Riot, I have a serious question about off meta and banning

P0IS0N IVY··4 votes·1,796 views

Let me quote some things Wookie said first:

> {quoted}

  • Q: Can I get banned for choosing a champion or strategy that is outside the current meta?
  • A: 100% no. Choosing a champion or strategy outside of the current meta is not a factor we take into account when reviewing accounts. On any given day tens of thousands of players are making unusual picks in the game and they’ll never receive penalties in any form.
  • “...common sense and good sportsmanship say that experimenting players need to clearly communicate intent and win conditions to their teammates.”
  • All of us need to be aware of the difference of communicating “with” someone vs. communicating “at” someone. Telling your team what you’re going to do and then ignoring them isn’t really working with them it’s holding them hostage. Telling your team what you want to do and actually working towards a common plan is a central part to playing any team based game.
  • The message was pretty clear to us, this player is serious about_ Making Nunu Great Again_ but they are leaving a trail of dissatisfaction, frustration, and anger in their wake.
  • If a player is consistently forcing “their vision” on the rest of the team **and **refusing to adapt to their needs we reserve the right to intervene.

If off meta is allowed, and a player clearly communicated what they would be playing and doing in champ select, who gets to decide whether that player can go through with their pick?

How to compromise? There's no middle ground here. You either pick an off meta champion or a meta champion. A lot of Wookie's comments implied that the player should adapt to their team, which means that their pick needs to be a meta pick. If this becomes a majority rules situation, then why is off meta allowed at all?

I'd like a more thorough explanation on how to avoid player negativity/getting banned while still playing an off meta champ. How about when I'm playing an off meta role?

Edit: Why is a question being downvoted?

13 Comments

LostFr0st3 votes

We're going to be getting a completely clear answer very soon, after they have some time to talk thoroughly about it internally.

Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/5wtk72/in_regards_to_the_support_nunu_riots_3rd_rule_on/dedr1vp/

P0IS0N IVY1 votes

Thanks for that link! I don't visit reddit often.

Hethalean2 votes

Riot won't ban you for picking off meta or for tactical differences (see singed / nunu support cases), but they will ban you if it causes negativity... which it absolutely will all the time. So realistically, they ban you for being too off meta, or tactical differences that are too outside the meta. Honestly, they just need to say "We think roaming is a thing, but you have to live in bot lane as a support. Tis your life, too bad if your adc is not going to be useful all game because they are the weakest link... Ignore that voice that says the best way to support your team is to help another person get fed. Stand by dat ADC... Till death do you part"

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

Its not Riot's approach toward's roaming as a support that's the issue here. Its how, and/or if, a person should be punished for playing a certain way. If people react negatively, over a large sample of games, to a certain play-style, you would assume, realistically, that the play-style in question is either, A: Unhealthy for opponents, B: Unhealthy for the allied team, or C: Interfering with game mechanics in an overly negative way. However, a lot of off-meta strats can be put into these groups. Things like AP Janna mid, or Tank Yasuo. The hard part, is determining which is bad, and what is just different.

P0IS0N IVY1 votes

I don't think anything off meta is bad unless the person is actively trolling and trying to lose. I like it when people try out new things to see if it works. I greatly dislike it, however, when people jump onto a new bandwagon because a pro did it (but that has nothing to do with this thread).

Riot seems to like the idea that players should get to play how they want, but they have not done a good job of backing that claim up. People by nature do not like change, so statistically, there will be more negative reactions that positive/neutral ones. This will always be the case regarding off meta strategies.

Hethalean1 votes

Please bear with me as I failed in my brevity check on this one causing my response to be kind of long.

The thing is that Nunu and Singed were roaming so much that people attributed it to abandoning the bot lane. In the few games I watched, it was not like Singed nor Nunu were never present in bot lane for any amount of time. If leaving lane to help ward jungle, help counter jungle, help game is described as "roaming" (which the two cases did in such abundance to fall into the negative/unhealthy/unfun/"I didn't sign up for this category"), then that is precisely what is at issue, and I'm curious where that dividing line is.

However, that being said there are plenty of champions that I simply just find negative to play beside as a teammate. Teemo is one of them. I find the experience pretty much wholely negative, but I've never reported it because it's just a off meta pick (Teemo is definitely NOT meta imo), and it's a tactical difference in playstyle (split push top all day similar to Nasus) and provide 0 teamfight presence. I personally subscribe that team fighting is almost king in LoL and if your champion provides very little then that is a playstyle for which I did not sign up.

