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So we all spent the last 4 years complaining that adc's were manditory...

Jeanne fan club··14 votes·4,392 views

And now that there is variety in the botlane we complain that adc's are way too weak and are being forced out of the role as a whole. I mean, what exactly do we want here? Is there anything that Riot can do at this point to prevent everyone from complaining? Or are we just going to keep complaining for game play changes that we will later regret, then complain begging for a revert? If riot ever does just cut damage by 10% the next boards complain-train will be that tanks are too strong because they never die

If adc's get buffed then its gonna be non-stop boards posts about "oh riot killed mages and bruisers botlane by making adc's op again, so much for botlane variety"

If more assassins get reverted then its gonna become "what ever happened to the gameplay philosophy on removing instant oneshots?"

Riot makes the games longer by removing snowballing "why do my games have to be decided by how bad my teammates do? If I'm fed I should be strong enough to carry"

If riot removes the jg changes then its gonna be all "why should the enemy jg be the same lvl as me when he has half my farm?"

I'd hate to be Riot, doesn't matter what they do, the community will always hate it.

If anything ever does kill league, its going to be the indecisiveness of its own playerbase when it comes to gameplay changes.

I'm not taking a position on any of this, my opinions are separate from the things I have listed, I'm just making this post because I think introspection is kind of important right now.

EDIT: Big yikes!!!, the comment section devolved into a clusterh*ck of conflicting opinions from about 12 different viewpoints. Everyone proposing solutions that contradict other peoples solutions. So many people with opposite opinions that it might just be in riots best interest to not do anything at this point. At least there isn't a giant organized campaign to make a gameplay change in 1 direction since there seems to be a decent number of people both for and against the current gameplay state. Oh, and before everyone starts saying that "oh its just adc players" or "oh its just mage/bruiser players" the changes affect everyone, stop trying to act like its just a certain branch of players that its "ok" to alienate. Saying that "its just adc mains being mad that their right click machine is out of the meta" is not a good argument against the current meta. Just like how saying "all adc's are completely unviable" is an incorrect statement given that there has been a comeback in early-mid game adc's winrates ie: jinx jhin lucian ezreal draven twitch. Really, its no different than previous seasons where only a handful of adc's were viable, while the other ones were completely unviable.

50 Comments

OtterlyLost14 votes

Honestly, I never asked for botlane variety. I play bot lane to play ADCs. It's not my interest or prerogative to play mages or bruisers or anything else bot lane. If I had wanted to play any of those picks, I would have gone to one of the three other roles on the map. The fact that ADCs are still the most common thing played bot just goes to show that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

This isn't even touching on the fact that this botlane variety is really half assed and poorly handled. Shit like double mages going bot is oppressive and still unaddressed. And double melees going bot with double targets, second wind, and doran's shield while also having higher base armor and health regen are also problematic; many of these melee picks can go bot lane for free against ADCs because they just dont have the damage to punish them. So between double mages who have cheaper item builds, honestly better defensive itemization, and better early damage and between double melees or melees in general who have better sustain, again cheaper and better defensive itemization, and again better early game damage, ADCs are made irrelevant in lane.

If they really want ADCs to still be viable, they need to balance the "variety" so that it is all less oppressive for ADCs and they have a fighting chance. Its not a fair fight having a pair of duo laners(ADC and support) against a duo laner and a solo laner(support and a champion that, honestly, is fully capable of taking care of themselves). Theres nothing an ADC can do normally against alot of these picks coming botlane. that's why they went bot lane in the first place; to have a safe haven against champions that honestly would destroy them in a solo 1v1 lane.

saltran11 votes

The ones who asked for botlane variety were the ones that don't played botlane.

OtterlyLost6 votes

Accurate. And they're still not playing it. :/ which is another pain point. If you're gonna whine and moan for it, actually play it. All that happened instead was that the people who did play bot lane got alienated by a bunch of BS changes.

remakoro4 votes

I asked for it. Im support main. Im enjoying this meta. I dont give a fuck which champion my ADC gonna play. The only thing im a bit sad about - it feels like actual adc mains moved somewhere from bot. And people that playing on ADC positions atm have absolutely no idea how bot lane works and what botlane champions do. Its like they never seen them in the game.

