True damage alone is an annoying mechanic in my opinion, but why the hell does Vayne and Fiora, more specifically Vayne, get this in their kit? You cannot stack health or itemize against it. There should be a maximum amount of true damage that a Vayne can do, or some kind of nerf.
FantasySniper5 votes
requires double the hits from your opponent to proc on-hit effects.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oEOBX6jWa3Q/T2phrtPzKyI/AAAAAAAAAAM/bT8C7GfxUvY/s1600/FIXED.jpg
MrTortellíní1 votes
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oEOBX6jWa3Q/T2phrtPzKyI/AAAAAAAAAAM/bT8C7GfxUvY/s1600/FIXED.jpg
come again?
Jack Off My Box1 votesI think he's suggesting adding that as a new passive to frozen heart. "On-hit effects now take twice as many hits to effect you" I guess.
FantasySniper1 votesAny on-hit effect would take another hit to proc it. All those 3-hit passives would take 6, BotRK would only proc every other attack, so on and so forth. The only "abuse cases" would be Nasus and Twisted Fate because of their high-impact on-hit effects, but the armor on it should be nerfed to compensate in the first place.
Critmaster Garen3 votes
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oEOBX6jWa3Q/T2phrtPzKyI/AAAAAAAAAAM/bT8C7GfxUvY/s1600/FIXED.jpg
here is the problem with the attack speed slows argument against vayne.
her q is an auto attack reset, and her e applies her w passive aswell. if she just gets 1 auto attack off against you, she can immediately tumble and hit you with her knockback (preferably) into a wall and chunk you with her true damage, as she got 3 stacks off in under a second.
attack speed slows only work limited against her, since her q artificially increases her attack speed. and that cant be stopped. halfway decent vaynes will make use of this and tumble between auto attacks to increase their attack speed.
imo silver bolts is a much more frustrating ability than fioras passive. because at least fiora has to come into arms length where you have a chance to hit her and fight back. you can also look for safety between your teammates. she takes a much larger risk in skirmishes and teamfights to go in and trigger that passive.
i should mention here, that im mainly talking about fioras intended playstyle as a squishy glass cannon, and no the bruiser build shes been running before her recent nerfs.
with vayne, she can just chunk whoever is in front of her while sitting behind the protection of a support and a tank. never mind, that shes a strong 1v1 champion with a load of self peel to begin with, but with even halfway proper protection, its much easier for her to get her true damage off than it is for fiora.
since the rageblade changes, im actually gonna ban vayne now whenever possible. its hard to say what kind of an impact the item will have on her and how strong it really is. but im not taking any chances with that champ.
Quepha8 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j9HVvYVU,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-05-08T08:05:30.621+0000)
her q is an auto attack reset, and her e applies her w passive aswell. if she just gets 1 auto attack off against you, she can immediately tumble and hit you with her knockback (preferably) into a wall and chunk you with her true damage, as she got 3 stacks off.
Does silver bolts deal 100% hp true damage? No. It deals 12% true damage, you still have 88% of your life left. Not much more of Vayne's damage is true damage compared to champions like Twitch and Vel'koz, and Olaf deals a much larger chunk of his damage as true.
Most of Vayne's damage can still be itemized against and all Vayne has is lategame damage against tanks. She is very nonthreatening early on, can't pressure a lane on her own with her complete lack of waveclear, builds for dps instead of burst so she can't really assassinate unless she is ridiculously farther ahead than she should be, and even in the late game she can't actually attack from a safe vantage point due to her mediocre attack range and complete lack of abilities that deal damage outside of it.
Critmaster Garen4 votesDoes silver bolts deal 100% hp true damage? No. It deals 12% true damage, you still have 88% of your life left. Not much more of Vayne's damage is true damage compared to champions like Twitch and Vel'koz, and Olaf deals a much larger chunk of his damage as true.
