So I played HOTS with my non moba playing brother...

KING ATTILA··215 votes·11,038 views

...

And we had so much fucking fun. He picked it up quickly and there was little to no toxicity....actually there was no toxicity. He picked up Raynor and got his basics down very fast. We even went on a winstreak.

I can say, without a doubt, that if my brother tried playing League with me for the first time, it would not have even been CLOSE to as fun an experience as HOTS was.

New player experience for League is pathetically dreadful and Riot has failed to address this problem. ..

219 Comments

Adrian Umbra67 votes

It's frustrating for me to see this post getting downvotes when someone is stating their opinion and pointing out some significant, glaring problems that League has been quite bad at addressing. Specifically the problems with new players constantly struggling against smurfs, Riot's excessively poor job of keeping up with their own in-site knowledge base, and a rather poor tutorial experience in comparison with other MOBA games. It's almost like the downvotes are just for them mentioning a MOBA that isn't League, which is an extremely poor attitude to have as a community.

So will you guys quit flaming the OP for coming back to this game to offer some advice from their experiences elsewhere?

KING ATTILA4 votes

I wish this thread had much more comments like yours. Cheers.

LaceUp238 votes

In a community where people intentionally try to lose the game, you except people on the boards to behavior more maturely?

Zenthon Prime32 votes

I have a decent hunch of why it's getting downvoted. My friends and I also tried HotS, and pretty much all of us had a very difference experience than you did in terms of toxicity. In fact, since as early as the alpha HotS has been well known for having probably the worst soloque experience of any major MOBA because it's so team-based. And naturally the tutorial for HotS is better because HotS isn't even half as complex as League.

A better example would be Smite, which does a lot of thing better than League IMO.

KING ATTILA6 votes

I'm not high enough level to play ranked yet in Hots, but realistically there is still some toxicity...although toxicity has been around in gaming for a while.

Syvenon9 votes

well as it is, HotS causes a lot of toxicity by how awful their matchmaking is. It's honestly shocking if you don't have someone with at least 300 games played in every match, even if it's only your third match ever.

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

I remember getting placed with a rank 20-something during one of my fist few games.

. . . They didn't like me much.

KingKong23505 votes

I can say that yes, the game is very fun when you first start out. The more you play it though, the more frustrating your games become. Matchmaking is totally broken. Your team will lose 90% of the 4v5s while the one new player sticks to his lane bottom. The stomps and close games are fun, and the bad games are really really bad. Unfortunately, the bad games happen 70% of the time

Ariel the Cruel9 votes

The stomps and close games are fun

There's nothing fun about a stomp. Doesn't matter which side you're on.

Leetri2 votes

Very true. I had a blast with that game in closed beta, but it just got gradually worse and worse and I completely stopped playing it after 2 months. It's simply not fun to play when 9/10 games are stomps (in either direction) and the only hero I really liked gets nerfed every time he becomes good (Abathur).

Sir Fuzzi2 votes

My experiences with Smite were a lot of whiners. Not as much toxicity, but definitely people complaining in general.

Honestly, MOBAs are inherently competitive by nature. Competition might be the quickest way to breed toxicity, because there will always be an asshat who believes their win is more important than others'.

Durzaka5 votes

The only thing OP even said that was remotely a suggestion/flaw was that the new player experience is awful.

But that is literally the entire genre. Blizzard avoided it by making their game idiot proof and simplifying 3/4 of the things people actually play MOBAs for.

You really cant argue that HotS is a more newb friendly game. It fucking is, objectively so. But the discussion is whether that is better or not, and that hasnt happened to any real degree in this post.

ZACKandATTACK29 votes

Most new MOBA players would probably have a better time playing a HoTs. HoTs is a lot simpler and almost feels like TDM.

KING ATTILA16 votes

It is simple while retaining depth. It is accurate to say new players have a better time with HOTS than League, which is the point of my post to begin with.

Sir Yamazuki2 votes

{quoted}

It is simple while retaining depth. It is accurate to say new players have a better time with HOTS than League, which is the point of my post to begin with.

Anyone new at anything will have a "better time" with the easier option. Although, give them enough time at both and their opinion as to what is better may change. If I were new to both I would only choose hots in the short term and in the long term LoL would end up being the better option to me. Not every game needs to be easy to understand and get into.

KING ATTILA13 votes

Played league for 5 years but I have more fun with Hots. "harder" doesn't mean better.

LeafyGreen2 votes

I play league much more thank smite and I feel the same way but about SMITE in which SMITE it way more fun than league to be honest. I also play SMITE on the Xbox and its like a perfect transition.... Although SMITE it more fun I seem to play league more because I am just attached to it and I am honestly much better at league.

