Vayne is a problem IMO

HandheldBrandon·Feb 17, 2015·5 votes·741 views

She may have a tough laning phase but its completely and utterly outweighed by the fact that there is absolutely no way to build against her W and that in her laning phase if she gets 2 auto attacks and a condemn off her W passive allows her to win any trades because against squishy champions it functions like a pop of burst damage. Her W is still balanced around the old Meta Golem Bruiser Era and hasn't really been changed since. A champion with a passive ability that negates any possible way to counterbuild it is in my eyes unhealthy. Is Vayne a huge problem right now. No. Is it a lingering problem that needs to be addressed. Yes.

Vayne already has a enough in her kit lowering her burst on her W will not hurt her int he slightest and honestly changing it to physical damage that scales wont hurt either at least that way we can counter build against it.

12 Comments

KraigishFeb 18, 20154 votes

Absolutely NOT.

Vayne is perfect the way she is. I play Vayne alot, and she is fine, I have played games against a good ADC where they totally dominate me in the early game to a point where i am useless in the late game, and I have also had games where i just slaughter the other ADC. Considering she is "weak" in the early game you should take advantage of that the same way She takes advantage of her scaling in the late game. Ways to build around her in the late game, is a thornmail for one which reflects so much damage back to me i don't even realize i'm dying as I burst down the opposing player. Another way is CC, if playing against a Vayne, get a high CC support, like Leona, Nami, Morgana, etc.

Another thing I see you speak about condemn, alot of you might think landing a condemn is super easy, but it always isn't if you get the angle wrong by half a cm, you are done for, and there is a very high chance of you losing the trade. As of now I feel Vayne is very balanced and there are alot of things you can do to counter her.

That's just my opinion though.

P.S. I am only S5 Bronze, S4 Silver. May be I haven't taken other things into account as you may have more knowledge then me a lower ELO player.

HandheldBrandonFeb 18, 20151 votes

Your opinion is automatically bias since you play Vayne alot.

Like i said Vaynes early game isn't the strongest but her uncounterable damage that scales with the enemies level and any health related defensive items the enemy buys is ridiculous. Imagine if Gnars W was true damage percent health shred in Mini Gnar form. Do you know how many people would scream for nerfs? Its the same situation except its on a squishy carry whose sole purpose is to ruin someones day.

Vayne only gets stronger as the game goes and she passively gains power from her W the more health the enemy has and no amount of defense armor or otherwise will mitigate it nor counter it. If it were reduced by armor i wouldn't care as much but its uncounterable percent health true damage plus a base amount of 60 at max rank. Thats 15 less damage than Irelia's W damage not counting that Irelia is melee and has to be in your face and doesn't have percent health true damage shred.

Also i would never disregard your opinion just because your rank is so low that doesn't matter me. What does matter is that your opinion is bias from the start.

Sightless66Feb 18, 20151 votes

Well, here's an opinion from someone who doesn't like playing Vayne and plays pretty much any AD carry except Vayne. She's fine.

You can push her around and outtrade her easily in lane even with her W damage, particularly if you abuse the fact that she has to hit 3 times in a row to get her W damage (force her to hit someone else, and her damage drops off horribly). She gets strong as the game goes on, but she always carries the weakness of having no way to do damage outside of her 550 auto range, meaning she can be zoned out of a fight without problems. She has plenty of counterplay avalivable, and while she's harder to counterbuild than other carries, she still does a large majority of her damage as physical damage, which you can build against. Counterplay is more important to design than counterbuilding.

She's not in a position to receive nerfs right now, and both of your proposed changes are significant nerfs. They are unnecessary. Even if she was in a position to be nerfed, they would likely not be good options because you are just aiming at reducing important strengths instead of introducing weaknesses.

Final point: you probably shouldn't make such a big deal about bias. You pretty clearly dislike Vayne, but you're jumping on this guy for liking her. What makes your bias acceptable but his so damning? Also, why should it matter if he's biased? He's still making an argument and making points, and you can respond to those in exactly the same way whether he is biased or not. Just respond to arguments he uses and don't go for the poisoning the well strategy. If you can beat his arguments, you shouldn't need to attack his character.

