I am convinced. Heimer's power relies solely on the idiocy of his enemy laner.

5G8Nri0B54·Feb 18, 2015·34 votes·3,417 views

Everytime I do well with Heimer, it's almost always because the enemy jumps into me right in the middle of my triforce of turrets as I blow my Zhonya's.

Everytime I do poorly, it's because my opponents uses their head and destroy my easily killed turrets with an ability that can one-shot them.

I really love the concept of Heimerdinger and that Ultimate of his. But sometimes it just feels like...you're either unstoppable or you're just a 5th wheel. All enemies sashay wildly between completely under-estimating my turrets and getting killed, to totally over-estimating my turrets and miss their chance to easily killing me.

58 Comments

BottleCapsterFeb 18, 201521 votes

Heimer is a strange champion and quite honestly one of my favorite mages in the game due to how unique his particular playstyle is. Heimer's nest is the taunt personified, daring you to kill him and forcing you to size up your damage and the risk of diving him, but this fact does not mean that Heimer himself does not require skill or strategy to be successful with.

Quite simply, Heimer is a champion who mingles with death to the point of absurdity, matched only by Soraka and Karma, Heimer relies on prolonging fights as much as he can to get his damage off and kill his targets, whilst having a few options in case his opponents are too risk-averse. while many people hate him due to his strengths, many people who understand him know where his weaknesses are and how to exploit them. As mentioned before Heimer's turrets themselves are cripplingly at risk to Aoe damage and are damn near impossible to keep mounted in the late-game, but these problems are only part of his weakness, whereas the most substantial part comes from the way he deals damage as a whole.

Think back if you will a common occurrence that most of us have had at one point or another, the botched tower dive; in which you and an ally try to dive an enemy only for them to skirt death just long enough for the tower to turn the tides, This is heimer in a nutshell. To stay alive heimer must buy as much time as possible for his turrets to seal the deal, and to that end, just like Soraka he prefers long drawn out battles rather than short decisive ones. The longer he has you in his zone of influence the more likely he is to win, and the greater your chances of dying are. Heimer must be patient, calm, and on-point to maximize his time, especially pre-zhonya's, and its really in these areas that too many people are unfortunately forgiving of the inventor. Most mages in the game have ways of handling him, whether by destroying his turrets Ziggs , displacing them Syndra , outranging him or straight up killing him before he has a chance to turn the tides Lux . Heimer is a test of trading knowledge and calculated risks. If you go after him you need a plan, because the longer it takes to kill him, the likelier it is you'll die instead.

SecretAgentHulkFeb 18, 20152 votes

You mention how easy it is to kill his turrets; I wonder how much stronger they would be if Riot turned them into structures a la the recent Zz'rot Portal change.

Kitten of EvilFeb 18, 20153 votes

He's actually a pretty solid top-laner too. Ranged is always nice, and he's hard to gank precisely because of his death-nest of turrets and, if that fails, his E. I probably see him top more often than mid, honestly.

junglerboy16Feb 18, 20153 votes

Top Heimer is one of my favorite roles, and he can shut down melees along with several of the anti-melee AP bruisers that are popular up there right now. If you take ghost, you can kite through your turrets for longer than anyone normally expects, and I usually end up getting a double kill the first time I get ganked each game.

Kitten of EvilFeb 18, 20151 votes

I'll have to try that next time I take him top!

Still, that kind of proves the OP's point. He relies on your enemies (the ganker and the top-laner) being dumb enough to chase through turrets

GigglingAngelFeb 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ashe cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hwR1Hsiz,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-02-18T13:30:29.058+0000)

Heimer is a strange champion and quite honestly one of my favorite mages in the game due to how unique his particular playstyle is. Heimer's nest is the taunt personified, daring you to kill him and forcing you to size up your damage and the risk of diving him, but this fact does not mean that Heimer himself does not require skill or strategy to be successful with.

Quite simply, Heimer is a champion who mingles with death to the point of absurdity, matched only by Soraka and Karma, Heimer relies on prolonging fights as much as he can to get his damage off and kill his targets, whilst having a few options in case his opponents are too risk-averse. while many people hate him due to his strengths, many people who understand him know where his weaknesses are and how to exploit them. As mentioned before Heimer's turrets themselves are cripplingly at risk to Aoe damage and are damn near impossible to keep mounted in the late-game, but these problems are only part of his weakness, whereas the most substantial part comes from the way he deals damage as a whole.