Oh its Soraka? (or her fucking ADC) And she has 20% HP? Im at 30% HP myself but im gonna dive ANYWAY! Her adc uses heal, soraka ults, dude gets promptly fucked, Soraka/ADC have full HP after that

Not so long ago ADCs were doing that shit all day long in my games. Like 3-4 games in a row. And they didnt even have ignite or cooperated with supports properly. Just 0 to 100 real fast without any prior notice. "I though i can get them LOL" Yea, sure... Even one heal from adc could fuck up you perfect plan completely....

OtterlyLost7 votes

You asked for it but you didn't play ADC. No ADC player asked for bot lane diversity.

remakoro3 votes

ofc they didnt. If you are sitting there as if you are a king of the world why would you ask for someone to kick you out? ADC were mandatory for the longest amount of time. That was the most unchangeable thing in league. And then we arrived to the point where they were not only mandatory but outright broken.

I understand that for some ADC being timebomb was kind of a part of their identity. You let them arrive to late game state and most likely you are absolutely fucked. But when almost every ADC becomes like that thats fucking oppressive. I didnt like those games at all. That was most boring fucking chore possible. Pick enchanter > Buy ardent > Enjoy your victory. IT REALLY went exactly like that. Cuz ADC were that broken you could not afford to pick anything that didnt directly buff your ADC. So almost all tanky supports gathered and took their leave. Imagine being so broken and oppressive that you force out YOUR OWN partners from the lane?

Every game felt as if your are on the timer. And damn you are fucked if your adc werent as good as opposing one.

Why would any ADC ask for changes in such situation? Ofc they didnt ask for anything. (they actually did. cuz being held responsible for every lost game feels like shit)

OtterlyLost4 votes

They didn't ask for changes not because of some superiority complex or some shit like every board member seems to believe. They didn't ask because it means exactly what happened; suddenly the class of champions that only has one lane compared to everyone else have two or three has no lane now. They can't survive their own lane and arent strong enough to go anywhere else. And, again, with feeling:

#I started playing bot lane carry because I wanted to play ADC. If I had wanted to play a mage/bruiser/tank/assassin/whatever, I would have played any of the other available lanes. I didn't because ADCs can only be played bot.

remakoro3 votes

They didn't ask for changes not because of some superiority complex or some shit like every board member seems to believe

I dont know from where you pulled out that "superiority complex" shit but there is nothing in my message that implied that. There is just no reason to ask for changes if you are the one that has it good.

suddenly the class of champions that only has one lane compared to everyone else have two or three has no lane now.

Thats a really interesting thing to say... ADC jungle (thats fucking meta) Graves Kindred Twitch ADC... MID! Ezreal Varus ADC... Depending on match up... TOP Vayne shit or not she is still a thing Quinn

Fuck thats... One... Two... A lot... Plus jungle? But you said one lane? Fuck... This does not add up... Thats definitely not one lane...

Guess where you can take tanky supports? NOWHERE. THEY have only one lane to go.

Where do actual mid mages go? They have ONE lane. Ah i guess now they can go bot as well. Now they do have SECOND lane to go.

Many champions were forced off-meta. Now its time for some ADCs to be non-meta as well.

Just because masksman stayed mandatory for ages it does not mean they cant finally get the same treament as every other class.

OtterlyLost2 votes

Graves is not an ADC by riots standards and neither is Kindred; both escaped the ADC marksmen base state nerfs unscathed. They were also balanced for or created for a lane outside of botlane and only serve as proof that riot could totally balance other ADCs for lanes outside of bot lane. Furthermore, neither of thise picks can actually realistically be played bot lane anymore so saying that they are proof that ADCs have other lanes is also bullshit. Twitch jungle is a cheese pick that requires him to snowball; otherwise he's lunch meat.

And yes, I'd love to see the 43% winrate varus go mid against the hyper mobile assassins and bruisers or against the longer ranged, burstier mages. As for Ezreal, he hasn't gone mid for ages and when he did, he wasnt even played as an ADC but as a mage.

You openly admitted that Vayne top is garbage; it isn't viable or good and if you wanna spend time getting your shit kicked in on Vayne, you might as well do it bot lane where you have a modicum of a chance for your support to save you.

And Quinn is the same as graves and kindred; she more closely resembles an assassin rather than an ADC and was specifically designed and balanced and reworked with the idea of a solo lane in mind. She also didn't receive base stat nerfs when ADCs did, proving, once again, riot does not consider her in the same boat as an ADC.