HandheldBrandonFeb 18, 20151 votes

First.

You cannot counterbuild against he W damage no matter what you build its always going to do huge damage to you whether you are a tank or a squishy. Every other AD carry can be countered by building either Armor or Magic resist and a mix of health. Vayne has no way to counter you can build armor to reduce her auto damage but he W damage will still hit incredibly hard regardless.

Second

550 range is nothing to scoff at Sivir has 500 range and she does perfectly fine in lane even without Vaynes self peel. Jinx has 525 range unless in rocket mode. Kog'maws base range is 500 as well unless his W is active so the range factor is not a weakness considering she has no where near the lowest range.

Third

I dont dislike or like Vayne i play most ADC's primarily and a good mix of other champs i have no particular favorite. Also his being Bias automatically means that he likes the champion and he harbors a favoritism towards her therefore his opinion is skewed.

Sightless66Feb 18, 20152 votes

Regrading your first point:

Her physical damage is the significant majority of her damage. You can build against that. It's slightly less effective than normal because of her W, but you still can build against her. However, this is not very important because the major factor in playing against someone is counterplay, not counterbuilding, which Vayne has plenty of. The fact that you can build against the majority of her damage is sufficient.

Besides, there is actually a counterbuild to her W. Any attack speed reduction hurts her more than other AD carries because of her reliance on a 3-hit effect to do damage. Low skill damage and high autoattack damage = vulnerability to AS reduction.

Regarding your second point:

Sivir has her Q and W to extend her effective range well over her 500 auto range. I can hurt people who are far out of autoattack range of me. That is why despite Sivir having a lower range than Vayne, Vayne has just as many problems with range as Sivir does. Kog and Jinx both have access to long range attacks, both on basic attacks and on abilities. Range is not a weakness for them, it is a strength. Even if they are zoned from a fight, they can be useful. Vanye can't. You are either in the standard autoattack range, or you are dead weight. If you can't get close to a fight because a mage or assassin is threatening to instagib you if you do, then you're useless as Vayne, while other carries could still use skills or longer autoattack ranges to be useful. That is a very, very strong form of counterplay against her. Every other ADC has some way to be useful beyond the standard autoattack range. Vayne doesn't.

Range is absolutely a weakness for her. It's one of the easiest things to manipulate when playing against her. You can not write this off as being insignificant.

I dont dislike or like Vayne

You're asking for nerfs to a champion who isn't in a strong position. You're also arguing that one of her clearest weaknesses (range) is not actually a weakness, even though you are likely a good enough player to recognize strengths and weaknesses.. Forgive me if I'm unconvinced.

Also his being Bias automatically means that he likes the champion and he harbors a favoritism towards her therefore his opinion is skewed.

So? He's still presenting arguments that you can respond to. What's the point of saying his opinions is skewed? If it's so obviously wrong, just respond to the things he actually says. Whatever point his arguments come from, they can stand on their own merit. He can make good or bad points regardless of whether or not he is biased. After all, I think you're biased, and yet I'm willing to just address your points without claiming that whether or not you are biased affects them in any way. You're biased, and it doesn't matter in the slightest.

HandheldBrandonFeb 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Regrading your first point:

Her physical damage is the significant majority of her damage. You can build against that. It's slightly less effective than normal because of her W, but you still can build against her. However, this is not very important because the major factor in playing against someone is counterplay, not counterbuilding, which Vayne has plenty of. The fact that you can build against the majority of her damage is sufficient.

