Lets have a real talk about the LOL community

Jeanne fan club··38 votes·2,476 views

This post WILL get many dislikes

Before we start, I want everyone to come with an open mind, and the "Blame myself instead of others" mentality. I want people to seriously think about how they act towards aspects of this game.

I AM NOT IMMUNE TO ANYTHING I HAVE TO SAY IN THIS POST, I AM JUST LIKE EVERY ONE OF YOU GUYS.

Its hard to start this post, really because there is so much to talk about. Might as well start with what the community thinks of as "balanced"

Just a thought experiment, If everyone got their way, and champions like Yasuo , Fizz or Zed got nerfed to the ground like a large portion of the League community wants them to, then will the game be balanced, in their eyes at least? Keep in mind, if those champions end up with 40% winrates, will the community then see them as "balanced"? Will the community then say that another champion is overpowered? Now that the annoying assassins are gone, who will be left to police the immobile mages, like Syndra or Annie ?? Will they become OP too? and if they do become OP then will the community want them to be nerfed to the ground as well? How about every little change that a buff or a nerf to a champions makes for the rest of the champions and items in the game. You nerf tanks, there is no one to survive assassins or burst mages is there? You nerf adc's, then who is there to melt the tanks? Every little change has a reaction to the rest of the champions and items, regardless how small it is. This is part of the reason Riot says they want to try and rotate op's, they can't really create perfect balance, so they simulate it by making changes that kind of just rotate who is good and who is bad. True balance in this game will never objectively exist, its a subjective matter so everyone thinks of balance differently. I for one, think that this patch right now is probably the most stable patch this season. Changes in the next patch will be very nice however so I'm not going to stand on my statement.

It definitely isn't fair to view the League of Legends community as a collective. The League of Legends community is full of individuals with different ideas on what balance "ought" to be. So with a community where everyone thinks that they know what balance is, who is right, and who is wrong? Balance is subjective, and everyone thinks differently on it. Riot, unfortunately, has the task of trying to make everyone happy. One positive to a certain group of people is a negative to another. Buffing assassins for example. The assassin players will be happy, while the immobile/squishy players will be upset.

Unfortunately, people will refuse to understand that certain champions have advantages over other champions. People don't want to have the mobile assassins outdamage and outplay the immobile mages in a 1v1 early in the game. And they really don't want the assassins to be able to snowball because of that. Riot take into account that a skilled mage player should be able to outplay a bad assassin player. That's why counters don't necessarily exist in this game like they do in dota or something like that. There is nothing wrong with that, however it creates a gap between champs with high and low skillcaps. which in turn, means that the higher you go up the ladder, the less champs get played, which is what we see in the LCS.

People always complain about the LCS not having diverse picks. The truth of the matter is that there are no real counters in this game. In a game with no counters, you pick who you are best with. Some champions are better than others once you hit their skill ceilings. The best Gangplank player will always win more games than the best Teemo player, just by nature of gangplank being able to do more with his kit. That's just the way the game works. There are only theoretical counters, and they are pretty insignificant when skill ends up being the deciding factor in games.

Overall, I feel like the community does not have the best idea of what balance is, mainly because everyone has a different idea of what it should be. I'd imagine that's the main reason Riot is taking change very slowly. Riot are trying to piece together every statistic and come up with ideas that will nudge champions into where they think that they should be. It just isn't as simple as "lower these numbers" or "gut this champion." As I said before, every change has a reaction. A nerf to Viktor Q for example would hinder his effectiveness against close range enemies, meaning ALL close range enemies in the game would get a "buff" if they are against him. It is also important to remember that Riot has a subjective idea of what balance should be as well, and they need to take this into account when it comes to champion changes, which in my opinion, they have done well with recently (except for Sona ). There are obviously more changes that they need to make to stabilize the game even more.

TL:DR : Balance is subjective There is no "true balance", nor is it possible in a game like this There are no "true counters" because skill in this game is a more prominent feature, however, that makes champions with high skill caps naturally better than champs with lower skill caps. ^ LCS players know this and chose from a small pool because of it. Riot has to take into consideration a LOT before they make any changes.

The other thing I want the community to think about is how they treat eachother, and Riot themselves.

I'm going to be blunt here, If I was Riot, I would not be excited to come to work only to see hate from everybody who has a different opinion on how the game should be. Every day there are posts about Dynamic queue sucking and the usual "gut this champion" post that every board user has seen already. However, when Riot does do something Really good, like hextech crafting for example, they don't get any recognition for it. I don't know about anyone else, but in the last week I have gotten at least 4 1820 rp skin shards from boxes (with a couple augment caches thrown in there). Look at every other F2P game. CSGO for example, you play like 10 games for a 7 cent skin. League on the other hand definatly requires a bit more commitment, but you get the chests and key shards. And you have a much higher probability of getting an expensive skin. The hextech crafting system is the best crafting system/get free stuff system in any existing F2P game. (^I went on a bit of a tangent here) Riot really just doesn't get a lot of credit for their work. People are so fast to criticize their work, when a lot of the time they don't really have a good idea to fix it.