Syvenon6 votes

I totally agree, whenever I'm playing smite I am just like "this game is just so much better. Why do I still play league?" And then I go back and keep playing league...

Durzaka32 votes

yeah im sorry, I cant take you seriously if you think that HotS retains even a fraction of the depth of the MOBA genre.

KING ATTILA14 votes

The simple fact is that my brother has never played a moba in his life, and we still had fun and won games in HOTS. League would have been a different story...by being a pain in the ass. How many new players has League driven away because the new gamer experience is shit as best unless you devote a lot of time to it? Hell, even if there is a shit game of HOTS with toxicity, it only lasts about 15 minutes at least.

Poske9 votes

When I started playing League I imedieatly liked it

But then again that was in like 2009

Teraxe13 votes

I remember the days when people slammed league because it was too simple, now they slamming league because it is too complex, LMAO.

IcyPepper11 votes

The tutorials are useless, the players new players are queued with can be quite rude "omg stop feeding!" and there's not a whole lot that Riot has done. I still can't believe how tryhard level 5 players can be... everyone sucks when they're new, and bots can only teach so much.

Pinker 102 votes

Bots can teach you a lot... Ever 1v5 bots?

Deep Terror Nami7 votes

That's like introducing a child to Dark Souls instead of Mario... the "problem" is actually intentional and not a problem at all. (not the toxicity but the environment)

500000000000000011 votes

League is designed so that new players need to practice to get better (CS, map awareness, counterplays, etc.), but League really is unfriendly to new players. The tutorial is inadequate, and it's difficult to enjoy PvP because of smurfs.

There are intentional "problems," but there are also unintentional, unaddressed problems, too.

Chespin20136 votes

hots can be just as toxic as league really just as any other moba or any online game

Revlak Javik3 votes

Tetris can be as toxic as LoL is, too. Any game can be toxic, if you dedicate yourself to making a sour experience for everyone.

Anidan6 votes

The fucking Tetris Gods never deign to bless me with a goddamn line block. Toxic asshole just hates me. Wish I could report him.

JustMyBassCannon6 votes

This is much more a community problem than an actual in-game problem. Players tend to make the player experience worse than learning the actual game does.

At worst, the in-game issues of League involve the burden of knowledge. You have to know what an archetype is, how a champion scales, and what items help which types of champions. At the very least, you have to know a build for a champion.

In HotS, you don't have any burden of knowledge; it's all learned as you play, because it is vastly simpler by design. Not worse or less fun, but simpler. You can focus on learning mechanics without worrying about literally anything that is important in League; you don't even need to last-hit anything. You quite literally get kills for being involved in the fights, and gain full minion XP bonuses for being near them when they die. You can even take a monster camp without actually being the one that killed them.

HotS takes out almost every single important element of MOBAs. The only ones that remain are objective control (half of which, again, are not based on being able to actually kill things) and pushing lanes (the whole thing about MOBAs being siege-focused RTS games).

Again, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Players can focus entirely on getting better at individual and teamwork mechanics.

But this comparison is on the level of saying, "I let my brother play Skyrim and he had a fantastic time, I don't think he would have enjoyed Dwarf Fortress very much."

Minrog4 votes

To be fair there are only 3 things important in league, and I'm not sure those things translate to all MOBA's or even that they should. Last hitting, side lane wave control, vision; that's the entirety of a LoL game for the first 30-40 minutes. Eventually there's a team fight or two at Baron/Dragon and the game is over.

What HotS is doing is different and I kind of like it. Especially the no last hitting, which I find tedious to do game in and game out; worse when you have to do creep denial.

HotS can make me a Kool Aid believer if they make an Alterac Valley. Maybe 20 v 20 instead of 40 v 40, but either way that would be so awesome. You know Riot/Valve ain't doing anything like that

JustMyBassCannon5 votes

And to that, I say wonderful. It's nice to know that different companies can make different MOBAs that focus on different elements that are enjoyable for different players. I think every genre of game should aspire to that.

Generally, I enjoy MOBAs. I obviously enjoy League, I've had some fun with DotA2, find HotS very enjoyable (Zeratul is my bro), and I hear good things from Smite once in a while though I haven't played it. I heard Dawngate was awesome for the time it existed. They're all awesome for different reasons. Like any genre of game, the biggest and the best all have different core focuses and design principles that make them completely diverse in experience, despite the similarities.