And finally where tanky supports can go are top or, if you're taric, mid. Furthermore, supports are never not meta; they're always useful and will always have a spot and have never not been considered necessary.

There are also a handful of mages that can go top, some that can go jungle, and some that can go support.

Top lane mages include: Lissandra, Malzahar, Heimer, Annie Jungle: Taliyah, Zyra, Morgana Support: Malzahar, Lux, Morgana, Annie, Brand, Zyra

There are mages with multiple lanes.

And that is the superiority complex I'm talking about. The boards believing that we're "spoiled" just because we want to have lane diversity for our champions and we want a place to actually play them. Calling use whiny and spoiled is especially hypocritical because that's all top and mid mains do when their preferred class is struggling even the slightest bit.

remakoro4 votes

You are being so dishonest. First you say that some champions are never played somewhere or are shit at those positions so you dont want to take them there and then you say that mages that ACTUALLY aint being played for ages or actively being forced in other positions or simply shit - can go somewhere else.

Such double standards.

One of those just killed me. ANNIE. Mage that according to you can go TOP MID OR BOT. But aint played anywhere. 120 place in pickrate.

But poor marksmans surely do have it hard. Occupying Top 1 and top 2 pickrates. Marksman were made so useless that there is more of them than mages in top 50.

And finally where tanky supports can go are top

Everyone seem to consider top to be some kind of trash dump. Its is not. You can take just about everyone to top. But should you?

Furthermore, supports are never not meta; they're always useful and will always have a spot and have never not been considered necessary.

Cuz support is a role. And not class. Same goes for ADC. Botlane carry is a role. Not a class. Marksman is a class. Enchanter is a class. Tank with supportive playstyle aka Warden is a class. Which wasnt around for a lot of time btw.

Marksman aint forced out of anywhere cuz they were "gutted". You just got spoiled and have no idea why this whole meta shift is happening.

OtterlyLost2 votes

Dishonest implies I lied? I didn't lie about anything. I'm sorry you feel that way but it doesn't change anything about what I said; everything I said is accurate. And Annie Bot doesn't take Annie top, mid, or Support, now?

Pick Rate doesn't mean anything. The two most picked champions are marksmen because out of an entire class, those are the only two marksmen mains dont feel completely punished for picking. Or they always have a high pick rate if their ezreal. what's the pick rate of Cait, Trist, and Varus I wonder?

Also you literally saying you can take anything top lane but should you is so goddamn hypocritical when your previous post tried to convince me I should play Vayne top despite it being garbage.

And why are supports both a role and a class but suddenly ADC cant be? This level of hypocrisy is absurd

Baron of Bread3 votes

I got a bit riled by your comment so some of this is a tad aggressive. That was not the original intention.

Hold up. Not every other class has multiple places (or any places) they can go.

You see any tanks out there that are good? Don't say Mundo or Jax or Camille, they are all fighters (Mundo is a juggernaut). Tanks used to be junglers and top laners, but they don't exactly have much of a place to be right now.

Those bruisers you are complaining about in bot lane? Not long ago they didn't exist on the Rift.

You see supports anywhere but bot lane when they aren't gold funneling? The only ones are probably Karma or Lulu mid. I think I have seen one of them in the last 3 weeks and they got slaughtered.

Where were mages before they invaded bot? Mid lane. A couple (Brand, Lux) could "support". You might occasionally have seen one get wrecked top lane.

Where are ADCs at the moment? Many still live bot lane. There are a few that still show up in other places, like Graves and Kindred in the jungle, or Quinn and Corki in solo lanes. Not long ago there were ADCs in every position on the map.

Don't act like what happened to ADCs is anything new or unique. Many of the rest of us are a bit bitter about the treatment ADCs have gotten over the years when compared to our positions because of how good you have had it. This is the first time you have had your shrine disturbed in LoL, and it has been 2 patches since the crit changes. Tanks haven't been a thing for about 5 patches now and it isn't the first time they have been missing. Get over it.

Do you remember why ADCs got changes? Because everything on the map was revolving around the ADC role, and had been for YEARS. You didn't ask for it but we got the changes because everyone else wanted there to be a change. Now we have a game where the ADC isn't guaranteed the most important person on the team every game. About time.