I don't necessarily agree that your options A/B/C are the entire sum of options that can be listed. I also curious as to what would be defined as 'unhealthy'. There are a multitude of interpretations to be had with unhealthy. I'm silver, and I see so many people hate and get super irate over the split pushing strategy. I do not get upset. I just do not prefer it in my games personally; Since I am Silver, the chances are that your ineffective use of teleporting and split pushing will be solely detrimental to the team as a whole.

I see these cases as merely people not being used to the strategy and not being able to adapt (probably on both sides). This is what is expected of the Nunu and Singed because the other 4 players will not adapt to their playstyle. Therefore the odd-man-out are expected to adapt in this scenario only to the team, not visa versa.

When I was originally getting on board as Brand Support (support main here), I got a lot of blowback from teammates about the AP support. This is most likely because they do not know how to play with it and do not like it when the low income would potentially get kills due to high base damages and extreme gold : damage ratio efficiency. Luckily for me, since it showed up in pro play, the META itself shifted to that APC Supports were more accepted (and their contributions more understood and how to play with it) and thus I was never presented with the ultimatum from Riot of conform to my teammates playstyles (as it is very different to normal supporting. "The best CC is death") because my choice in what and how I wanted to play was not welcome.

In the end, both Nunu's and Singed's playstyles got the players to Diamond with over 50% win rate which definitely says something about the strat as a whole being effective team support playstyle. It was able to get enough advantages over the other team to make up for an ADC who was frustrated because he / she was 1v2 and has no real developed experience to deal with such a case. It also says that Riot does not allow negative experiences from tactical decision differences to be acceptable. However, following the boards (where people go to whine admittedly), they make a lot of champions that just make you super frustrated and super unhappy to even play against. Riot makes a ton of champions that are oppressive and remain viable so a lot of players are negatively impacted just by their presence in games. This smacks slightly of contradiction to me personally especially when their FAQ on Reporting says (number 3 and 5 for reference) to not ban for off meta selection, nor to ban for tactical decision differences (which I would classify roaming too much under that as it is a tactical choice to do so).

As I list these please know that I am not mentioning these to discuss counter play availability for these honorable mentions, Caitlyn is one such champion for a lot of people. The reason why Blitzcrank will never be strong is because of how completely oppressive his success scenarios are (and I find him to be completely negative to play against especially in lane).

To sum it up, I think that Riot would do well to either rename the role to Bot Support / Bot Carry to help indicate to player that innovation like Singed/Nunu is to be treated with tempered exuberance on the player's part. I was watching Phreak's stream the other day and this situation came up. Phreak mentioned that it is a 'gentlemen's agreement' on how LOL is played that Support is played in bot lane (which again reinforces that it is a META SCENARIO for which you're not supposed to report). Personally, I think a punishment instead of some sort of warning in this case is extreme. Clearly the people knew that their playstyle was making people unhappy, but were misinformed that it was indeed punishable. Riot could have given them warnings instead of actual punishments as they were indeed just trying to play and play to win!

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

"In the end, both Nunu's and Singed's playstyles got the players to Diamond with over 50% win rate which definitely says something about the strat as a whole being effective team support play-style. It was able to get enough advantages over the other team to make up for an ADC who was frustrated because he / she was 1v2 and has no real developed experience to deal with such a case."

While your probably right that my A/B/C thing doesn't cover all cases, it is a pretty broad spectrum. that does apply to a quite a few cases. For example, the above quote demonstrates how the Nunu/Singed support was B, an unhealthy experience for an ally. I would also hazard to say that it was A, an unhealthy experience for the enemy team, as counter-jungling is one of the most irritating things you can do to a player, similar to invades.

As to the definition of unhealthy, it means, to me at least, that the strategy is creating an overly - unfun/unfair experience. While I realize that the definition is pretty subjective, its the best one I have. In the case of split-pushing, I agree that is a somewhat controversial strat, but it is less so decided by the champion. What I mean by that, is there are people who are better/worse at splitting, but its not that you have to split-push. Its a decision you can make in specific scenarios. Conversely, is you pick support Nunu/Singed, and take smite, there is a certain play-style you have to adhere to, otherwise, your just useless.

In regards to punishment/warning, I agree that the system could use a bit of space. However, just because a strat is effective, doesn't mean you should do it/shouldn't be punished for it. For example, Tank Ekko. That was unhealthy, plain and simple. Despite this, it was argued that it was a legitimate way of playing Ekko, as it was merely an off-meta way of building him. While people were banned for it, it was deemed too unhealthy to be in the game. If things like Nunu or Singed support, specifically the way they were used as supports, become too unhealthy for the game, their use should be prohibited. What's hard, is determining where to draw the line, and I'm hoping that's something Riot will clarify for the community.

Hethalean1 votes

I agree that Riot should clarify for the community.

