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I feel Magus was better than Runeglaive. (MY OPINION)

Möral Support··32 votes·2,202 views

So, in today's meta, the top AP junglers are as follows. Nidalee, Elise, and Diana. The reason they excel is because they rely on spamming their abilities and then auto attacking afterwards.

Lets take a step back to season 4. Magus was still in the game. Anyone who wanted to jungle AP, could. This allowed Fiddle, Karthus, Nidalee, Diana, Elise (NERFED AT THE TIME), Akali, and Karma, to all be viable. When they removed magus for an AUTO ATTACK based damage amplifier, they altered four of these champions.

Karthus and Fiddle, for example, now have to auto attack to deal damage to a camp. (And for Fiddle it lowers his clear time 35%. Yes i did the math for real.) (Karthus has the slowest auto attack animation in the game. This DEVASTATED his jungling ability.)

Why I bring this up: I played a game about three days ago where I was playing jungle fiddlesticks. I noticed now that he has a hard time clearing the camps when he has to stop and auto attack. (This is when I went into a custom game to calculate how slow it took and then compared it to a youtube video's clear speed of magus.) I felt as if, in every aspect, the only VIABLE ability power junglers were being forced down my throat. I compared all the other junglers' clear times and noticed how Elise, Nidalee, and Diana ALL gained valuable buffs to their kits with ruinglaive added. (Elise may not be reliable in this aspect as she was NERFED when magus was removed.) I really felt like these champions were GIVEN their ability to succeed and Riot took the others away. I feel ruinglaive really take away from Ability Power jungling and its diversity.

What I feel should happen: Maybe alter the makings of Runeglaive to BETTER fit all AP champions when they jungle. Perhaps give them a DOT that scales with level. (FOR INSTANCE: Put 25dmg/second for 4 seconds at level 6. 65dmg/second at level 12. 100 dmg/second at level 18. All damage is magic damage.) ( I dont want this to be OP so please comment how it could be tweaked to balance.) The damage DoT would apply once magic damage has commenced and it only can apply ever 6 seconds. (WOULDNT APPLY TO MINIONS. AP Ezreal WILL NOT RETURN.)

Again this is simply my opinion I don't mean this in any rant form or anything.

EDIT: I meant it to say Fiddle's EARLY GAME Clears. MY BAD

ATTENTION I have created a survey for this, please check it out! http://strawpoll.me/5606310

30 Comments

Khell DarkWolf23 votes

Both Magus and Runeglaive should have co-existed in the game, just like Devourer and warrior's enchantment was allowed to co-exist because they catered to two different AD based junglers based on playstyle and trends.

There was no reason to remove Magus in the name of diversity.

Möral Support2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Khell DarkWolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ibcyFrAE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-09-28T06:56:40.538+0000)

Both Magus and Runeglaive should have co-existed in the game, just like Devourer and warrior's enchantment was allowed to co-exist because they catered to two different AD based junglers based on playstyle and trends.

There was no reason to remove Magus in the name of diversity.

Valid argument I never thought of them coexisting. Good idea!

Bouffon dAnglais2 votes

The same goes for Juggernaut/Cinderhulk. Keep one for pure tanks, and the other for tanks who want the extra damage. Maybe add to Juggernaut the Quill Coat (from last season) effect.

T RexHasTinyArms1 votes

Except that devourer and warrior should in theory cater to different stats; it's not AD and a different AD, it is AD vs AS scaling jungles. If a champ has a kit that doesn't really need AD as much as AS bc they get more from procking on hit (yi, shyv, xin, phoenix udyr, ww) then they want an AS item more than an AD item. Many of them can run the ad item or another jungle enchant, but they are best suited to an AS based item. It's a fundamentally different stat scaling between warrior and devourer.

However, still wouldn't be an issue to have 5 or even 6 or 7 different jungle enchant items. There are probably lots of cool things they could do with them.

Sukishoo1 votes

Uh.. no? Dev and Warrior are two totally different concepts and not both for AD Based junglers. Dev is an AS item that deals magic damage and Warrior is an Armor pen AD item.

Kayle isn't an AD Jungler, WW can be played as an AP (as well as AD), Teemo (niche) is AP, Ekko can do wonders with a Dev and many others do too. So no, Dev isn't catered to AD Junglers.

CatSith2 votes

its used mostly for AD junglers though lol. Not one WW ive seen going devourer, goes AP.

LadyRenly4 votes

magus was alright, anyone who used AP could use it. but Runeglaive, ehh... it's useless if your autos blow, why spend money to enhance something you never use

Möral Support2 votes

{quoted}

magus was alright, anyone who used AP could use it. but Runeglaive, ehh... it's useless if your autos blow, why spend money to enhance something you never use

Exactly!