Most of Vayne's damage can still be itemized against and all Vayne has is lategame damage against tanks. She is very nonthreatening early on, can't pressure a lane on her own with her complete lack of waveclear, builds for dps instead of burst so she can't really assassinate unless she is ridiculously farther ahead than she should be, and even in the late game she can't actually attack from a safe vantage point due to her mediocre attack range and complete lack of abilities that deal damage outside of it.
youre missing that except for those 12% true damage, she also deals regular adc level physical damage, and her ult has a large ad steroid attached.
it doesnt take her much to destroy you between her crits and her true damage.
Quepha1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j9HVvYVU,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2016-05-08T08:16:10.707+0000)
youre missing that except for those 12% true damage, she also deals regular adc level physical damage, and her ult has a large ad steroid attached.
it doesnt take her much to destroy you between her crits and her true damage.
You're talking about damage that can be reduced with armor, damage that doesn't scale with your hp pool. If Vayne still depends on this damage then the point is completely lost because you can still itemize against part of Vayne's damage that she depends on in order to kill you.
the Anarchit3cht1 votesand the fact that shes gonna proc it like 3 more times over the next .5 seconds if you manage to survive.
Quepha5 votes[{quoted}](name=the Anarchit3cht,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j9HVvYVU,comment-id=00000001000000000001,timestamp=2016-05-08T08:19:57.923+0000)
and the fact that shes gonna proc it like 3 more times over the next .5 seconds if you manage to survive.
You can't get an attack speed that high. The maximum is 2.5 unless you're Kog'maw, and Vayne is not Kog'maw.
the Anarchit3cht1 votesSomeone call the hyperbole police
Dar Raksada1 votesYou can't get an attack speed that high. The maximum is 2.5 unless you're Kog'maw, and Vayne is not Kog'maw.
I've seen more Rageblade vaynes which would allow her to proc it 3 times in 5 seconds if I'm not mistaken, just assume the . is a typo.
Narasimha4 votesIt also requires Vayne to build Rageblade. That's practically a free win for the enemy.
Dar Raksada4 votesThe function of %health true damage is making sure the champion that has it can attempt to duel anyone, tanks and squishies alike. Other forms of damage do more against squishies than tanks (even %hp phys/magical due to armor/mr). The idea with %health true damage is then that you can counterplay rather than counterbuild it (though sometimes you can do neither or both).
Not saying the implementation is perfect, but this is what Riot said when they added it to Fiora.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Dar Raksada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j9HVvYVU,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-05-08T12:02:08.202+0000)
The function of %health true damage is making sure the champion that has it can attempt to duel anyone, tanks and squishies alike. Other forms of damage do more against squishies than tanks (even %hp phys/magical due to armor/mr). The idea with %health true damage is then that you can counterplay rather than counterbuild it (though sometimes you can do neither or both).
Not saying the implementation is perfect, but this is what Riot said when they added it to Fiora.
why should a marksman be allowed to duel anyone though. the entire idea behind the class is that they need protection of their team to dish out tons of damage.
if youre designing a marksman be able to duel anyone they want, they dont need protection. this would be fine if their damage suffered from it and they couldnt hypercarry as hard as other marksmen.
but thats not the case for vayne. shes a lategame hypercarry who needs minimal amounts of protection. she doesnt have the drawbacks kogmaw or twitch have.
DeathBurst2 votesYou should check Vayne range again. That's definitely a massive drawback, especially if you want to compare her to kogmaw. She has more mobility in exchange of her range, and she has True damage instead of 5 attack/s. It's a different flavor of hyper-carry, but it's not one being better than the other on every point.
Also, I don't think Vayne is able to duel most assassins, despite her True Damage. But yes, she's able to duel most Tanks, better than other ADCs. That's not an issue, every champ has to be different from his class's archetype, that's what make them unique.
Finally, even if Vayne was able to duel anyone (again, probly not true, but "if"), this game is not a 1v1. In a team-fight, Vayne is forced to get closer than Jinx/Tris/Kog/Cait, and 2 or 3 people can jump on her at the same time.
