyway, so it's a win-win situation. I'm 10% CDR short?_ -buys Ionian Boots-_

Honestly, the only good point I see in your idea is LATE END GAME, where movement speed matters, and gold doesn't. But... with all that extra gold generation... I really wouldn't mind dumping a bit into extra wards (and an extra few potions for me, why not), especially if I'm used to the gold generation in mid lane now.

EDIT: I just remembered that AD mids (Talon, Zed) exist. How would the extra gold generation disadvantage help them?

AlphaKappaPikaMay 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If I remember correctly, DFG also gave 10% CDR, whereas Luden's Echo gives 7% Movement Speed. Honestly, I did read your responses to another post:

But... what do you expect a burst champion to do OTHER THAN BURST SOMEONE DOWN?

The burst from Luden's Echo is significantly lower than DFG because of its passive, but if you had an extra 10% CDR, you could spam a bit more.

7% Movement Speed and AoE waveclear is technically Utility, right? I mean, have you seen some AP mids struggle with clearing waves, especially super minions?

Your idea of "Now, when I first saw that post i knew they would be replacing it with a new 120 ap item, i figured that would mean that they were gonna make a UTILITY item, maybe something similar to spellthiefs edge, just with 120 ap and build out of a rod." is similar to saying, "Oh, instead of AoE waveclear, they get extra gold, mana problems somewhat solved (there's always blue buff, or a built Morellnomicon/Athene's somewhere if it's really bad), and 120 AP. And this is meant for AP mids."

Continuing from my previous point, I would legit buy the UTILITY 120 AP ITEM on AP supports, over the traditional Frost Queen/Talisman. 120 AP is a lot, compared to 50 AP in Frost Queen. Also, I don't run into mana issues with 50% Base Mana Regen anyway, so it's a win-win situation. I'm 10% CDR short?_ -buys Ionian Boots-_

Honestly, the only good point I see in your idea is LATE END GAME, where movement speed matters, and gold doesn't. But... with all that extra gold generation... I really wouldn't mind dumping a bit into extra wards (and an extra few potions for me, why not), especially if I'm used to the gold generation in mid lane now.

EDIT: I just remembered that AD mids (Talon, Zed) exist. How would the extra gold generation disadvantage help them?

I was talking about the active affect of frost queens claim lmao. and the burst really isnt that much lower early to mid game, in fact the burst is about even and maybe a little higher if u were to rush it over dfg (if it was still in the game). and a sentence i should have added there after "making bursty champions more bursty" would have been: and making mages have a burst strong burst as well. So just like with dfg if a ahri to rush this she might not be able to have to use her last r ability. Although it isnt ALL about the burst like dfg was, it certainly has a burst and is the biggest reason you buy it aside from the 120 ap. Its not like i would rush it on kat if it didnt have that added burst, id rather get a deathcap. Though your post was well thought out however you did not realize I was talking about the active, not the gold generation that it provides, i figured they would add some sort of cc with the item similar to the frost queen claims active that could have assassins have a better time picking out targets, but not have that random instakill coming out from a bush that you later found out was a leblanc. I was thinking something kinda like a xerath stun but in an item, so if you catch the adc out in the river you can certainly kill them. I do appreciate your discussion in this matter though.

khorneyMay 22, 20152 votes

hence 20% increased magaic damaeg to them. ludens isnt the same

AlphaKappaPikaMay 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

hence 20% increased magaic damaeg to them. ludens isnt the same

I never said it was the same. Maybe you should read the post before commenting. I just said that ludens makes bursty champions more bursty... the exact same reason why they removed dfg...

khorneyMay 22, 20152 votes

but dfg would affect the whole team attacking one person and hell vlad has a glorified dfg,

AlphaKappaPikaMay 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

but dfg would affect the whole team attacking one person and hell vlad has a glorified dfg,

I think your confusing the meaning of this post, i will say it again, the reason they removed dfg was because it made bursty champions MORE bursty. Now, when I first saw that post i knew they would be replacing it with a new 120 ap item, i figured that would mean that they were gonna make a UTILITY item, maybe something similar to spellthiefs edge, just with 120 ap and build out of a rod. Instead they created an item that does what dfg did, (make a champion more bursty) just without an active and while I admit it is certainly not as much as dfg, its still quite a bit. here is an example, if you build ludens on leblanc first. it raises her burst because of the passive. If you built dfg on leblanc... It would raise her burst because of the active (as long as you remembered to use it lel).

khorneyMay 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I think your confusing the meaning of this post, i will say it again, the reason they removed dfg was because it made bursty champions MORE bursty. Now, when I first saw that post i knew they would be replacing it with a new 120 ap item, i figured that would mean that they were gonna make a UTILITY item, maybe something similar to spellthiefs edge, just with 120 ap and build out of a rod. Instead they created an item that does what dfg did, (make a champion more bursty) just without an active and while I admit it is certainly not as much as dfg, its still quite a bit. here is an example, if you build ludens on leblanc first. it raises her burst because of the passive. If you built dfg on leblanc... It would raise her burst because of the active (as long as you remembered to use it lel).

hell there is a video of a ap rammus 1 shotting someone cause of dfg

AlphaKappaPikaMay 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

hell there is a video of a ap rammus 1 shotting someone cause of dfg

hell there is a video of a ap rammus 1 shotting someone without dfg..

khorneyMay 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

hell there is a video of a ap rammus 1 shotting someone without dfg..

if its the same video he uses it you have to watch carefully

AlphaKappaPikaMay 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

if its the same video he uses it you have to watch carefully

lmao i watched a ap rammus video that was uploaded a few weeks ago, lmao its not the same video dude, i think it might be on whatthehais channel.