The community is no better to itself. I see people calling each other boosted animals for using dynamic queue, or bad players for playing support a lot. I see people trying to create divisions in this community because of those reasons as well. Its disappointing that people act like this to each other. Aren't we all league players? Can't we all just get along lol? Either way, It really seems like the community is blowing things that Riot does out of proportion. Dynamic queue for example, People have blown that WAY out of proportion. Its gotten to the point where Solo's are trying to separate themselves from people who use dynamic queue. As a Solo player who doesn't mind Dynamic queue, I really don't think that dynamic queue is the problem. In fact, I seem to do much better when I'm alone as opposed to when I queue up with a friend. And TBH, it seems like all the feeders I get are solo Pref players, so go figure. I don't want to be called a solo pref or dynamic pref player, I want to be called a League player.

Another point about the community tearing itself apart. This community seems to go on a witch hunt about every month about who is the most op champion, then demonize the mains of that champion when they try to share their opinion. It really seems like people are more interested in sitting in an echo chamber rather than actually debate about the champion.

TLDR : The LOL community shows Riot no appreciation when they do something good, but are quick to demonize them when they do something bad The LOL community tears itself apart over many issues The LOL community tends to go on champion witch hunts without wanting to hear the opposing opinion on that champion. Overall, I think people are being too critical towards each other, and are trying to create more and more divides between themselves. Riot is getting no appreciation for what they do right, but overwhelming criticism for when they screw up.

I want everyone who made it this far to seriously consider what I have said. I am guilty of this stuff as well. I do not hate the League of legends community, I am simply criticizing it. If its ok to criticize Riot, then its ok to criticize the community. I genuinely want everyone to start considering both sides to champion arguments, and start appreciating the good parts about this game, rather than just obsess over its shortcomings. I don't want this community to keep separating itself due to arbitrary titles such as "boosted monkey".

Have a nice day :)

Edit: It is important to call Riot out on things that end up becoming completely broken, like the Sona or Malz rework. The PBE is a limited community with many changes coming in at one time, so there is not enough control for the variables in place. We need to make sure we do our part in the balancing cycle.

40 Comments

Obscene Elbows7 votes

Wow long ass post. Well let me counter that with another:

I don't think balance is subjective, but it is however impossible. If the game was magically perfectly balanced then every champ would have a 50% winrate and a 1 in 131 pickrate across every division. But how do you do that? simply you cant, Kat will always be bad at high elo because she is too simple and easy for a skilled player to counter and leblanc will always be bad at low elo because a lot of players just dont have the mechanical skill. It really doesn't help that every time sombody gets oneshot by a fed Zed (heh rhymes) they run to the forums screaming for nerfs.

This doesn't mean that Riot is always the good guy though. We all know how much they love to get that sweet sweet rp dosh and at the end of the day they are a business and are interested in profit above all else.

As for the cesspool that is the LoL community? Well all multiplayer games have various levels of toxicity and everybody thinks they are an expert (VMP from CoD needs to be banned, Bastion from Overwatch is OP. The list goes on) the thing is, from their perspective they are right. Would i complain if Lux got nerfed? Hell no, she is cancer to me. Do i think she is OP? Yes. Against me personally, I really struggle when facing her. We all have champs that give us trouble. I do really think that Riot is doing as best as they can but its an impossible task to make everybody happy.

My 2 cents anyway (sorry if its a bit incoherent, i am quite tired)

Jeanne fan club2 votes

Ah, let me rephrase myself. Balance as an Idea is objective. Balance to an individual is subjective. For example, you think Lux is OP, I think that she is fine where she is. Our subjective ideas on what balance is are different in that aspect. That is what I was trying to say.

You are 100% right on Kat, Leblanc and Zed.

I don't think I made myself clear on riots position, I think ill go back and edit that after I finish this post. I don't think they are the good guy. However, I do think that it is in their best interest to try and appease everyone to keep bringing in that sweet rp dosh. The only way a business gets money is if they provide a service that's better than the competition. Making the game fun and "balanced" for everyone is how they get more money from rp purchases. I veiw Riot from a neutral perspective. They are trying their best to complete their subjective vision of "balance" while trying to take into account others subjective view on "balance" as well. In the end, there are no good or bad guys. Its all neutral.

I think its ok to struggle against matchups. The biggest part of the game is getting better right? The problem comes when people refuse to learn the matchup and are more content with that champion getting nerfed, rather than them actually getting better at the game.