Think back if you will a common occurrence that most of us have had at one point or another, the botched tower dive; in which you and an ally try to dive an enemy only for them to skirt death just long enough for the tower to turn the tides, This is heimer in a nutshell. To stay alive heimer must buy as much time as possible for his turrets to seal the deal, and to that end, just like Soraka he prefers long drawn out battles rather than short decisive ones. The longer he has you in his zone of influence the more likely he is to win, and the greater your chances of dying are. Heimer must be patient, calm, and on-point to maximize his time, especially pre-zhonya's, and its really in these areas that too many people are unfortunately forgiving of the inventor. Most mages in the game have ways of handling him, whether by destroying his turrets , displacing them , outranging him or straight up killing him before he has a chance to turn the tides . Heimer is a test of trading knowledge and calculated risks. If you go after him you need a plan, because the longer it takes to kill him, the likelier it is you'll die instead.

Well said!

RogueWillFeb 19, 20151 votes

I just get a assassin and plain ignore him and roam. Honestly after mid game is pretty much impossible to kill him unless you have an ability to one hit his turrets. And if you dive him he can stun you and then zhonyas and chomp half your hp; he only needs his rockets to poke so the granade is most likely up all the time.

Sir BulldogFeb 19, 20151 votes

Very good explanation. Best I have heard of him yet.

Grouchy PoroFeb 18, 201514 votes

That is kinda Heimer's whole deal. You need to out smart them, and I think it's funny thematically.

'I'd prefer a battle of wits, but you're unarmed' Heimerdinger

Leti the YetiFeb 18, 201511 votes

Singed

ABlueQuakerFeb 18, 20151 votes

But Singed can manipulate both a) the position of his poison AND b) the position of enemies relative to his poison.

Heimerdinger, on the other hand, truly relies on enemies to position themselves in range of his Turrets. The thought process when laning as Heimerdinger is literally: "can my turrets actually deny my opponent minions? Or will they just kill them? Should I just max W instead?". And the thought process when laning against Heimerdinger is literally: "Can I cs without his turrets hitting me? Can I kill his turrets? Can I ignore his turrets?".

EzraTwitchFeb 18, 201510 votes

Honestly, its because his turrets still take to much damage from AoE and can be oneshot by most AD's late game. They need to be structured more like Zyra's plants in terms of how they take damage.

eyes wide shutFeb 18, 20158 votes

raise your what?

SpecterVonBarenFeb 18, 20152 votes

...... SO THAT'S WHAT THAT LINE IS ABOUT!

VahlenFeb 18, 20156 votes

Heimer did well for a couple weeks when his turrets were decent. Then he was used once in the LCS and promptly obliterated.

DanofDemaciaFeb 18, 20155 votes

I hate dinger with a passion he is impossible to lane against unless your Annie. Even lux has a hard time. Like lux's e's will never never one shot his turrets And you know what's worse is when the dinger just keeps buying health pots to shrug off all poke damage.

BorblandFeb 18, 20154 votes

Even against smart players Heimer can be a pain in the ass. He can def very efficently.

But he get nearly no kill potential vs them in lane.

MathbalnaseFeb 18, 20152 votes

{quoted} But he get nearly no kill potential vs them in lane.

And even less in teamfights, while being too slow and immobile to split-push.

BorblandFeb 19, 20151 votes

In teamfights he has a fantastic kill potential. He has a stun, a nuke, and a zoning tool. He can engage with a proper grenade ult, or counternegage with Ult Q and Zhonya.

Don't underestimate him.

MathbalnaseFeb 19, 20151 votes

His stun and his nuke both have excessively long CDs given their various limitations. His stun is incredibly difficult to land against any enemy that's half-way decent unless one of your allies lands some of their own hard CC first. His nuke is either easily dodgeable (if focused on a single target) or pitifully damaging (if spread out to ensure a hit) given its cost and CD.

His ult, while powerful, consumes not only its own substantial CD, but also that of whichever of his regular abilities that it emulates. This is not terribly problematic in the case of Ult-Q, since it provides the 'ammunition' Q itself has an incredibly short CD outside of that ammunition generation, but is much more noticeable for W and E.

Any AP-focused champ can have a Zhonya, so it's not really relevant, here.

The vast majority of his damage (and thus 'kill potential', as opposed to 'assist potential') comes from his turrets. Which, in teamfights against competent opponents, are either quickly dispatched or simply skirted around. They are stationary, relatively squishy, and can only be placed at short range.

His strongest source of 'kill potential' in skilled hands against intelligent opponents is probably his Ult-W, but that has even more of the same problems as his normal W: the more effect he tries to get out of it, the less likely he is to get that effect. Unless one of his allies is kind enough to keep them locked down for him, of course.

BorblandFeb 20, 20151 votes

Boy, I know what I'm talking about, I play Heimer farily often.