OtterlyLost2 votes

Did I ever act like any class wasnt good at some point? No, I didn't. Though, I vehemently disagree that bruisers didn't exist. They existed just fine before conqueror; I saw many fiora, renektons, Darius, nasus, jax, J4s, Warwicks, GPs all running around before conqueror existed. And now that they have conqueror, they completely dominate.

The only class I feel got booted out of the meta harder than ADCs are tanks and its specifically because Bruisers are completely over tuned with just the addition of one keystone. None of them get base stat changes or anything. They just got the single best keystone in the game and then completely took over.

As for mages, I literally listed a multitude of mages that had a multitude of roles.

And finally, supports had multiple roles at one point(lulu top, karma mid, morgana mid, alistar jungle, leona top, naut top and jungle, Jan a mid) but due to a variety of whining from, again, mid and top mains, they got forced back bot where, like ADCs, they have never not been meta. Name a meta where there wasnt at least one support who was meta and viable. You cant.

And again, I am not acting likeiit's new or unique; that's the board's own delusional hatred. I'm acting like any other main who would be frustrated and feel alienated and upset over their favorite class of champions suddenly being tossed under the bus by people who rarely play them.

Ie, I'm acting exactly as every mid and top main has acted since the dawn of time when their preferred class isn't viable or good. And I will continue to do so until something is fixed and addressed so that I can play my champions without getting shit kicked in every game.

Get over your delusional, moronic circle jerk.

Kringkasteren3 votes

can i just ask what your elo, cause it sounds like you have just been listening to what the casters are saying. and if you're referring to people like uzi being ustoppable lategame. first: it was only in competetive. second: it was never that hard to shut down, kingzone themselfes showed this during MSI, but lost the finals to other mistakes. the fact is now you have let's say someone like a jax, that deals more dammage, has more mobility, and has more health and more armor and mr. he has better burst and has more utilty, and with the current runes and items, you can't deal with that as an adc, and as for mages, they are extremly opressive and does everthing and adc does, but better. these atleast by the games i've played on smurfs doesn't matter in low elo, where people play without thinking too much, but if you play around dia/masters EUW, like me, you know that you will get punished. rekkles even said it himself, that adc are just worse. and if you use the argument that NA is playing adc, we all know NALCS, is pretty much stacked with Imports and bad players so people like doublelift can actually play adc without too much trouble, that can't be done in other regions.

Btw, tell me your rank

remakoro1 votes

plat for two previous seasons and gonna stop playing at plat in this season as well. Dont care for shit casters say. Im referring to actual state of the game both in pro scene and in plebs scene that we had... I think pre crit items nerf. You cant say that anything among that i said is not true. ADC were mandatory for every season i played - 5 years. Not so long ago betting on them was the most efficient ways to win your game. By taking tank support instead of enchanter you were risking falling off very hard in mid game even if you won early game hard enough.

So which one of those are you gonna argue?

the fact is now you have let's say someone like a jax, that deals more dammage, has more mobility, and has more health and more armor and mr. he has better burst and has more utilty, and with the current runes and items, you can't deal with that as an adc, and as for mages, they are extremly opressive and does everthing and adc does, but better.

I have absolutely no idea what are you trying to say. Suppose they are what you are saying they are in the current state of ADCs. And? Mb they aint? So what? What is your point? That as ADC you cant right now reliably solo kill hyper-carry/slayer designed to fuck up ADCs? Was there any point in league history when you could? There was? Great. Thats absolute heresy. It should have never happened.

I also have no idea how person playing in dia/master can say that mages can do everything adc doing but better. is that troll? I mean... you whole post looks kinda like that... Are you drunk mb?

What the fact that melee champion has more mobility/hp/resists than some ADCs has to do with anything?

Lord Malpercio9 votes

Nah. No one's really complaining that ADCs aren't balanced. ADCs are mad they can't 100-0 with just Shiv+IE anymore, in a very burst oriented meta.

ADCs are better than ever at actually being ADCs, which is providing constant DPS past the 40 min mark.

Games aren't lasting 40 mins though. Hell, a god damn event quest was to win a game in 30 minutes, which is considered average.

Games are being decided at 10-20 minutes in, and it's sad. That's why ADCs aren't working, because the games simply do not last that long. Weaker turrets, rift herald, dragons, easier baron, and all the infinite sources of damage in the game are all racking up into a domino effect. ADCs cannot function as ADCs due to the speed of the games.