Obscene Elbows2 votes

Don't get me wrong, i absolutely agree with you. It always will be easier for people to winge about a champ being op than get stomped till you learn to counter play. As for Lux, that was my point exactly. I hate playing against her, if somebody uses Lux against me it is an easy win but that doesn't mean she is op in general. I know some people want EVERY champ to be relevant at all skill levels but i for one know for sure that without Garen or Warwick existing i would have given up on League long ago

Dengeden1 votes

Sure they won't hesitate to create cool features that players will want to spend RP on but they mostly do this by trying to make the game as enjoyable as possible. With new log-in screens, by hyping up a skin line and by listening to the community about balance (without throwing it out the window completely).

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Worth as a comparison: In DOTA2's TI6 right now, almost every single character has been picked at least once. "XYZ will always be bad" doesn't really hold weight when you consider that another game with a roughly similar amount of heroes.(Like...110 or so? One is disabled during TI6 because he's new I believe) that can balance them in a fairly good, diverse way. Even the simple heroes like Sven or Wraith King get picked because of what they can bring.

It's not to disparage League, considering their pick rates have actually gotten better as time goes on, but to say that "balance is impossible" when another game of the same genre gets so very close is pretty silly.

Obscene Elbows1 votes

Whilst people often compare the games like they are almost identical, DOTA 2 is a paper-scissors-rock based game and counters are HUGE which would make the balance slightly easier when combined with the lack of regard for new players (or at least that's how it was last i played years ago). As everybody being picked, well how often are every hero picked? all the same-ish amount or were there 56 heroes picked less than 10 times and 5 picked more than 50? Those stats also don't take counterpicks into account or very situational choices. Just because they were all picked doesn't make Lion (70 picks, 61% winrate) equal to Tinker (who had a 0% winrate and never banned btw)

Not trying to shit-talk DOTA but it's balance has just as many issues.

(Stats from the Asia Championship 2015 in case you were wondering)

Astôlfo7 votes

People cry too much about champions being OP or whatnot, those things are irrelevant. Games like this shouldn't ever be balanced anyways, that's better for game design. Also, perfect diversity is pointless, because it means each champion would be at like what, 0.66% playrate? Making every single champion viable with that many champions is a waste of time and it wouldn't work either.

Champions are fairly balanced right now. There's always like 1-2 champions that end up incredibly broken from random bad tweaks, but those get fixed fairly quickly. Almost every champion in the game is balanced. People complaining otherwise are more or less wrong.

With a game with roles like this, counters are inherent. Counters are not an automatic determination of winning or losing against said matchup. They just make it harder/easier. It's like Pokemon for instance. Sure, you can fight a Fire type as a Grass type, or heck, even a Grass and Ice type (super effective). It's not going to be easy, that's for sure. It doesn't mean you automatically lose. Same thing with Water type against Fire type. Sure, it's going to be a lot more in your favor. It still doesn't mean you're going to automatically win. Same general concept applies to League.

I fully agree with your post. Nice job to you sir/madam. +1

Jeanne fan club3 votes

I am a trigender octogon, respect my pronouns please Jk i'm a dude :)

You are definitely right that balance is impossible in a game like this. There are too many variables for balance of outcome. At least everyone gets the choice to play whoever is slightly stronger/broken.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Jhin and Ashe broken atm. Those are the two champs i'd finally want to see nerfed again. But riot loves their adcs.

DeathBot6662 votes

Yes.

This is the point of this thread.

Good job.

Leetri1 votes

~0.7% right now I believe, counting Kled. About as often as Top Mordekaiser is played.

DevilishMetal4 votes

I remember I saw a post once, where a guy's grand idea for perfect balance was making every champ able to 1v1 every champ.

Like... That's... Not how that works...

Jeanne fan club3 votes

Lets be real here, Soraka should definitely be able to 1v1 Fizz and win. d:) Kappa

Melledoneus1 votes

Soraka THE BANANA COMPELS YOU! Fiora No, my bagueeeeeette!

ChaosThief2 votes

Never underestimate full AP soraka man. That stuff is nightmare fuel.

Terozu1 votes

And in top lane... OH GOD! [slayer-pantheon-rainbows]

Itankyou3 votes

Riot is the best gaming company in the world. Period.

Just look at what happened with EA Games and the buffunory that was Command and Conquer Tiberium Wars. They gutted that franchise for fast $$$. Everyone at Riot deserves the communities utmost respect. This is why we flame them in the forums because without the flames the work gets cold [slayer-pantheon-thumbs] . Stay Classy Riot.

LeadedWolf3 votes

Sona + New update = Broken Why I say that is I main her and she can now MID with no problem and with her.. That's impressive yet disturbing.. Guess you could say New Meta?

Jeanne fan club2 votes

I dont think the new update made her mid good. They nerfed her damage. Id say that her mid was better before, when her damage was higher.