I could probably come up with a few more genre "similar-but-different-experience" combinations, but I guess the point is that there's a game in each genre that fits different types of people. I'm actually really glad that HotS happened, because I would generally be reticent to suggest it to friends that don't learn mechanics-heavy games very well. Now, I have an outlet; a MOBA that's far simpler in design, but still keeps some of the core experience and the control design.

TheJuzzo6 votes

I gave that game a serious go, wanted to like it.

Had ragers, just like lol, had clueless teammates too.

Add to that the fact that all the abilities feel underwhelming, and you cannot pick up slack for your team, and I just couldn't give it any more of my time.

Galewings5 votes

When league's own beginner guide on their own website states that matchmaking is "fair" yet riot themselves refuse to do anything about smurfing since they don't see it as a problem (not that I disagree) says a lot on how the new player experience in this game is.

Mimaropa3 votes

You can't really do anything to smurf accounts. If riot started permabanning them, there might be some collateral damage like banning a nonsmurf. You can't really know if said account is a smurf. In lol, you start playing against bots anyways for a decent amount of games. Difficulty just ramps up when they start blind picks because they fighting against smurfs. All games have these super elite players that stomp you because you're a noob(ex: shooting games, other mobas and etc) Lol just requires a lot of dedication and practice since this is a skill based game which just guts out a lot and leave few behind

Auryiel5 votes

For 2 seconds I was like ''wtf does Starcraft II have to do with this?''

Niaphim5 votes

The difference is HotS doesn't offer much eSports highlights, it's new and much less popular, so it is mainly considered as a "MOBA just to have fun". The more valuable your status becomes (how many millions of players are in LoL now?) the more people start to care. When Blizzard starts to organize tournaments with significant rewards and more people will play ranked, HotS community will become the same as in almost any other competitive game. People will learn to spot who is losing their game, who is underperforming etc. Just give it time.

SIayton5 votes

HotS is a much better game. LoL is a much better MOBA.

Since picking it up though I really just don't have fun with league anymore. Its like all the stuff I hate about league is gone and overall just more focused on the fun aspect of the genre. Its also MUCH easier to get into. Kind of shows the design flaws overall with league, but I know this won't be accepted or well received considering I'm saying it on a league boards.

Narasimha4 votes

Not taking sides, and i'm just jumping in for the hell of it, but you've actually picked an amusing example. One of the most commonly cited issues with HoTS is the high level match-making, where level 40s find themselves with level 20s, and rank 10 will be in ranked with ranked 30 (ranked goes from 50 - 1, with 1 being the highest). Kind of the opposite of League. Still, hopefully that can be mixed with more players coming in

Lajinn54 votes

Reminds me of how my friend somewhat enjoyed league at first and then completely dropped it because cancer smurfs ruined the game for them with harassment, verbal abuse, and a variety of other things that smurfs tend to do.

Zair Umbras4 votes

Eh. The only reason why HotS has a decent new player experience is because it's a new game. All games start off as this 'AMAZING' thing because everyone fricken sucks at it. No one knows what they're doing outside of basic stuff. To make it worse though is that HotS doesn't have much of a 'meta' and blind pick chooses between different maps, which your champ may or may not suck ungodly bad at that map. Like, say, if you get a team with limited wave clear on the spider maps or a team that doesn't synergize well heroes-wise on the raising golems map. You can get heavily boned and with the game being brand new, barely a couple months old, everyone SUCKS at it so no one can really judge. Last time I played, just before they released it out of beta, there wasn't even an ALL chat, which removes a huge level of toxicity since the enemies can't patronize some one for sucking either. With an All chat, people have access to 9 different people insulting them. Without it, there's only 4 others.

League used to be very welcoming to noobs back in S1 and early S2. S2 worlds put LoL into a whole new level of playing field though. Popularity shot up so much that there was a flux of people watching e-sports and deciding to play the game, which also came with people making new accounts because of being stuck under 1300 ELO because they flunked their first 10 games in ranked, or they got temp banned for being toxic, etc. Players with some understanding end up at the bottom and berating their teammates while the game's popularity attracts the disgusting crowd. Just give HotS a year or two when it really hits the competitive playing field and actually has a nicely sized roster of heroes with more unique abilities. It'll attract the crowd that everyone hates in League and it'll become to new popular thing because the damn thing is stupid proof. Just look at the system. You have 3 abilities by level 1, which makes people happy since there's no wind up time except on the ultimates. Then there's the fact there's no items or skill points, you just choose specific boosts to certain abilities or a clicky. It's all cookie cutter stuff with very limited variety in what you can do, which will be its downfall.