Hayaishi9 votes

"We all spent 4 years complaining adcs were mandatory"

Didn't know the Anti adc circlejerk's opinion counted as everyone else's now.

saltran2 votes

And 4 years why? I didn't know that around S4 ppl started to want non adc botlanes.

2Charmnot2Charm6 votes

And now that there is variety in the botlane

Only because riot gutted the hell out of crit adc's, people are better of picking early-mid game marksmen or mages so they can have a say in how the game goes instead of not being useful to the team till late game...which is barely ever reached cause games are decided long before that point.

Colgate Gator5 votes

Being fair, now it's the ADC side's turn to complain.

ChargeItDownMid5 votes

[deleted]

RainXBlade2 votes

But hey, at least they had fun during the Ardent Censer meta, amirite?

Kai Guy4 votes

Auto attack champions are braindead. Ability biased champions feel bad because theres no reward for landing your skills when some one can just right click and kill you.

Ability's have an increase in damage if only because there is a removal of stat ball runes to provide all champion classes free defensive stats.

OMG DAMAGE 2 HIGH YOU DIE TO ABILITYS 2 FAST WHEN SOME ONE LANDS THEIR COMBOS.

Right click champions are Trash into WTF AAtrox rework is Trash he is supposed to right click on things!

Jungle has to much impact on early game.

EXP and Gold redistribution, clear time changes.

Jungle Is shit now WTF BBQ Skuttle changes remove your relevance if you don't go for them early and now I cant gank lanes.

ADCS OP WTF

Nerfs to crit

ADCS UP WTF

SUPPORTS AND SHEILDS MAKE THIS GAME BRAINDEAD.

Anti shield mechanics get added, GW gets put on more items.

WTF RITO WHY NERF ENCHANTERS TO THE GROUND + WTF DOES EVERY NEW CHAMPION NEED OP ANTI SHEILDS Irelia Pyke Aatrox

This is not really the player base being hypocritical thou, just that we have such a massive # of players any change will upset some and then they upset folks become the more vocal ones.

Lets have shrex3 votes

ADC aren't mendatory anymore, neither bad. It's just adc mains bitching they can't 3 shot anymore with 2 items

Whisper873 votes

Um...there is a lot riot can do. For instance, they can just nerf adc items. Or just accelerate game pace, or just buff things that are good at killing ADC's. Riot did all the in the space of 1 split. I have no problem with nerfing ADC so that every game doesn't feel dependent on their performance, and allowing variety in the bot lane. I love variety from game to game and if anything I think this game is far too formulaic right now (primarily due to snowball mechanics and game pacing but thats a conversation for elsewhere), but it's a pretty serious thing to just blast an entire class out of existence with several large changes in a short period of time. Riot has this issue of looking at their changes in a vacuum, then pushing them live to see how it pans out. It feels like they don't attempt to understand how the changes will compound, instead they just think of a decent idea, push it live, and watch sparks fly, then dial it back. In my opinion Riot should save all large scale patches for the off season and relegate all patches during the season to hotfixes and number tweaks. I mean for real there what, 3 marksmen who are valuable sometimes? It feels ok because salt has been thrown at ADC so much over the past year or two, but think if we did that to other classes. "oh, the only traditional supports who are viable now are Alistar, Braum, and Lulu the rest are all trash and you'd be better off playing mages", "oh, if you're playing a tank it better be Sejuani or Ornn, maybe Olaf here and there, otherwise you better just play a fighter and hope you can out mechanic your opponent".

Limiting options is almost never the right choice. Don't do it to our champ pool, don't do it to how we can win the game. Let us have our freedom Riot!

Azeranth1 votes

accelerate game pace

doesn't work. A champion doesn't scale faster, just because the game is ending sooner. Shorter games don't mean steeper scaling, and even if it did, it would mean the game is terrible for early game champions. A game can go on forever, but early game ends eventually. If you truly did adjust the scaling so that it matched the game length changes, then early game champions would be useless by 8 minutes. That isn't fair to those champions.