Regarding your second point:

Sivir has her Q and W to extend her effective range well over her 500 auto range. I can hurt people who are far out of autoattack range of me. That is why despite Sivir having a lower range than Vayne, Vayne has just as many problems with range as Sivir does. Kog and Jinx both have access to long range attacks, both on basic attacks and on abilities. Range is not a weakness for them, it is a strength. Even if they are zoned from a fight, they can be useful. Vanye can't. You are either in the standard autoattack range, or you are dead weight. If you can't get close to a fight because a mage or assassin is threatening to instagib you if you do, then you're useless as Vayne, while other carries could still use skills or longer autoattack ranges to be useful. That is a very, very strong form of counterplay against her. Every other ADC has some way to be useful beyond the standard autoattack range. Vayne doesn't.

Range is absolutely a weakness for her. It's one of the easiest things to manipulate when playing against her. You can not write this off as being insignificant.

You say her clearest weakness is her range and im telling you its been proven that its not if people like Sivir can dominate the pro scene with 50 less range than Vayne can do far better with her self peel and her 550 range.

You're asking for nerfs to a champion who isn't in a strong position. You're also arguing that one of her clearest weaknesses (range) is not actually a weakness, even though you are likely a good enough player to recognize strengths and weaknesses.. Forgive me if I'm unconvinced.

Just because i think she needs a nerf doesn't mean i need to like her or dislike her. For example you think Riot hates chogath when they bump up his mana costs. No because they have no clear favoritism to him.

So? He's still presenting arguments that you can respond to. What's the point of saying his opinions is skewed? If it's so obviously wrong, just respond to the things he actually says. Whatever point his arguments come from, they can stand on their own merit. He can make good or bad points regardless of whether or not he is biased. Ater all, I think you're biased, and yet I'm willing to just address your points.

Sightless66Feb 18, 20151 votes

You say her clearest weakness is her range and im telling you its been proven that its not if people like Sivir can dominate the pro scene with 50 less range than Vayne can do far better with her self peel and her 550 range.

No, because as I said, Sivir has range extensions. Both her Q and her W allow her to extend her range beyond 500. I can be hitting a bruiser or tank as Sivir and still damaging the backline with my Q or with W bounces. Vayne can't. Sivir also has advantages Vayne doesn't, in her AoE damage her team utility, both of which decrease the weakness that her low autoattack range presents in a teamfight scenario. Sivir can win a teamfight without autoattacking by using R and Q. Vayne can't. She's completely limited by her autoattack range. There is no way for her to do anything if she is being zoned from autoattacking. That is a weakness.

Sivir is a strong champion despite having a range weakness. That does not mean that her range is not a weakness, and it absolutely doesn't mean that Vayne doesn't have a range weakness. I do not see how Sivir doing well proves that Vayne does not have a weakness with her range. A much better conclusion is just that Sivir is stronger than Vayne.

Vayne can do far better with her self peel and her 550 range

But she doesn't, because she's a weaker champion, and she's more vulnerable to getting zoned from a fight than Sivir because she lacks Sivir's ranged skills and team utility.

I have two questions I have to ask you in order to understand where you are coming from. Given that you do not consider Vayne to have a range weakness, which AD carries do you consider to have a range weakness? Second, what weaknesses do you think Vayne has?

Just because i think she needs a nerf doesn't mean i need to like her or dislike her. For example you think Riot hates chogath when they bump up his mana costs. No because they have no clear favoritism to him.

If you're going to bring up things I wrote from months ago, quoting me might help. his aren't exactly comparable incidents. First, I don't think Riot hates Cho. I think they hate the general design of certain large campions and pursue overcautious and often ineffective balance as a result. Second, you can't just say "they have no clear favoritism to him" as a factual statement. By their own admission, favoritism for certain classes of champion is a factor in who receives changes and who doesn't. Third, Riot's balance (whether I like or dislike it) comes from extensive analysis and testing. Your opinions of Vayne don't (they can't. It's not something players have access to). Finally, I just exaggerate shit because I'm grumpy, not because I take it as fact. You'll note that I don't make numerical or balance claims in the same way I just shoot shit about Riot. Different context. Different incidents.