I also main Garen, and I really don't like being against a Vayne, because she's one of the few champs that can still kill me in late-game, but Vayne countering my champ doesn't mean she's OP.
Critmaster Garen1 votesYou should check Vayne range again. That's definitely a massive drawback, especially if you want to compare her to kogmaw. She has more mobility in exchange of her range, and she has True damage instead of 5 attack/s. It's a different flavor of hyper-carry, but it's not one being better than the other on every point.
Also, I don't think Vayne is able to duel most assassins, despite her True Damage. But yes, she's able to duel most Tanks, better than other ADCs. That's not an issue, every champ has to be different from his class's archetype, that's what make them unique.
Finally, even if Vayne was able to duel anyone (again, probly not true, but "if"), this game is not a 1v1. In a team-fight, Vayne is forced to get closer than Jinx/Tris/Kog/Cait, and 2 or 3 people can jump on her at the same time.
I also main Garen, and I really don't like being against a Vayne, because she's one of the few champs that can still kill me in late-game, but Vayne countering my champ doesn't mean she's OP.
im not arguing if shes op or not, but that the champion has little counterplay to her damage which is incredibly frustrating to deal with. and this isnt just your average low counterplay. since that passive is on a marksman, it makes it infinitely harder to deal with when she indeed does get protection from her team.
on top of that she has a bunch of outplay potential in her kit, which often means winning against vayne is more about how she messes up trying to make a play on you, than how you can outplay her.
her auto range honestly means very little. i mean most adc are not working off their abilities by lategame, but theyre dealing damage with auto attacks. and almost all adc have the same range as vayne. and her threat range is larger than her auto attack range with the movement speed boost and her q being on such a short cooldown.
maybe they should reduce vaynes auto attack range and e range to 500, so the claim that vayne has a low auto attack range is finally true.
DeathBurst1 votesIt's very very easy to bully a Vayne out of lane in early game. She should not be in a position to make a play against you in the first place. And she CAN mess up if she does try, which is still better than Caitlyn or Jinx just poking you from afar.
Critmaster Garen1 votesIt's very very easy to bully a Vayne out of lane in early game. She should not be in a position to make a play against you in the first place. And she CAN mess up if she does try, which is still better than Caitlyn or Jinx just poking you from afar.
if you think you can bully her out of lane easily, then youve never played against a top lane vayne on a melee. you cant just ignore this, since it is happening.
and the game doesnt just consist of the lane phase. what if she doesnt completely lose during the lane phase, but only gets slightly behind like normal at higher ranks?
you have to completely destroy her or she scales into lategame with 2 items.
vayne has proven to be an issue multiple times. whenever the meta changes slightly in her favour her win and play rate climps through the roof. im its time the true damage on her w has to go.
DeathBurst1 votesI agree that Top Lane Vayne is another matter entirely. In that comment, I was referring specifically to Vayne bot, but I talked about Vayne Top in another comment. I agree that when she's Top, yes, you basically have to rely on your jungler being smart. I honestly don't know why her pick rate top is so low, because imho, it's a very solid pick. But it's still uncommon, not really a rampant issue.
About the game not being only laning phase: well if she's only slightly behind when you took Draven, it's your fault. If you took a champ that is not so much a lane bully, you also scale into late game. Not as hard as her, sure, but you took an advantage, and it's your job to find how to capitalize on it. It's not insta-win for Vayne's team as soon as she get to these 2 items, that's clearly an exaggeration.
Vayne is one of those champions that is annoying to deal with, because she forces you to play around her, you have to adapt. BUT... she's not insanely strong or unhealthy for the game, she has a clear profile with strengths AND weaknesses, and the True Damage can stay.
LankPants1 votesThe function of %health true damage is making sure the champion that has it can attempt to duel anyone, tanks and squishies alike
The problem I have with this is that a tank probably should always be harder to kill than a squishy. They itemise durability and often give up abilities for armour and MR steroids which Vayne and Fiora proceed to completely ignore. It just feels super bad to be a defensive stacking tank and have one of these champs kill you in seconds as if you were a squishy, pretty much mitigating your intended strength.