Not to mention, the countless things like back timers, time returning to lane, the time required for the jungler to walk between camps. Even if you increased gold and xp to just make everything happen faster, there are still some totally unavoidable things that cause gaps of time in the game. These gaps of time, when combined with the compressed scaling you propose, is like an unevenly inflated ballon. Even if the whole thing has the right amount of air, some parts are overstretched, and are gonna burst, THen the whole balloon is worthless and unfun.

Whisper871 votes

I'm sorry, it was a poor choice of words when I said accelerate game pace. What I meant was get aggression going earlier. Typically (I believe) when caster refer to accelerating game pace they are talking about teams breaking down lane phase and forcing skirmishes, invades, lane swaps, and forcing teams who want to play slower to fight over and defend things NOW. Maybe accelerating the aggression is a more accurate term. Forcing high levels of interaction before a auto attacking physical damage ADC comes online, or before things like Azir and Orianna hit their stride.

To be clear, Riot has already done this. If the game is perfectly balanced, in a game that matches the average game length, roughly 1/3 will be early, 1/3 mid, and 1/3 late game. When game pace has been accelerated (like it is now), the game is almost always ending in the mid game. So when you look at like team fight meta where teams are scaling up and aren't fighting at full power until like the 28 minute mark, Riot did not just dial it back a bit to make ealry/mid game snowball more viable. They did a complete 180 and made it MOST viable.

They need to stop with the "time to shine/moment of glory/flavor of the week" style patches. If the community is complaining about one style being too strong and the other being too weak, DO NOT NERF ONE INTO THE GROUND AND/OR BUFF THE OTHER INTO THE SPOTLIGHT. Incorporate incremental changes over time that address the specific complaints about what makes certain styles too strong. Something I've been saying a lot recently is that Riot kind of seems to look at their changes in a vacuum. Here's a couple examples:

Current state of ADC: people complained because crit adc scale so hard, but they also were buffed to come online fairly well in the mid game, making it feel like they were always the primary carry/win condition. Their late game is only OP because their mid is still pretty strong, so it doesn't feel like an even trade off. So instead of implementing their list of crit ADC changes one at a time to find that sweet spot, they completely gutted ADC mid game aaaaand gutted early game even harder, and all of this very shortly after buffing things that excel at killing ADC's. No one change they made was bad alone, and I actually think most were really smart. The new fighter keystone and the changes to IE i think in particular were really smart. The problem is that Riot just unleashed hell on marksmen all at once without waiting to see how each change would affect the climate of the game. Change for the sake of change is gross.

Same thing happened to poke comps. People complained it was not fun to get chunked for 25% or more of your HP from off screen over and over throughout the duration of the game, and that it was lame how just catching one low cd skill shot to the face could end a confrontation before it even started. You wouldn't get a chance to fight because it was already a bad idea, so you just get poked off and chased down and eventually out sieged and econ so that the game kind of just ends without a ton of fighting. Now poke comps are basically unheard of. Why? Because instead of taking their list of ideas and implementing them one at a time, they the book at it. Nerfed mana stuff, nerfed poke damage champs/items, buffed engage items, buffed assassins, gave the homeguard enchantment as a built in mechanic so folks could heal and return to the siege site faster. Again, change for the sake of change is gross. Find a unified vision for the game that does not completely eliminate certain styles of play and build around that. Establish a skeleton and build the flesh around that.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

"we" dont complain.

its just adc mains who cant get used to the new matchups and power curves and blame their incompetence on the state of the game.

marksmen still make up, what? 8 out of 10 strongest picks on bot lane? there is absolutely no evidence that "they get pushed out of the game" as many claim.

objectively it doesnt even matter if we have bot lane diversity now or not. what they really cant cope with is that bot lane and crit marksmen were horrendously overpowered, they needed a nerf anyways and now theyre back to a reasonable state with their scaling.

Akali is SO HOT3 votes

The only people complaining are the salty ADC players nobody else.

Meep Man3 votes

Don't act like the WE you are referring to is a conscious hivemind. The League community is made of different people.

Solidair33 votes

The problem people are having is not that they want marksmen to not be mandatory, that's great. What they want is for marksmen to be a viable option. And right now, they arguably are not. I've still had some success with marksmen, but bruisers and mages seem to be better options in several cases now.

The problem is that they shouldn't be better cases. They should be equivalent. And that sort of balance is hard to do, but Riot is trying it out. Hopefully, we'll get to a point where bottom lane is inhabited by all manner of champion in (relatively) equal parts from multiple champion classes.