His teamfight presence is great, he zone, harras, and his cooldowns aren't that long.

His Tower Q + ult deal immense damage in teamfights, and E + ult is a fantastic engage with tons of damage. Have you already tried t before ? Doesn't seems so here. Also, he can do fine without Zhonya.

Enemy team isn't going to focus the turrets in a teamfight when they're getting engaged, and retreating can be very punishing for them, they mostly lose 1-2 people for the next fight.

Don't underestimate Heimer's teamfight presence, yes he's a great mistake punisher, but is still very strong even vs smart enemies

MathbalnaseFeb 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Boy, I know what I'm talking about, I play Heimer farily often.

Chances are quite low that you're actually old enough to call me 'boy', kidlet.

His teamfight presence is great, he zone, harras, and his cooldowns aren't that long.

He zones people that don't know how to poke down his turrets faster than they generate. He harasses people who can't dodge for shit. His cooldowns aren't long unless you compare them to abilities that are similarly restricted from their optimal effects.

His Tower Q + ult deal immense damage in teamfights, and E + ult is a fantastic engage with tons of damage. Have you already tried t before ? Doesn't seems so here. Also, he can do fine without Zhonya.

His Ult-Q can deal immense damage in teamfights...if the enemy lets it (a well-placed smite does wonders to end it quickly). Ult-E is a fantastic engage with tons of damage...against enemies who suck at dodging. Which is only getting easier with all of these mobile-as-fuck champs that keep coming out.

Enemy team isn't going to focus the turrets in a teamfight when they're getting engaged, and retreating can be very punishing for them, they mostly lose 1-2 people for the next fight.

Smart enemies engage a nest before the fight starts, or force heim's team to fight where there is no established nest (and then punish heim for trying to stand close enough to the action to lay down an effective new nest). Basic turrets go down in 1, or at most 2 hits even by midgame unless heim is ridiculously fed and leveled relative to his opponents. His ult-turret goes down in 1 smite + 1-2 hits from mid-late game.

Don't underestimate Heimer's teamfight presence, yes he's a great mistake punisher, but is still very strong even vs smart enemies

Don't underestimate Heim's anything when he's playing against idiots.

Don't overestimate Heim's anything when he's playing against the competent.

ThePlasticSporkFeb 18, 20154 votes

Heimer is weak because if he's strong he utterly shits on certain champions (most prominently tanky melee types) with basically 0 chance of said champion ever getting to do anything to him.

His play pattern inherently lends itself to a binary nature.

Kitten of EvilFeb 18, 20153 votes

Heimerdinger "You can learn so much from failure!"

Final Raid BossFeb 18, 20153 votes

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ raise your dongers. ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ

the one problem i have with heimer is that when someone realizes how weak your turrets are you stand no chance, it's a simple way to counter him but it's too effective and easy imo. they need more durability, like zyra's plants. or at the very least allow us to stack up to 4 turrets to make up for how squishy they are

MathbalnaseFeb 18, 20151 votes

IMO, turrets need to scale their defenses with Heim's own (probably Bonus) defenses. (and then drop the health scaling from AP, because that's stupid)

Make Tankerdinger viable please, Riot.

KaisadiIIaFeb 19, 20151 votes

So you want to destroy AP Heimer in order to have a fun tank build?

MathbalnaseFeb 19, 20151 votes

Even AP heim commonly builds at least some defenses (ZH, anyone?).

Edited to add: Turret AP health ratio currently caps out at 40% Common Heim builds rarely exceed 500 AP by the time a game is thoroughly decided, and a full build Heim might expect to have just a little over 600AP if building more-or-less glass cannon. At 500AP and lvl18, Heim's turrets gain 200 bonus HP. Rylai's Crystal Scepter (a 'recommended' defensive choice for Heim everywhere except the Twisted Treeline) alone provides 400 bonus HP to Heim. Just how low do you think a BonusHP to TurretHP ratio would likely be?

DivewingFeb 18, 20152 votes

Heimers kit is just really great at shutting down everything in lane phase, you cant kill him easily, but he cant kill you without you trying to kill him either (most of the time). It moves past counterplay into the no play at all region xD.

Drunk RummateFeb 18, 20152 votes

He offers more than that, a big aspect of playing Heimer is zone control. He's great in siege comps that like to put poke damage on turrets.

DeathToHereticsFeb 18, 20152 votes

I got pushed to middle in draft once, and picked him into LeBlanc. Oh my god that was so fun. She couldn't dive me without getting stunned, and when their Xin Zhao tried to dive me with her I would almost get a double.