Partholonian2 votes

{quoted}

magus was alright, anyone who used AP could use it. but Runeglaive, ehh... it's useless if your autos blow, why spend money to enhance something you never use

I think you're thinking about it wrong. Even if your normal autos are bad, your runeglaive autos are worth using. They're effectively a fifth spell that you can only "cast" after you cast one of your other spells and that GIVES you mana instead of costing it.

Viktor's normal AA is bad too, but after he uses Q it becomes worth using.

Stonington3 votes

Oh yeah, Fiddle probably doesn't like it. It definitely hurt him. Although, he had one of the highest winrates in all elos and still a 52%+ winrate in plat+. I also preferred magus on Malz jungle since I was just going to buy a tear and my strategy as to power farm and scale. Which is similar to what you want from Karthus. You're going a bit overboard by saying it devastated Karthus' clear though.

Glaive opens up a lot more options for AP junglers in the early mid game. With glaive you have mana regen and can damage camps heavier without spending mana. This allows junglers to stay on the map for longer and keep up in farm to their tank and bruiser counterparts. Overall, I'd say it slightly hurt a few junglers and heavily buffed a bunch of others in the way they really needed to become viable.

Any other junglers that don't like glaive?

idoki3 votes

Both should have existed together. Juggernaut should also have stayed, as not all tank/bruiser junglers benefit from item 3709 bonus %HP and rather have the tenacity Juggernaut gave (Skarner Shyvana [if sated devourer didn't exist] Amumu etc).

The whole 2 paths for each stat is explained very well in stonewall's video from a while ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWJnA8VkAsE

Teridax682 votes

I think neither Magus nor Runeglaive are the best fit for AP junglers. As you mentioned, Runeglaive only caters to a small fraction of AP junglers who were already advantaged when clearing (i.e. by blending autoattacks in with spells), to the detriment of mages, but at the same time Magus was just a boring enchantment that didn't offer anything unique to AP junglers and was often sold or ignored entirely in favor of Morellonomicon. I also think there's a deeper issue of early clears being so painful for mages, regardless of which enchantment they get, that it would prevent them from becoming as popular as, say, Diana or Elise, even if they get the perfect enchantment afterwards.

Your idea of giving AP champions a DoT to help them clear sounds good, and I think that could actually be brought right down to Hunter's Machete: since the item already has a DoT, giving it an AP ratio would allow AP champions (and only AP champions) to have a better time clearing right from the get-go, and would solve the core issue of mages suffering in the jungle due to having large cooldown and mana gates to their spells early on. Aside from that, I think the ideal AP jungle enchantment should probably mirror Luden's Echo: moving, autoattacking and dealing spell damage would build up charges, with the charge generation increased against monsters, and at 100 charges your next instance of spell damage deals bonus damage, scaling with AP (perhaps even max health damage, to help burstier mages deal with tough monsters, as well as have some more gold- and target-agnostic power), though to just one target, likely the most wounded and prioritizing champions and large monsters. Since AP junglers tend to be better at inflicting AoE damage than most other champions, but often have a tough time dealing with big monsters when their cooldowns are down, it would allow mages to clear more smoothly, while still benefiting AP autoattackers as well.

Bouffon dAnglais1 votes

Just make the Machete's passive effect proc on spells.

Jungle Lux God2 votes

In my opinion, Runeglaive is the less bad option of two equally bad options.

Theoretically, Magus could be used by any AP jungler. Problem was, there really weren't any AP junglers. The only viable AP junglers were the AP champions that could both clear well in the early game and didn't have severe mana problems in the mid game either by having mana-efficient enough clears that Trailblazer could fix those problems by itself or because Trailblazer and a mana item or two could fix those problems and your champion had a strong enough early game it didn't matter whether you lost power early game due to those mana items.

Runeglaive made it so that a larger subset of AP champions COULD jungle by removing those mid-game mana constraints, with the exception of a few extreme outliers. The problem? Runeglaive was not nearly as universal a fit as Magus was. Not every champion wanted to use a sheen proc in PVP combat, and those that did were the AP assassins that were already strong in the jungle, while Runeglaive's sheen proc normalizes the clear speed of every champion in the jungle to similar speeds (except for Fiddlesticks and maybe Karthus (don't forget Karthus can still technically auto attack between Q casts)), meaning that the only time clearing strengths matter is the early game. That gives us the same jungling champion pool we had with Magus, except it doesn't have Fiddlesticks, because even though more champions could jungle isn't the same thing as more champions being good junglers.