Games that are too easy will end up failing. In Mists of Pandaria, when Blizzard took an already very easy game, they made it even EASIER and they ended up losing about 5mil subscribers in just that expansion alone. Easy games attract a certain kind of crowd that can turn incredibly toxic in an instant. The one thing I can say about DotA 2 is that it doesn't have the toxicity League has, because it's not as simplistic or user friendly, so the toxic baddies who think they're Billy Badass are usually scared away, though it makes elitists more common. League is complex and user friendly, so it has elitists and it has Billy Badass wanna-bes, which makes for an awkward form of toxicity. HotS will soon get the ones who like the overly easy games and with how poor the matchmaking is, the community it doomed unless Blizzard works quick. Through my own experience with Blizz? They're not known to work quickly. They're slower than Riot. Hell, they make Valve's work on Half Life 3 look quick.

LVL 5 PORO4 votes

I see a lot of people saying they had fun but whenever I play, I just feel bored.

therealdragon3 votes

I think the point people are trying to make:

HotS has no items, kills and assists are the same thing, everything does its own thing.

It literally has no depth at all. If you can manage to kill the enemy team before they kill you, you manage to push and win. Provided you listen to the map and figure out what the hell everything is you can win pretty much every game.

in moba modes: HotS is easy mode LoL is medium mode DotA is hard mode

Clapper of Asses3 votes

I helped my brother make a account on League he needed help winning due to the amount of smurfs in PvP games.

yukonl3 votes

I honestly can't tell the difference in toxicity, or in any PvP game that requires teamwork.

Cyrex Wingblade3 votes

Here's my two-cents, as I still play both games.

  1. I play vsAI almost strictly. I dislike PVP in general, and it is not part of what draws me to the games at all. I /try/ PVP periodically after doing a week worth of research to make sure I have items and runes matched up, then realize I don't have the IP for the runes I need, so just focus on the items, try it out, spend 45 minutes stressing out, then go back to vsAI

  2. Toxicity is not game specific. I've had to deal with the same type of jerks/rudeness in both games (LoL and HotS)

  3. I prefer HotS's mechanics, and I prefer some of the champions/variety LoL provides.

LoL is, in my meaningless opinion, over-complex. Yes, I recognize that is why it has grown as it has, and why it is taken seriously enough for esports to start being taken as a 'sport' for coverage, etc. I just also believe that spoils a lot of the 'fun' directly for that pay-off of 'taken more seriously'.

HotS is more fun to play for me, and I strongly disagree with the opinions that you 'don't feel like you did anything'. Very frequently, it's clear that I or me and my wife carried the game for the team because we focus the objectives properly and push our lane to force the other team into defense and then defeat. Timing and familiarity with each map AND your own champion are rewarded, and in a far more reasonable time-frame than LoL.

LoL is a long-term investment if you want to /feel/ the payoff. That is likely TOO LONG for many players. HotS can give you that sensation within a single game.

Yes, HotS is far simpler, and I am grateful for that fact. I actually PVP more in HotS than I do in LoL because it is more approachable (But I still focus on vsAI, that is where I relax and have fun with various heroes).

Quirkilicious3 votes

That's because HoTS isn't as mechanic heavy as LoL and really that's the major learning curve with LoL.

HoTS is purely objective control and map rotations, which is fairly easy to pick up if you play other games.

Meep Man2 votes

I dont get how people are saying HOTS is a MOBA easy mode as well. Go on HOTS and try and play the likes of Abathur, Stitches, or Tassadar in ranked play. Things get hard and insane quickly, especially Abathur. HOTS isn't easy, it just has a large range of difficulty for how easy a character is to play. Raynor is, without a doubt, the best new player character I have ever seen in a MOBA. No huge issues and will never fall out of favor while also having easy mechanics. Abathur is a huge new step in the right direction. A difficult hero with great potential and fun new mechanics to spice up the MOBA genre. Thats half the reason to play HOTS and thats because it loves to break the normal LoL rules with it's characters. People can outrange towers and can interact globally, like Abathur. Sure, if you choose to play simple characters when you are a hardcore MOBA fam, you might get bored. Just bump up the character difficulty and you might think differently about HOTS.

MineCraft Hentai1 votes

The only problem i've seen with HOTS is that gold is hard to get once quests are done and the heroes cost a lot. But other than that, no lag, super balanced compared to LoL, little toxicity compared to LoL multiple talents you can pick to make a hero different every time you play and best of all you can play really whoever you like, there's not really super op characters that are dominating the game, and I think its awesome. But hey, my experience has been fun with Heroes of the Storm, and it's my opinion, i'm not saying you're retarded if you don't like heroes of the storm, i'm not saying you have to like it.

Onegarion3 votes

You clearly haven't played the game much if you call it super balanced and No OP champs.

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