Can We Give Turrets Some Love?

Bob the Toastr·Jul 13, 2017·180 votes·4,806 views

Turrets are about as useful and damaging as wet paper, but I probably shouldn't say that because that's an insult to wet paper.

Seriously, people can dive pretty easily with all sorts of dashes and ward hops and rappels. Not to mention I can easily take 2 towers in a row if I get Rift Herald as or .

Their targeting has been pretty bad too for a while now. Easy to hit someone under turret and get back out without taking a turret shot.

Can we get something like the regenerating shield on the tier 2 turrets or the laser inhib and nexus turrets back? Those were so much better and I felt like they actually did something.

Guess that wouldn't work too well with Riot's flashy plays, quick games meta but it would feel a lot better.

Edit: I'm surprised this got so much attention, glad some people agree with my opinion.

145 Comments

Pippen The ShortJul 13, 201725 votes

Totes agree.

I will say this, I think Outer turrets are in a healthy spot, but as you get closer to inhibs I feel like the towers get weaker. If they just buffed Nexus, Inhib, and Inner turrets to be equal, with a slightly higher attack speed and slightly higher attack damage I think that would be a healthy place to be.

xelakerJul 13, 20178 votes

the issue is the champions and minions outscale the turrets by a mile, unless you take the first turret in like 3 minutes, but that's some afk stuff soooo.

KGDisastaJul 14, 201710 votes

Just tested out a rammus vs. turrets training, where i used ( item 3143 item 3742 item 3109 item 3083 item 3075 item 3193 item 3110 ) It took 84 turret shots to kill me. when my W was up the nexus turrets were only hitting me for 45 damage. Now I just need to show how broken A.Pen. is comparatively. same build I would probably die in less than 3s to an ADC.

Bob the ToastrJul 14, 20174 votes

Thanks for testing that out, that's pretty crazy! Just imagine if you had someone with a shield or heal on your team lol

ChuShoeJul 14, 201710 votes

Does anyone else remember that clip from the NA LCS when that Nautilus tanked 30-40 nexus tower shots for his team?

EDIT Found it, actually it was 31 Turret shots but he would've been able to tank much more if the turrets didn't go down so fast https://youtu.be/MbRiYV5SBAI

Synnx7Jul 14, 20172 votes

Yeah. Hence i'd watch a fucking 2 year old tv show with some pictures floating around , than watching this cancer. Farm 20minutes , and in late game both teams walk around the map acomplishing nothing untill some dumbass gets caught. Much pro, much gameplay , much skill. BEst moba 12/10

leona4lyfeJul 14, 20172 votes

LOL yea exactly

Pierce The VealJul 14, 20177 votes

Could we perhaps make it so that we can repair turrets that haven't fallen?

I don't know, make a new creep that spawns and "fixes" damaged turrets, giving the opposing team another thing to look out for. No more leaving that turret at 200 health to easily finish it off whenever. You leave their defenses alone, they will repair their defenses. Bam.

Additionally, perhaps we could make taking turrets TOO fast problematic too? Make them explode, dealing true damage, if they blow up too fast.

Bob the ToastrJul 14, 20172 votes

That is an interesting idea, with the taking turrets too fast thing.

And I think the 'fixing' turrets could be a thing too, maybe they could adjust Ohmwrecker so it can either disable an enemy turret or restore health to an allied turret. Or maybe just make the allied turret invulnerable for 2.5 seconds. Just some ideas.

TwitchInMyPantsJul 14, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ijyargjm,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2017-07-14T04:16:41.445+0000)

That is an interesting idea, with the taking turrets too fast thing.

And I think the 'fixing' turrets could be a thing too, maybe they could adjust Ohmwrecker so it can either disable an enemy turret or restore health to an allied turret. Or maybe just make the allied turret invulnerable for 2.5 seconds. Just some ideas.

Do you remember fortify? Get rid of the crazy defense steroid on it other than a fair amount of armor and attach that and the attack steroid to a tower you select with Ohmwrecker if its an allied tower.