R31W1NG1 votes

{quoted}

The problem people are having is not that they want marksmen to not be mandatory, that's great. What they want is for marksmen to be a viable option. And right now, they arguably are not. I've still had some success with marksmen, but bruisers and mages seem to be better options in several cases now.

The problem is that they shouldn't be better cases. They should be equivalent. And that sort of balance is hard to do, but Riot is trying it out. Hopefully, we'll get to a point where bottom lane is inhabited by all manner of champion in (relatively) equal parts from multiple champion classes.

see here's the thing... it's far too early to decide that its not an issue of the marksman players adapting to being balanced as they've been used being a requisite to insure victory(read "broken").

Snowdrift3 votes

Diversity is fine if more than a few marksman were actually able to compete with it. There’s a reason there are so many funneling strats in pro to help marksmen reach their spikes quicker. To be able to play a marksman in soloq in the current meta it is a major coin flip with odds greatly stacked against me. I am aware I need to farm but often times teammates don’t allow for this and ganks end up with them taking the kills on top of staying around for 1-2 waves of my minions :/

I’ve had wonderful games with a team that wants to work around my weak early game and I come back with my spike but they really need to further mess with crit items. The recent zeal change; lowering the cost of brawlers gloves but not adjusting the zeal combine cost really wasn’t noticeable.

Not to mention the constant harassment in champ select for not picking a bruiser that I’ve constantly been having to deal with. I literally had a team while I was playing jinx and my top and mid were saying from champ select and into over half of the game in all chat that it was gg because I picked a marksman... I ended up carrying and their attitude changed in the end game lobby...

saltran1 votes

Diversity is fine if more than a few marksman were actually able to compete with it.

The problem is that the "diversity" is there literally only because only a few marksman are able to compete with the mages.

heroikc2 votes

"If anything ever does kill league, its going to be the indecisiveness of its own playerbase when it comes to gameplay changes."

Love that logic, because that is probably what's happening right now. Would even emote if the situation were not so bad...

Hammermancer2 votes

Honestly i dont care for adcs but i do empathize with a class being made useless barring a few exceptions

I always thought that a majority of adcs could be adjusted to be better in solo lanes instead of just as bot laners

The class would then be diverse

My approach to this could be as follows

A buff to.scimitar for mid laners,

For top laners we have seen cleaver be largely dropped in higher elos in favor of triforce and conqueror... therefore we could argue that cleaver could keeps its passive but offer the attack speed from item 3101 and that triforce could offer the phage passive, sheen, and a kindlegem.

There would have to be an item placed in for riven or jayce but otherwise the majority of the rest of the cleaver roster would have some amount of a buff.. besides these champions need their itemization looked at anyways with riven being weak and jayce synergizing too well with lethality to the point that a minor metashift sees him qe 1shotting with one very specific build

Tear and muramana get 10% cdr, unaffecting archangels due to the haste passive

Wits end could get a minor buff,

The impprtance of crit is an issue that needz to be addressed. Id propose replacing crit with more complex item mechanics as opposed to %damage increase on every aa. Items like sheen and phage are good examples due to them giving indirect power which allows skillful players to make more out of them

Displaced champions would need immediate support, such as if darius gets forced out of top lane he could gain base movespeed or additional damage on q to monsters (that was a shallow thought dont overthink it)

Ranged jungle items for early clear would be nice, possibly consider an 1100ish item that builds into ruunans granting a 2 shot effect

Adc 1v1 itemization to be fleshed out,

Also i stress: frozen mallet bad: phage good

Frozen mallet offers a direct and percentage based nerf, while the slow is less unhealthy on rylais or iceborn, it is noticeably toxic when every auto attack slows

Assassins would need tools to handle these buffs as well, id suggest offering assassins some alternative itemization which would allow them to deal with shields and cleanses by having more but smaller bursts with more sustain in exchange for single all-in shots (think rhaast vs shadow assassin)

We need a return to rock paper scissors base format on classes (there was a wheel chart once upon a time) but we need items that allow the direct counter to be negated without beibg a magic counter reversal.. so to make you stand a chance against your counter not to just shut them down

Finally, we need more support options for non-adcs. And i mean real support options.. not just velkoz xerath bot lane vs rengar ivern depebding on your favorite type of cheese