JustMyBassCannonMay 22, 20152 votes

No, that's not the exact reason DFG was removed. I defy you to find a Riot post in full context that states that as the explicit reason for its removal.

It was removed because champions whose kits were balanced around taking down a single target could substitute a spell--usually their ultimate--with DFG's burst+damage amp in order to kill a target. Rather than nerf their burst, they removed the item, and replaced it with something that gives significantly lower bonus damage.

AlphaKappaPikaMay 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

No, that's not the exact reason DFG was removed. I defy you to find a Riot post in full context that states that as the explicit reason for its removal.

It was removed because champions whose kits were balanced around taking down a single target could substitute a spell--usually their ultimate--with DFG's burst+damage amp in order to kill a target. Rather than nerf their burst, they removed the item, and replaced it with something that gives significantly lower bonus damage.

They gave 2 reasons in the patch notes. "Adding Deathfire Grasp to a bursty kit really amps up that "woah what happened to me" moment when someone nukes you from orbit." Alright, so is it not true that leblanc has a higher burst when combined with ludens?

Reason #2: "Deathfire Grasp also adds a lot more reliability to a mage's assassination attempts, which means they need to commit less for them. If, for example, Ahri only needs to use one charge of Spirit Rush to nuke her target (with DFG + Q + W)" Ill use leblanc as an example again, before they put ludens in i was noticing when playing leblanc that i had to use my e a LOT more then on live servers, my point is that they removed dfg because it made mages and sometimes assassins patterns "bursty", or rather more bursty then riot wanted it. Ahri was kinda the covergirl for this example even though she was widely considered an assassin before the removal of dfg and changes to her q. Now is it not true that MANY mages with "sustained damage" build ludens and is it not true that it adds a respectable burst to their damage output. Even if the "burst" is smaller but more frequent.

SukishooMay 22, 20152 votes

It was removed because it was too hard for them to balance it.

AlphaKappaPikaMay 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It was removed because it was too hard for them to balance it.

it was removed because they wanted mages to not have so much burst, and removed it because it was too hard to balance mages around it.

Mat7itanMay 22, 20152 votes

It doesn't make bursty champions as bursty as dfg did. So yeah it makes bursty champions burstier (it makes all ap champs burstier) but it is no where near the same level of burst that dfg provided.

AlphaKappaPikaMay 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't make bursty champions as bursty as dfg did. So yeah it makes bursty champions burstier (it makes all ap champs burstier) but it is no where near the same level of burst that dfg provided.

I never said it did, please dont confuse this for a thread saying they are the same thing, when i heard of the changes i figured they would replace it with a spellthiefs edge kind of item, just with high ap and built out of a rod. But instead they replaced it with an item that adds more burst to mages, and honestly at low levels it is quite a bit of hp.

Mat7itanMay 22, 20152 votes

I know you are not saying they are the same thing, but it seems like you did not want an item that gives ap champions more burst, so I figured I would highlight that it doesn't give as much burst. A lot of champions really took a hit when dfg was removed. The removal of dfg made a ton of champions who relied on burst unviable (to an extent anyway). Luden's Echo fills that void. It isn't as powerful as dfg was, but it provides these champions who really needed the burst from dfg viability. Luden's does provide a lot of damage early, but no one really rushes it like they did with dfg (unless your katarina) because there are other items for laning phase that are much better unless you get pretty far ahead.

AlphaKappaPikaMay 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I know you are not saying they are the same thing, but it seems like you did not want an item that gives ap champions more burst, so I figured I would highlight that it doesn't give as much burst. A lot of champions really took a hit when dfg was removed. The removal of dfg made a ton of champions who relied on burst unviable (to an extent anyway). Luden's Echo fills that void. It isn't as powerful as dfg was, but it provides these champions who really needed the burst from dfg viability. Luden's does provide a lot of damage early, but no one really rushes it like they did with dfg (unless your katarina) because there are other items for laning phase that are much better unless you get pretty far ahead.

My idea was for an item that was similar to a xerath e, it helps the assassins catch people out (their job) by providing them with cc that their kits dont have, but it does not increase the actual burst (maybe by like 100 damage if you hit them) so a leblanc cant waltz up to an enemy ziggs, press 2 buttons, instantly get out and the ziggs is dead because of that extra burst from ludens. now if lb didnt have that burst ziggs wouldnt have died and she would have had to commit more, however if she hit that "stun" it would be better than a dfg, because the target is locked down for a short period of time, but at the same time you dont have that wtf just happened moments when you see a leblanc and then you disappear. (still would happen with leblanc) and of course it doesnt give that much burst, but also remember its aoe, when you consider how much damage it does total.. its quite a bit. instantly too. Some valid points though.

Mat7itanMay 22, 20151 votes

That may have been a good substitution to dfg. Most ap assassins have some form of cc to help them catch out their targets, but that cc can be quite hit or miss. Ahri and leblanc's Es can both be dodged relatively easily. By giving them an item that possibly has easier to land cc. The only problem I can think of this having is that depending on what cc and the amount (time the cc lasts and stuff like that) on an item like this would possibly make the ability to chin cc worse (have a bigger impact) than the burst that luden's gives. However, I like the idea behind this more than the idea behind luden's.

SeriphymMay 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

My idea was for an item that was similar to a xerath e, it helps the assassins catch people out (their job) by providing them with cc that their kits dont have...

Oh Kat with a CC??? are you really suggesting this?