Personally, I've had a lot of fun playing Runeglaive. I had fun trying out some almost-there jungle picks like Malzahar Brand Zyra and some more off-the-wall jungle picks like Viktor Lux that are all viable almost exclusively because of Runeglaive's mana regeneration, but I've also accepted that Runeglaive isn't good for diversity.

We can't have Magus or Runeglaive because they both reduce diversity in their own ways. We can't have both because it still restricts diversity to those that are already good. We need a new item that promotes diversity without restricting it the way either of those items did.

Daedalus8711 votes

I now get Cinderhulk on jungle Karthus.

Abyssphere1 votes

Eh, say what you want about Runeglaive being too specific but when Magus was around there was not a single AP jungler in the meta aside from Nidalee. Runeglaive appeared and Diana, Elise and AP Evelynn all became viable choices.

Fiddle has suffered, sure, but people like Karma and Akali were never going to be truly "viable", they were just fun off-roles you could play. I'd rather have 4 genuinely good AP junglers than 8 "playable in normals" AP junglers, and Magus was only doing the latter.

Sergeant Stephen1 votes

What about TF?

Count Zubat1 votes

While Magus was kinda not interesting designwise, as it was giving only raw stats, nothing more (although it's gold efficiency was very high), the stats it gave were just fantastic for every AP champion able to jungle, thus, AP jungle diversity was just huge. But Runeglaive... it's just pathetic, while the sheen effect is interesting, it unfortunately completely narrows the number of viable junglers. It made freaking mid lane more diversive than jungle (Runeglaive Ezreal, Nasus, Gankplank, the craze was real). I hope Riot will make a new jungle item in preseason specifically for non-autoattacking junglers, I'm with you, Fiddle, jungle Brand and jungle Karthus mains.

Aboylova921 votes

Depends on the champion. Some like Elise, Diana, and Nid received a clear buff. Then you look at others like Fid, Karthus, Malz, ect just sort of out in no mans land. Maybe part of the problem is they don't know what to do with champions like Fid. To be honest, I was an avid player of his before with Magus, but haven't even touched him since. I've heard some people build Cinder, other don't finish it, and some skip it all together. He seems to still have a decent winrate, but champs like Karthus are no where near where they were before.

As others have said, there was no reason that they BOTH couldn't coexist. They both had the champions pools they worked with, and didn't really interfere with each other.

WarlockLaw1 votes

Sone advice for fiddle jungle is to just not enchant ever. Go spend your money on sonething useful like zhonyas. I don't think any fiddle main ever built runeglaive.

But yeah I liked the cdr and extra 40 ap on magus far more than I liked the mana and aoe from runeglaive. For all they talk about diversity with their changes this season this eliminated all but 5 ap junglers from being viable and one of them doesn't even build a jungle item anymore. As much as jungle karthus/brand/karma weren't that great they were still off builds that were somewhat successful in the jungle but now can't really play because 40 ap is A LOT of damage early on for burst mages and since they don't auto that much in their normal gameplay, they are all but unplayable.

They should've just given magus some mana-steal vs jungle camps

Orders1 votes

I play Diana jungle a lot now and I have to say Runeglaive is much better on her because she does run out of mana fast early on. Before with the Magus enchantment I had to get RoA after because I would run out of mana so fast in the jungle.

However, like most people, I agree that both Magus and Runeglaive should be in the game. Runeglaive is only good on champs that would buy Lich Bane regularly, and Magus worked really well other AP junglers like Fiddlesticks and Cho'Gath. AD junglers have both Warrior and Devourer so I did not see a point as to why Riot would remove Magus. Runeglaive surely does not work well with junglers that don't normally AA.

Wînter Fox1 votes

The only one hurt by Magus being gone is Fiddle. And now I don't have to see retarded stuff like AP jungle Tristana or Karthus anymore.

Good trade off IMO

Laustin Space1 votes

I used to run jungle Akali but now there is nothing you can use for a jungle item on her. Runeglaive actually makes her deal a lot less damage then if you got the old magus, gunblade or even a lichbane and it also reduces her spellvamp noticeably as well. She doesn't need the wave clear either since trailblaizer smite is the go to for her anyway because she has plenty enough damage and sticking power not to mention you can smite nearby minions in skirmishes for extra spellvamp. I tried her with the warrior enchant using the gunblade/triforce build that was popular after her e nerf and before her compensation buffs and that also felt extremely lackluster. I feel really bad for anyone who play Fiddlesticks who are now forced to play a wannabe Amumu build with cinderhulk.