WIth all that out of the way, you are correct that thinking a champion needs a nerf doesn't mean you have to like or dislike her (I could also say that enjoying a champion doesn't guarantee that you can't take an objective eye towards their balance). However, there is certainly a relationship between hating a champion and thinking they need to be nerfed hard, and you certainly do want her nerfed, even though she seems to me to be in a slightly weak position. You also claimed that these things wouldn't hurt her, when they seem specifically designed to hurt her, and quite a bit. You hating her isn't a 100% thing, but if I had to bet, that's where I'd put my money.

You don't have to keep trying to convince me that you don't hate Vayne. It isn't important. Your statements and arguments stand on their own, no matter your reason for making them. I'll believe you only if you can convince me that Vayne actually needs nerfs. So, let's talk about that instead.

HandheldBrandonFeb 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No, because as I said, Sivir has range extensions. Both her Q and her W allow her to extend her range beyond 500. I can be hitting a bruiser or tank as Sivir and still damaging the backline with my Q or with W bounces. Vayne can't. Sivir also has advantages Vayne doesn't, in her AoE damage her team utility, both of which decrease the weakness that her low autoattack range presents in a teamfight scenario. Sivir can win a teamfight without autoattacking by using R and Q. Vayne can't. She's completely limited by her autoattack range. There is no way for her to do anything if she is being zoned from autoattacking. That is a weakness.

Sivir is a strong champion despite having a range weakness. That does not mean that her range is not a weakness, and it absolutely doesn't mean that Vayne doesn't have a range weakness. I do not see how Sivir doing well proves that Vayne does not have a weakness with her range. A much better conclusion is just that Sivir is stronger than Vayne.

Sivir is NOT stronger than Vayne.

Pit the 2 champions against eacher with equally skilled players and i guarantee you Vayne will come out on top every time because of 2 factors.

Stealth on the ult will break Sivir's Targeting
Vayne's W will act as a burst spike of damage to the low health Sivir.

Thats factoring in even the Sivir blocking a condemn with Spell Shield an Equally skilled Vayne VS an equally skilled Sivir will have Vayne come out on top simply because Vayne has far more Mobility repositioning tools and if needed Self peel. Not too mention Vayne can keep up With Sivir's ult due to her chasing passive. The only time Sivir will win this fight is if she Manages to land both sides of her Q and if she is drastically ahead. Otherwise Vayne wins 90 percent of the time.

Sivir is picked in Pro plays not because of her Q damage or her ability to extend her auto's with W but because of her team Utility. If they wanted Single target damage their Primary choices would be Vayne and Graves. Vayne because nothing you build will stop her W damage and Graves because of his massive up front burst.

By comparison Kalista is chosen because of her ability to completely and utterly Kite any and all champs that can't 100-0 her in one instant.

But she doesn't, because she's a weaker champion, and she's more vulnerable to getting zoned from a fight than Sivir because she lacks Sivir's ranged skills and team utility.

Vayne is not more prone to getting Zoned Doublelift has proven that on multiple occasions if anything Sivir is more prone to getting Zoned because she has no self peel to fall back on or stealth. If someone jumps on Vayne she has 2 options which she can use to keep herself safe and possibly turn a fight around.

Condemn

Either into a wall or away from herself to give her some breathing room.

2.Ultimate plus tumble

The stealth provided by this will break targeting and allow her to give herself some breathing room or reposition to setup a condemn or throw the enemy off.

Both of these can also help her turn the fight.

Sivir by comparison once she gets Jumped on if the enemy is not deterred by her Q damage she will most likely be forced to flash out or fight face to face with her attacker and unlike Vayne if her attacker happens to be a beefy fighter Sivir will most likely go down in a sustained fight.

I have two questions I have to ask you in order to understand where you are coming from. Given that you do not consider Vayne to have a range weakness, which AD carries do you consider to have a range weakness? Second, what weaknesses do you think Vayne has?

No Champion has a significant range weakness unless we are counting just low range as a weakness then Sivir even with her ability to artificially extend her range would be near the bottom probably after kog'maw who even though he can extend his range his tank shred capabilities and his lack of mobility being easily countered makes him a far weaker pick than Vayne who does the same thing with more base range and uncounterable damage.