Honestly any defensive use for Ohmwrecker is what that item needs, its only usable when ahead and if you're ahead damage >>>>>> ohmwrecker. If it at least had defensive utility for protecting towers it'd be unique.

mkynerJul 14, 20171 votes

Treat turret health kind of like Champion health. Champions like Soraka would heal damaged towers, shielding abilities could be used on towers (I think only Janna 's can right now), summoner 7 would restore health, etc. Maybe make the tower's health regeneration rate that of a friendly Champion standing within range: the faster your health regen is, the faster you heal the turrets. That would also make turret health something you have to actively monitor and maintain, since a Champion would need to be on hand to restore its health. (Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.)

Pierce The VealJul 16, 20172 votes

Sion 6 hp regen beads into warmogs spirit visage master race?

LùmenJul 15, 20172 votes

Absolutely PURE genius. I completely agree with you

RainbowIceeJul 13, 20176 votes

They want games to end faster so they won't. When they decide they want games to last a little longer then they'll start giving them some love. Reason why rift exist is to take towers faster so people would fight to contest it.

Bob the ToastrJul 13, 20179 votes

Unfortunately, this seems to be true, which is disappointing because I always enjoy my late game/infinitely scaling champs.

item 3070 Nasus Veigar KogMaw Thresh Sion

SpoofghoulJul 13, 201712 votes

but sion isn't really a lategame champ

you need to farm like 800 hp to equal an average tanks innate tankyness

that extra 100 or 200 health you could farm beyond that in a longer game really won't do much

he is stronger in the early to midgame where he outdamages most other tanks

Acheron16Jul 13, 20175 votes

{quoted}

but sion isn't really a lategame champ

you need to farm like 800 hp to equal an average tanks innate tankyness

that extra 100 or 200 health you could farm beyond that in a longer game really won't do much

he is stronger in the early to midgame where he outdamages most other tanks

That's because Riot doesn't know how to give champs true strengths. They make Sion able to famr HP, but give him abysmal HP and HP growth.

I dont expect them to have great stats when they can infinitely increase those stats, but there's no reason to make them the worst outof their class.

EDIT: edited because you fucking morons failed to grasp the point.

It Hertz When IPJul 13, 201743 votes

{quoted}

They make Veigar able to stack AP, yet give him terrible AP ratios.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/173/576/Wat8.jpg

5000000000000000Jul 14, 20173 votes

Really the only gripe I have when playing Veigar is how hard it is to land W without the stun. But I mean, if it was easier to land it'd be problematic.

It Hertz When IPJul 14, 20175 votes

I use it more for zoning during the laning phase, force them to choose between missing that cannon minion CS or eating a large chunk of damage and giving me a free passive stack.

Violet FieldsJul 14, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ijyargjm,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-07-13T20:11:03.225+0000)

Unfortunately, this seems to be true, which is disappointing because I always enjoy my late game/infinitely scaling champs.

Wait, who's KogMaw ? Don't you mean Kindred ? I also play Bard mid by the way... :P You should try it, it's pretty fun.

DanjengJul 13, 201713 votes

I actually like long games. They're usually very intense and exciting when any side can win or lose. Everybody on each team impactful for the big fights. Everybody makes a difference. There's just so much going on.

20 minute games usually are a stomp and end up with a fair amount of blaming and arguing. There's no contest and minimal communication. I miss the t2 shields and laser turrets. It's now mainly just fed champions running around killing some poor silly chap, who thinks "this time I can beat them!", again and again.

3TWarriorJul 14, 20174 votes

too many people migrated from first person shooters the "call of duty kids" they were called

I miss the long games as well, though I also didn't like it when if a tank team managed to keep lane for just long enough, they could bulldoze over towers just by outlasting your team

of course, the only time that started happening was when riot effectively started removing the ability for one person to carry

Zeke MaelstormJul 14, 20171 votes

I miss when one person could carry.