Weiner the Pooh2 votesOh yes, Tanks need more ways more ways to be unkillable. There needs to be some characters keeping all these rampant tanks under control.
RIP Resonance2 votesI agree with you that tanks are annoying, but there needs to be counterplay in each champion's kit. 
are items you can build that work well against tanks. I don't think that a champion should be able to walk up to any champion in the game and delete them regardless of their itemization.
LankPants1 votesTanks are building defence and actually tanking? Game must be completely broken.
Champions should get at least some value for the stats they build, Vayne and Fiora deny tanks their stats completely, which is pretty terrible from a design standpoint.
DeathBurst1 votesNot "completely". Most of their damage is still physical, so buying armor is still useful, and even against %HP, buying HP still lets you survive longer (unless 100% of the damage is percentage-based, which is never the case).
LankPants1 votesThey deny tanks their stats to an absurd level, in Fiora's case it is close to completely since her damage VS champions is an incredibly high percentage true damage, especially with tankier builds.
Buying armour and HP against these champs doesn't buy you much time. Having a Rand's and FH against Vayne helps but certainly doesn't solve.
Also with the new Rageblade, which is a fairly good item on Vayne, especially if rushed her damage is closer to pure true damage than ever before.
FantasySniper2 votesI don't think the presence of one champion should be considered "the cure for tanks", bruh.
Weiner the Pooh1 votesIts 2, and it helps, no its not the "cure" for tanks but having options to actually deal with the brain dead tanks makes it a bit better.
DeathBurst2 votes%HP True is basically the way the designers of a champ say "IF you manage to do that, you should win no matter what". The damage is overbearing because it is supposed to be overbearing, the balancing is not done on the amount of damage, but on the difficulty to apply it.
CeexSett1 votesWouldn't say Fiora is super squishy, that is how she is supposed to be played. Don't forget her W, her ult and passive heals and her itemization.
DeathBurst1 votesAbout the itemization, she will be nerfed/tweaked until she's built full-AD again, I trust Riot about that. Maybe it will take a few patches to find the right spot, but they'll do it.
About the rest, you don't say an ADC is not squishy when they have a lot of Lifesteal, it's basically the same: in-combat sustained heal. Same for the W : it is a .75 s windowed defense, you don't say Fizz is tanky because of his troll pole, or that Zed is tanky because he's untargettable when he ults.
Blåbæret1 votesI was a fuill build Leona and Vayne was still 3-shotting me. Seems balanced. Imo Vayne needs change.
EndlessSorcerer1 votesIf she three-shot you, then three basic attacks from Vayne dealt 88% of your health (since her true damage would only deal 12%.
Were you, by chance, building AP or AD Leona? If you had any amount of armor and health, that would not be possible.
DesolationKaizer1 votesRofl, 3-shotting. These gross exaggerations are always humorous.
Athenes Lulu1 votesThe only decent solution to that is , which would still get you 3-shotted anyways.
RIP Resonance1 votesI mainly made this thread out of anger. I was in a game as Alistar, and I'd be able to CC her, but she'd be able to sustain and my team couldn't burst her in time, so it was slaughter. Not to mention, it was like my ultimate was nonexistant, because silver bolt proc isn't fair and offers no counterplay.
Nyhver1 votes% hp true damage is fine on vayne tbh
Teridax681 votes[{quoted}](name=RIP Resonance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=j9HVvYVU,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-05-08T07:15:25.179+0000)
You cannot stack health or itemize against it.
That's the point. Max health true damage is specifically designed so that counter-itemization through defensive stats doesn't affect it. There are a lot of reasons to have this on the kits you mentioned, but the gameplay reason is that it's damage you're meant to play against, rather than build against. Vayne applying Silver Bolts' damage to you means you let her attack you three times, and while that can often happen quickly or outside of some champions' control, her fighting pattern exposes her to immediate retaliation, meaning she can die a lot more quickly than you even while attacking you.