Azeranth1 votes

Yeah, there would totally be no problem with that. Ranged hyper carries who could alsp hold their own 1v1 against mobile champions. Hoo Wee, I'd love to see that. Ttotally wouldn't be super frustrating and cancerous and make the game a 1v1 with 8 spectators

Hyquiem2 votes

Eh.. the term best used is spoiled player base but then again not everyone adds up to it, the game would be in a better state if adc mains actually farmed, instead of being an assasin and lacking farm. Adcs don’t even understand that they aren’t suppose to be upfront super strong.. they are suppose to power farm, instead they want to have an endless FPS death match, people are loosing it b/c they feed assasins so easily. The games at the point where if you make a dumb choice you will me half an equator away from winning.

The player base starts lacking strategy, instead they just want to delete hp bars and make their mains op. Until they see strategy they complain b/c they don’t have the ability to do it.

As in moral standards jealousy is extreme in league, when it even happens on teams. Instead of helping someone else snowball they keep it all. It’s at the point where if league dies, it’s going to die b/c it’s player base became spoiled.

Malix Farwin2 votes

We aren't complaining, ADC mains are.

Malix Farwin2 votes

Every Role has experience one time or another being weak in a meta, except ADC. Till now. I mean Tanks are not in the meta and crying far less than ADCs right now, that should tell you how entitled they think they are. Worst part is not only are there still some ADCs that are in the meta, they are strong in it. Really what it comes down to is people not wanting to play ADC and opting into something else. Riot wants ADC to be perfectly viable but they also do not want ADC to be the only option down there and i am sure everyone knew how tough this would be going ahead. In the long run though i think its a good thing that they are trying to keep non-adc as an option.

Sire Hippington2 votes

The usually thing: different people have differnet opininons, and usually those that are currently unhappy rais their voice and come complaining. Though a big thing also might be that people fail to differentiat between the current state of the game and the variety in botlane.

I for one love that we have variety in bot, and i also don't think that adc are dead in any way, but sadly that's about the only thing i like about the current state of the game. I still complain about the way to high damage, about the poor state of vision, about CC creep, how usless tank items feel later into the game, overall powercreep, the poor design of many new releases/reworks, most reworks as they don't give a fuck about the champ and are instead are delete and replace, and snowballing though that's mostly a sideeffect caused by all the other issues....

Saggitairre2 votes

This post is totally untrue. Every season they nerf the current OP and instead of just leaving things to see how they play out, they instead transfer that power to another role. Tanks are too strong?...Nerf them and dump power into ADCs....OH ADCs are too strong now, so then nerf them and buff assassins. They need to stop taking from one role and dumping extra power into another.

They need to just flat across the board tone down the damage. Defensive stats (mostly armor) are pretty much useless at this point due to all the true damage. Once all the excessive damage in this game is under control, it would be a much easier thing to then just adjust tank damage and stats to bring them inline with everything else.

This constant circle of just adding damage and transferring power from one class to another every season will not fix anything.

Vectros1 votes

I for one embrace the current state. It's a breath of fresh air from the ADC ruling that has happened for the life of this game.

That's not to say at some point something should be done, but I think some time should be given to let it mellow out.

Also ADC's aren't completely useless as a lot of people like to say. Crit ADC's are the ones that are struggling, but even then a couple of them are still working.

Malix Farwin1 votes

ADC circlejerks have hijacked the thread, best move on.

5050BS1 votes

No I like the bot lane being different. The issue is all the other stuff that was an issue when it was just ADC botlane.

Ryrynounet1 votes

Who complain ? Haa I get it you mean Adcs complaint that their classes isn't the number one

Azeranth1 votes

If RIot would buff towers, Marksmen would be viable and most everything would be fine, but riot has mental issues and refuses, because it doesnt matter if games suck, as long as theyre under 20 minutes

saltran2 votes

Not really since an AP can deal with turrets (almost) as fast as an adc.

Azeranth2 votes

Its not a question of "ADC need to be useful for tower killing" its because the game ends at 20 minutes. Marksmen aren't made to carry at 20 minutes, and they shouldn't be. THe game needs to last longer

i cant move wtf1 votes

Bro you're trying to make the boards self-aware. The arrogance. If you want to keep your sanity maybe try to make your computer self-aware, there seems to at least be a chance of success there with actual benefits for humanity.

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