I'm not sure how much I agree to my ADC having a negative experience being unhealthy. In some ways yes, it can be unhealthy, but I don't have a firm definition myself for what is 'unhealthy', but also, just because something could be viewed as unhealthy (Yasuo Teemo Blitzcrank Shaco for example) doesn't necessarily mean you should get punished for it.

I'm not sure you're main role, but I main support (silver elo). What I find (maybe specific to my elo), if ANYTHING goes wrong for my adc, he's got an extremely negative experience right there from which I rarely see them come back even if we are winning. I definitely have a skewed point of view, and exactly how much weight I put 'negative experience' on any ADC because of this. I am probably NOT biased.

I could accidentally take a CS, or not save him from his own choices. I've seen a high instance of ADCs in these cases devolve to flaming and other negativity inspired behavior (moody, grumpy, ff@20 Thresh missed relic shield [and yes I've seen this where an ADC says they're screwed and will be ineffective this game because I missed a cannon]). However, I'm not sure how that automatically should make it reportable and punishable. It is a high percentage of the games where I do some small mistake that the ADC flames me for it, or just in general gets grumpy and whiney.

If I were to have enough reports like Singed or Nunu, I doubt my negativity creating bad play will get punished because they say they won't punish for bad play, just like they say they won't punish for off meta, and tactical decision differences. In especially the tank Ekko case, I don't think anyone was punished for it. Riot didn't like the build/strategy of it, so they nerfed it's effectiveness. I feel like similar could be done here.

1wolfpack1 votes

it might be different here in lower elo's but most of the time my team doesnt say anything when i go off meta, or if they do I can convince them to have faith in my abilities playing off meta. in the odd occasion I cannot I will play a meta champion.

SwiftKitten881 votes

there are 5 roles, as long as u play the role you are given to the best of your ability.. you are fine.

if you are a support get a item 2049 and a gold income item. you lane with your adc until laning phase is over.. what you want to do AFTER that point is up to you. but you still need to PLAY the role you are given.

ziggs bot is a thing at least for a time. it is an off meta pick? yes... but he PLAYED corrected. bot lane with the support. and it worked becuase the abudeance of power in AD picks in other lanes.

taking summoner 11 CLEARLY show you do NOT intend to SUPPORT. you are given support any unless PLAY AS A SUPPORT, then u can get banned.

a few ago a the enemy team had a Teemo support and he got banned after we all reported him.. but we didnt report for "being "off meta" we report him for REFUSEING to support.. refusing to buy a item 2049 taking his adc's CS, INT FEEDING, refusing to communicate with team and flaming in all chat.. he was given support and he did not support.. he was toxic and he was banned.

if he bought a item 2049, didn't steal CS, used his blind to help his adc win trades got item 3092 for vision... and was a nice player but still ended up losing because I'm frankly a better support then no one would have reported him.. and if they did... he wouldn't have been banned if anything.. he was banned because he was a jerk, he didn't support refused to work with this team, int fed. and flamed..

P0IS0N IVY1 votes

There are five roles but Riot also said they allowed off meta, which is picking outside both those roles and the expected champ pool. Ziggs is an off meta pick, but not an off meta strategy, which is why he gets less flack for it versus the Nunu player that had both an off meta pick and strategy. The Nunu is unable to pick a role that actually pertains to what he does because it is not available.

SwiftKitten881 votes

[{quoted}](name=P0IS0N IVY,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ifvAsOJN,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-03-02T01:58:02.133+0000)

There are five roles but Riot also said they allowed off meta, which is picking outside both those roles and the expected champ pool. Ziggs is an off meta pick, but not an off meta strategy, which is why he gets less flack for it versus the Nunu player that had both an off meta pick and strategy. The Nunu is unable to pick a role that actually pertains to what he does because it is not available.

Nunu can jungle... he can mid..

and he can support..

trust me.. those ice balls FREAKING HURT and being able to consume minions basically make him unkillable in lane.

you can play jungle.. you can play him support you can play him mid..

but if you wannt to play him jungle. QUE AS JUNGLE. and if u get support.. if u pick him fine.. BUT PLAY HIM AS SUPPORT , NOT AS JUNGLE! its not like u CAN'T effective support with him.. and u only really need to do it until around lvl 8 or 9 when laning phase end..

if this was 5 man flex que and the whole team was fine with the strategy.. then sure..

but don't expect a random adc, to be ok with a 1v2 lane just because you wanted jungle and were given support, and your too full of yourself to actually PLAY THE ROLE YOU ARE GIVEN

P0IS0N IVY1 votes

That's not the point. The role the Nunu was playing is not an available role from the five given.

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