This aren't exactly comparable incidents. First, I don't think Riot hates Cho. I think they hate the general design of certain large campions and pursue overcautious and often ineffective balance as a result. Second, you can't just say "they have no clear favoritism to him" as a factual statement. By their own admission, favoritism for certain classes of champion is a factor in who receives changes and who doesn't. Third, Riot's balance (whether I like or dislike it) comes from extensive analysis and testing. Your opinions of Vayne don't (they can't. It's not something players have access to). Finally, I just exaggerate shit because I'm grumpy, not because I take it as fact. You'll note that I don't make numerical or balance claims in the same way I just shoot shit about Riot. Different context.

I used Cho'gath as an example and it was a crude one but i have been around this game for a long time (LOL in its earliest stages) and i have always watched pro games and studied different champs as i play and play them to learn them and understand them better.

That being Said Riot's balancing despite having all the statistics in the world has always been of poor quality. For example when Akali with Gunblade was a huge huge problem everyone wanted Akali nerfed because Gunblade was heavily used in most Kayle and Jax builds and it was a required item at the time to maximize the potential of these 2 champions. Instead of nerfing Akali Riot went ahead and nerfed gunblade but didn't compensate Jax and Kayle who then became almost unplayable at the time because of the Gunblade nerf. Then they decided to go ahead and nerf Akali anyways but left Jax and Kayle still near unplayable. They didn't do any balance changes to Jax or kayle for around 2 months and when they did it was a nerf to Jax and then they turned around and said "We fucked up we messed up with the Jax nerf" and then nerfed/buffed him and no one played him for awhile until they decided to revisit him again when the tanky top meta came around and he began to shine again as a highly offensive dps bruiser.

Balance changes like that are what most people on the forums complain about despite us not having the stats and data from behind the scenes the changes are stupid to put it lightly. For example when i look at the current Mordekaiser changes everytime i see them i always ask myself.

"What do they think they are solving here?"

I ask this because the changes literally solve nothing except slightly change Mordekaisers build to include a little more health but don't solve his problem of literally being ass and a thematical nightmare.

You are correct that thinking a champion needs a nerf doesn't mean you have to like or dislike her (I could also say that enjoying a champion doesn't guarantee that you can't take an objective eye towards their balance). However, there is certainly a relationship between hating a champion and thinking they need to be nerfed hard, and you certainly do want her nerfed, even though she seems to me to be in a slightly weak position. You hating her isn't a 100% thing, but if I had to bet, that's where I'd put my money.

Honestly yes its a nerf but no i don't want her nerfed because i hate her i want her W nerfed because it was designed around the Tanky bruiser meta which atm defensive items are kinda crap due to how well Last Whisper functions but even then it doesn't matter to Vayne because her W Counters any kind of defensive items you build to begin with because it has no inherent Counter. Percent Health true damage should never EVER have been a thing because by its very own nature it is uncounterable.

You don't have to keep trying to convince me that you don't hate Vayne. I'm not likely to believe you, and it isn't important. Your statements and arguments stand on their own, no matter your reason for making them. I'll believe you only if you can convince me that Vayne actually needs nerfs. So, let's talk about that instead.

My goal is not to convince you because honestly whether you are convinced or not is irrelevant what is relevant however is the fact that Percent health true damage should never have been a thing and now that it is and it was designed when massively tanky bruisers were running amok and in this day and age where Pure tanks are at their weakest and Most bruisers are taking their place because they bring excellent offense and great utility along with a good chunk of beefiness. Vayne's W needs to be rebalanced around this fact because in lane it acts as a spike of burst damage to squishies and rips apart bruisers and tanks alike no matter what either roles do Vayne's W is uncounterable by any item in the game.

Its not okay.

Sightless66Feb 18, 20151 votes

Pit the 2 champions against eacher with equally skilled players and i guarantee you Vayne will come out on top every time because of 2 factors.