BeatinWarDrumz1 votes

This is true, but IMO they shoulda kept both

previously, there were more options for ap junglers but aside from fiddle, they were all subpar to warrior generally - with there are fewer, but the ones who benefit with it can really shine.

LeafyGreen1 votes

They should just bring back Spirit of the Spectral Wraith!

Anyone?

JedenVojak1 votes

Very often in the early jungle season, I would often just build the smite upgrade than build real items for the rest of the game.

My advice would be don't build runeglaive at all, just build other ap items and go with those.

SnazzyTheMister1 votes

i would just like to point out that runeglaive is something like 125% gold efficient without the passive. that's pretty good. magus was something like 170% gold efficient. that's a lot better. champions fiddle and karthus that just wanted raw stats got the most out of that, runeglaive is fine on then but it doesn't feel as strong as magus cus magus was kinda broken.

i would also like to point out how runeglaive is riots way of giving mage junglers a source of mana which works alright cus everyone should be weaving in autos while clearing, even karthus.

i can see a struggle where you get to 6 items and runeglaive doesn't really feel like an item you want anymore but you might still want your smite and that sucks but i don't think the focus of runeglaive should be on the buffed autos cus the item is efficient without it.

Lintu Puck1 votes

"Lets take a step back to season 4. Magus was still in the game. Anyone who wanted to jungle AP, could." I think you might of answered your own question there. Maybe right didn't want every AP based champ roaming the jungle, granted I'd be amused to see a RumbleRumble Jungle. That would make his "Rumble In The Jungle" skin so much more true and amusing. XD

Llanite1 votes

The only jungler not benefiting is Fiddle.

As long as you do ONE autoattack every 3s, rune is better than magus.

Adanim1 votes

So here is my argument on the matter, and this is based on what I have seen through spectating and playing.

Back when there was the Spirit of the Spectral Wraith, these were the junglers who considered building the item at all: Amumu Diana Elise Evelynn Fiddlesticks Fizz Nidalee Nunu Poppy Sejuani Zac

So from this list, we can take ZacAmumu Nunu Sejuani out because they were played as tanks anyway (though Amumu used it quite often). Then we can remove Nidalee Poppy Fizz Diana because they were mostly played in solo lanes anyway (Diana would jungle occasionally, but she was mostly in a solo lane). Elise always built the tank item and Evelynn built the AD or tank item. That leaves Fiddlesticks being the ONLY competitively played AP jungler. Elise Evelynn Nidalee and Diana all received nerfs and/or reworks in their kits over time, and they were not played much anymore (Nidalee was awful because it took a while to finalize where they wanted her to be in terms of power). But in the jungle, the only junglers who were building the AP item were Fiddlesticks Nidalee and the occasional Diana. Now that Runeglaive took the place of Magus, we see Elise Evelynn Diana Nidalee FizzEkko all being played in the jungle with the AP item, even though Ekko and Fizz build the tank item more often than the AP one. Jungle diversity actually rose with the addition of the Runeglaive. Yes it hurt Fiddlesticks a lot, but balance changes directly to him can bring him up to par with laners and possibly supports, because right now he doesn't have much identity anymore. But diversity in the jungle is higher with Runeglaive, because before it came along there weren't many AP junglers that were being played outside of normal games (there were really only 1.5 Fiddlesticks and sometimes Nidalee ), and they were mostly cheese anyway. No one played them in ranked games unless they were 100% committed to the style, but they were a minority. And Cinderhulk has given the Tanks Amumu Nunu Sejuani Zac a place in the jungle and they no longer need the AP.

Just for a perspective visual, here is a before and after.

Before

AD: Aatrox Evelynn JarvanIV Khazix LeeSin MasterYi Nocturne Olaf Pantheon Rengar Shaco Trundle Tryndamere XinZhao Vi MonkeyKing

AP: Fiddlesticks Nidalee

Tank: Amumu Chogath DrMundo Elise Hecarim Maokai Nasus Nautilus Rammus Sejuani Nunu Shyvana Skarner Udyr Volibear Warwick Zac

After

AD: Aatrox JarvanIV Jax Khazix LeeSin MasterYi Nocturne Pantheon Rengar Shaco Trundle Tryndamere Udyr XinZhao Vi MonkeyKing

AP: Diana Ekko Elise Evelynn Nidalee Poppy

Tank: Amumu Chogath Ekko Gragas Hecarim Nasus Nunu Olaf Rammus RekSai Sejuani Shen Shyvana Sion Skarner Volibear Warwick Zac

In the grand scheme of things, with all the changes going around, jungle diversity is at an all time high, with the most dramatic change in the AP slot.

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