3TWarriorJul 14, 20172 votes

we all do XD

assassins though during that time should have been tuned down to the "normal" carry level

it was outright crazy for one to come in and just delete someone every ten seconds or so

MohawkBirdJul 13, 20172 votes

{quoted}

They want games to end faster so they won't. When they decide they want games to last a little longer then they'll start giving them some love. Reason why rift exist is to take towers faster so people would fight to contest it.

When games are ending easily around 25 minutes and people aren't getting past 3 items it should show that the whole tower nerf thing a while back was dumb, specifically the inhib tower nerf.

DanjengJul 14, 20173 votes

IMO optimal game length should be 40-50 minutes, with short games lasting 30, and long lasting an hour.

General Esdeath Jul 13, 20172 votes

Original rift was added because top was an island and became a farm lane in LCS. They made towers weaker in bot, added first turret gold, and changed rift herald to make teams choose harder, while making solo play worse.

3TWarriorJul 14, 20171 votes

and yet the more "interesting" they try to make professional gameplay...the more cautious and patient they become

I remember someone commenting that first blood didn't happen until 20 minutes into one game

General Esdeath Jul 14, 20171 votes

Pretty much. Making towers weaker won't make people watch LCS. Making rift a tower killer won't make people watch LCS. Literally nobody who plays ranked in a competitive manner cares about LCS, it's a different game. It's like expecting CoD players to watch Chess.

3TWarriorJul 14, 20171 votes

I'd say more like expecting CoD players to have the patience for Final Fantasy games

and I certainly know it's boring when a videogame "sports" highlight just shows the opposing team giving up because a tank made it to the nexus and started beating on it...

General Esdeath Jul 14, 20172 votes

Highlights haven't even been that interesting except a fail flash or game bug.

NefariousQuackJul 14, 20177 votes

{quoted}

They want games to end faster so they won't. When they decide they want games to last a little longer then they'll start giving them some love. Reason why rift exist is to take towers faster so people would fight to contest it.

short games are so fucking boring.

Synnx7Jul 13, 20176 votes

They can't. They're more like nerfing them even further maybe " turrets are just bags of gold now" The sole reason i quitted this game is because turrets are fucking garbage and annoying to the point of getting liver disease. Not to mention the champ balance Turrets do JACK SHIT , might as well remove them and add fences that disappears after 5-10minutes Ironically, as incompetent riot are or w/e the hell they try to do, ARAM turrets are X10 times better than SR ones. At least from dmg PoV

Bob the ToastrJul 13, 20177 votes

You're not wrong.

3TWarriorJul 14, 20172 votes

turns on LCS goes to get a soda from the fridge comes back "why is the game over?"

Violet FieldsJul 14, 20175 votes

On the topic, we need those beeming turrets back. The ones that don't have a fixed attack speed. I see a Jinx, Xayah, Tristana, and even Jhin tower dive turrets because they have a stupid passive that increases their movement speed rapidly (or even their abilities) when they get a kill which allows them to escape turret shots.

Bob the ToastrJul 14, 20174 votes

The slow that they had was especially good at deterring dives.

Tobias BracknerJul 14, 20171 votes

Do the math on towers. You will see they do a fuckton of damage.

Doctor JarvisJul 14, 201711 votes

No, they really don't, unless you stand under them for 10 seconds like an idiot. I've done the math.

Let's give you the strongest singular turret, the inhibitor turret. It maxes out at 290 AD. Lets say a barely tanky champion with 100 armor approaches it. Good news! Turrets penetrate 30% of their target's armor. More good news! Turret damage against champions ramp up 40% each shot, up to 120%! Now he has 70 armor and is going to take way more damage than he initially believed.

Now the bad news. First shot deals 119 damage. That's certainly not negligible, you say to yourself. If the target only bothered with 100 armor, that's probably close to a tenth of his health. Next shot? 167, total now 286. Now we're getting somewhere. Next shot? 214, total 400. This is...getting underwhelming, actually. Next shot, and then every shot thereafter? 262, total 662, 924, 1186...you get the idea.