In what scenario? You just seem to be talking about a later game 1v1, and that's an insufficient comparison because it's the one thing Vayne is designed for, while Sivir is designed for teamfighting. Why would I 1v1 a Vayne? I don't have to.

Sivir is picked in Pro plays not because of her Q damage or her ability to extend her auto's with W but because of her team Utility.

Yes, but something that could keep her from being picked would be if her low range crippled her. It doesn't, mainly because she has enough ability focused damage that she can contribute even when she isn't safe enough to autoattack a desirable target.

If they wanted Single target damage their Primary choices would be Vayne and Graves.

Except that Vayne isn't one of their choices. They'll take many other choices over her for the same role. She's seen minimal pro play. Vayne is a tertiary choice at best.

Vayne is not more prone to getting Zoned Doublelift has proven that on multiple occasions

What? No he hasn't. He has gotten zoned out of fights completely on her, quite a bit. It happens a lot when his team is behind. It doesn't completely destroy her, but she absolutely has this weakness. You keep bringing up the self-peel, but there are a lot of champions that just doesn't matter against. If I have a Syndra or Lissandra or Annie or anything like that anywhere near the frontline, I can keep Vayne out of the fight easily. That's a huge part of why pros are not playing her nowadays.

Also, how recently has Doublelift proved this? He hasn't played Vayne in pro play recently. Piglet is pretty much one of the only ones who touches her, and even then not often.

No Champion has a significant range weakness unless we are counting just low range as a weakness

I completely disagree. While low autoattack range is a weakness (one Kog is actually pretty unaffected by out of lane due to a reasonably high W uptime), range is also a funciton of the abilities champions have in their kit. Champions like Lucian and Kog have the ability to put out significant damage with their abilities even when they are getting zoned out of fights due to low autoattack range. Vayne has no such ability. If you get zoned, you do nothing.

Also, I still need the "What is Vayne's weakness" part of the question answered. That's pretty important.

That being Said Riot's balancing despite having all the statistics in the world has always been of poor quality.

I don't completely agree or disagree, but it's the topic of conversation here, so I'm not going to get into that more.

Percent Health true damage should never EVER have been a thing because by its very own nature it is uncounterable.

A specific damage source might be uncounterable, but the method with which the champion applies the damage is very easily countered, so I can't really say I think it is a problem. You can build armor against the large majority of her damage, you can build attack speed reductions and hurt her more than other carries that higher percentages of skill-based damage, and you can exploit the ability to counterplay her. I don't need to be able to specifically build against every single part of a kit to have a fair shot playing against a champion.

Vayne as a champion has plenty of counterplay. It's not hard for most teams to deal with her. So long as that is true, I don't really see her having this kind of damage as a problem. Being able to deal with a champion with my actions is much, much more important than dealing with them with my items, and items are still plenty effective against her because her physical damage is her highest source by a wide margin.

With all that said, I can see where you're coming from. I can see why it can be annoying. The thing is though, you can't just remove this. Vayne isn't in a position to be nerfed. She's not really that good right now. She needs something to make up for taking this kind of damage hit. She'd need more damage somewhere else to make up for it. What would you actually give her in return, and why would it be better for the game?

Vayne's W needs to be rebalanced around this fact because in lane it acts as a spike of burst damage to squishies

What is it supposed to do? It's her main source of damage in lane. Should it not hurt and just leave her completely unable to trade in lane?

Cain the EnablerFeb 18, 20152 votes

W now needs 4 auto attack to trigger. This might be a little too much though.

Maximum ZileanFeb 18, 20151 votes

At the moment, Vayne is in a pretty safe spot. But if she ever does become super powerful again, i'm sure they will change it.

Its a broken skill, but only when Vayne is actually considered a top tier pick.

PrinceOfStormsFeb 18, 20151 votes

IMO final hour should be reworked to work like Kha'zix's Void Assault, in that you only get stealth when you press it, instead of getting stealth whenever you Tumble.