LeadedWolf1 votes

Its still good now, have you met a person who plays mid with her now?

Terozu1 votes

I have, I was kat, she was dead :)

Micbran3 votes

People think it's so easy to balance... And just like you said, changing one thing on a meta pick/meta item can skew everything. I think the Riot balance team (usually) does a good job.

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

It really is painful to watch the community blame Riot for every tiny problem that they have. Heck, it's gotten to the point where people will twist and turn to blame Riot for everything, even if it was logical or smart, or even if Riot had nothing to do with it.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

Some of these people deserve gold medals for mental gymnastics

Wazoom1 votes

Teemo

Witch of Babylon2 votes

I am nothing.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

same

RianDuong1 votes

I can respect that

Marshbouy2 votes

I've wanted to make a post like this but never had the energy to. Good job man, great post.

Jeanne fan club2 votes

I sat and listened to music for a solid 2 hours before I finally decided to make this post. I guess it was worth the half hour it took to write :)

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

If every single champion (130+) had a 50% win rate and every single champion was viable in his or her own way, the top complaint would be that there is too much to ban.

Kingnewgameplus1 votes

While I agree that not everything is riot's fault, you do need to call them out when they do fuck up, otherwise the game goes nowhere.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

Yes of course, I should probably clarify that in my post.

WoonStruck1 votes

Most of my balance complaints have to do with itemization, dragons, towers, etc.

Most of them do not have anything to do with champions. Jhin, Ashe, Malz, cait trap duration are my only champion complaints.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Atleast one noticing how absurdly broken adcs are right now. 20-25% playrate with 53-55% winrate and lowest games played on average on jhin and ashe alone. Imagine azir, zed or yasuo with this kind of stats. The boards would explode.

jaymc11301 votes

Ayyy! Look whos posting!

Interesting thread mate. Worth the read. Not that I fully agree with every thing in it, but it makes some points that are certainly undeniable. Good to see you, I know I haven't been on some of my accounts recently, but I hope things have been progressing well for you this season. Always happy to see my students come into their own and start making contributions that can benefit the game and community.

Dengeden1 votes

I should add that vision is something of an equalizer because denying it allows you to hide your moves from the opponent. So the best Teemo might be able to beat the best Gangplank if he gets the drop on him like that or leaves his line of sight. Provided of course, that GP guesses Teemo's intentions incorrectly.

Also, thank you for using that Viktor Q example, although there's a more prominent one out there: -5 AD. So many people treated that simple nerf a joke without considering that -5AD on every AA or AD-scaling ability you use in a single game stacks up rather quickly.

JerulEon1 votes

Real talk I liked your post. I can really agree that Riot's hextech crafting system - while sometimes annoying/complicated - is freaking awesome and free items are great. I also agree that this patch is actually somewhat balanced. There aren't many must-ban champions for me. One thing I do hope for tho, is for Riot to revisit some their failed juggernaut update. This community is pretty toxic but I try to be the part that doesn't contribute to it even though I do jump the bandwagon sometimes. Well said.

Swaid1 votes

See, I rarely complain about champions being overpowered.

What I do complain about is champions being downright annoying to fight or champions that require a very specific style of play to defeat.

Gnar for example I personally loath because he mechanically is very annoying to deal with and I'm not even talking about his giant form (I think that is perfectly fine, I actually prefer fighting Gnar's giant form); I'm talking about Gnar's annoying and oppressive regular form where he auto-attacks and uses a harass spell, both which are free to use besides attack speed and one cooldown, on top of an easily used escape ability. Gnar is the sole reason that while I enjoy playing Singed, I end up picking Dr. Mundo more often so I can deal with the little bastard. Do I find Gnar overpowered? No, I can usually manage him, but I find him extremely annoying in design.

Elikain1 votes

I wouldn't say Sona or Malzahar were broken, just overtuned. Sona has gone through PBE cycles that didn't get released and whoever worked on her kept iterating until people players and testers over there were satisfied with the results.

Malzahar had too much emphasis on the voidlings and he was able to take down targets and objectives with just this ability alone. And having a free 1 second Banshee passive proved to be a quite a long time to wait it out as when he gets it, you cannot engage on him because of his innate CC and damage. And he could freely walk out of ganks without the use of his summs.

In the end, the sheer number of champions and items is the exact reason why the game is hard to balance but we should never hope this will ever happen. The game is much more fun when something new gets discovered and certain champions that were never played get suddenly into the fray with the rest of the meta slaves.

Meta exists not only on SR, but on TT, ARAM and RGM queue. It's not going away. Riot genuinely cares about this game, which is proven with 2 week patches and the game needs these balance chances quite often.

I'd say that even if they paatched the game with every champion release, people would themselves find ways to play with or against certain champions and meta would still exist, but it would be a lot slower and completely dependent on the community to function.

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