So a 100 armor INSERT CARRY OF CHOICE HERE can literally walk up to your tower and just fucking stand there (turrets have an attack speed of .83, so the damage ramp will take awhile), and that's assuming the CARRY is the one tanking the damage, which of course he isn't (so you're going to take even longer to see appreciable results from that turret), but it establishes my point that a relatively "squishy" champ doesn't need to fear turrets.

Tobias BracknerJul 14, 20171 votes

Is your point that the people who are supposed to dive turrets are able to do so? Because that seems like the game is working as intended.

LeBlanc RoseJul 14, 20176 votes

No, because CARRIES who's sole purpose is to BUILD DAMAGE can tank 5+ shots, more if they build armor. Tanks can withstand tons of hits, such as over 30. There is no class 'built' to dive turrets. Yes, there is divers, but they dive the backline, not towers.

3TWarriorJul 14, 20171 votes

actually, it means that it takes approximately 10 shots to even kill a marksman if that marksman is at level 18

though I think his math is off somewhere as the initial values I get are much higher against the 100 armor target starting at 170 damage and then applying the damage multiplyer and repeat

Tobias BracknerJul 14, 20171 votes

Uh, 10 shots is not a lot of shots. And if you want to talk about the world of lvl 18 fights, then a Marksman losing 1/10 of their health is a very dangerous thing.

3TWarriorJul 14, 20171 votes

okay, but it also means that if that marksman has the complete advantage, the turret does not dissuade them from advancing

Tobias BracknerJul 15, 20171 votes

You gotta have a big advantage for losing 1/10 of your health every couple of seconds to not be a big problem. If a marksman was able to build that kind of advantage then they deserve to kill whoever is under the tower before the tower kills them.

3TWarriorJul 15, 20171 votes

well, early to mid game that big advantage can simply be a jungler blowing their whole kit to weaken the opponent

as a note, it was only said as much to show that the least health class in the game can even dive a turret without fear if there is only so much as one factor turning a situation to their advantage

with an attack sped of 0.81 it would take 1.25 seconds roughly for the turret to fire or 12.5 for the full 10. Most dives last about half that time and even in the optimal situation where the opposing carry starts taking turret shots happens, the carry would have to be very weak to fall

this is using the original commenter's numbers however. I would have to recalculate using my numbers, but in the original case, the numbers stand that turrets were not a suitable defense

Tobias BracknerJul 15, 20172 votes

early to mid game

The example is talking about late game inhibitor towers homie. If you want to talk about something else then provide the math for that.

And no, the example proves that a lvl 18 Marksman w/ 100 Armor can tank 10 tower shots. 2 are plenty for the person under tower to turn around and pop the Marksman (unless we are talking about a major gap in skill/power of the characters). So even in the "dives take 5 seconds" that squishy is playing with fire by tanking turret shots. That's why even late game you will see tanks be the ones to take turret aggro. It's also why teams that don't have such strong tanks can struggle with even a 5 man push to a tower.

Turrets are a perfectly suitable defense given that the stars of the game are the characters/players and not the towers.

leona4lyfeJul 14, 20171 votes

Game's are long enough as it is. With strengthened turrets, it would add another (t1 = t2(x + (c*y)) 7 minutes to the game depending on the stat increase x, y and c. Adding 50 more damage to the turret will increase a game's average by 7 minutes easily.

ChuShoeJul 14, 20174 votes

Frankly, when you join a game, you agree to play for a specific amount of time. I wouldn't see the harm in making nexus/inhib turrets stronger, because most often I find it really irritating when I either can't get full build before the game ends, or because the enemy team is fed, I have no chance to farm and get even because the turrets go down too quickly.

I feel like I'd agree with you if I wasn't in a lower skill level where people constantly feed doing risky stuff, but people just take such strong early champions that my team gets stomped early and the game ends around 20-30 minutes.

On the other hand, the games that I live for are the ones that take 50 minutes to an hour, but I see how tedious it might become if turrets were made stronger in those few and far between situations.