TanadrisFeb 18, 20152 votes

I rarely lose with Heimer in lane. My secret? Run Exhaust.

If you get the setup in lane before laning phase begins, and set up turrets early, you most often have a lead in lane no matter what because your enemy has to expend mana or lose hp in order to take out the turrets.

My most recent game with the donger drew pressure from top and bot, leading me into 3v1/2v1 scenarios, but drawing pressure from other lanes is part of being Heimer as much as managing Turret location is. Even if you do die, its almost guaranteed to come with a kill if you run exhaust in the killbox of turrets you set.

I agree with you that there is an off chance that you can fall behind if people manage against you well, but in most situations, Heimer always has an advantage. Just gotta be smart about turret locations and when to stand in a bush for 45 seconds ;].

Tis a nice dayFeb 19, 20151 votes

Heimer's indeed one of those non-support champions where exhaust is almost core on him.

Yuumi or LoseFeb 18, 20152 votes

Here's the sad truth.

Heimer is not good in competitive play because he is easily countered and everyone knows how to play against him.

Here's an example. If you pick Heimer and the enemy picked a different champion and both of you have the same skill level set to a high competitive player, the enemy player will always win because of Heimers kit.

He is only good in Howling Abyss 1v1. In Summoners, he is outclassed. He is only good in 1v1 laning phase and then outside of it, he doesn't contribute at all because his kit is so badly designed.

A lot of people will bring up his winrate (Winrate is a poor excuse for an argument because of so many factors but I'll use it anyway) and say that Heimer is above 50%. His popularity though is so low. Meaning the guys that played Heimer at high elo struggled to win those games when they could have had an easier time winning with a different champion, or got carried and won anyway, etc.

Heimer needs buffs. The people at Silver, Gold, and Platinum can go ahead and complain he's OP but people at Diamond that know and even main Heimer will tell you the truth that Heimer needs buff if he ever wants to see competitive play.

straight4freeFeb 18, 20152 votes

Heimer has a high win-rate at high levels of play, which makes me doubt this.

WhereTheNamesAtFeb 19, 20152 votes

Its probably because well placed donger turrets can make sieges against them near impossible because he would be a able to destroy the wave before they even reach the turret.

PryotraFeb 19, 20152 votes

If this is how you see heimer, then you need to ask yourself, "How do I adapt to people auto farming my turrets?"

Depending on the enemy laner, this can mean I max w instead and use the turrets to bait them into trying to clear it, and follow up with rockets. Painful every time, and if they continue being predictable, you can extract an HP toll for farming the turrets.

I personally don't mind sitting near my tower and trading my turret for a chunk of the enemy laner's HP. And If they ever stop, then they fall back into the "you didn't clear my turrets trolololol" trap.

Honestly, I just don't have this issue with people 1 shotting my turrets. Probably because I am very conservative early game and just try to last hit+and harass unless they ignore my turrets, in which case I claim the lane as mine. If they do focus on my turrets, I keep placing them so they have to choose between last hitting a minion or farming my turret, as this causes them to actually lose gold if they choose turret right away. And if they last hit first, at least my turret has a lazar to respond. On first back, I buy lots of AP, and have alot of AP in my runes+mastery. This increases the turrets lifespan significantly, so it seems to be the best option.

Heimer is the RTS champion of league, or the Chess Master of league. He is more about positioning of his units to secure victory, for sure, but also accounting for how the enemy reacts to said units. As a result, every unit must be placed wisely, and Heimer must think 2 steps ahead of his opponents. If the Heimer player can master this, he can dong against straight counters and still do well.

JevelFaithfulFeb 18, 20151 votes

Yeah, I was under the impression that, in lane, heimer should theorically never get any kills. His game looks like one of pushing and counterpushing. With him possibly completely zoning his opponent. Unless there's a mistake or a jungler passing by.

PartholonianFeb 19, 20151 votes

Theoretically, nobody should ever get a 1v1 kill. Because the person who would lose the all in should realize it and avoid it (even if they get zoned pretty bad, that's still almost always less bad than dying).

Practically, it doesn't work that way. And that's no less true for Heimer than anyone else. There will be a lot of dives that Heimer can stop with a perfectly placed E to the face, but that will kill him if he whiffs it.

JevelFaithfulFeb 20, 20151 votes

Technically True. What I meant was that heimer really doesn't seem to have the kit to go offensive and take a kill. He has to either push and force the oponent to try to get him or capitalize on a wrong engage.

I guess in a little less theorical sense, you can expect people to make small/subtle mistakes (come a little too close and eat a poke, loosing money to missed cs, set themselves to free ganks), but win whenever they go for a prepared kill. That was the kind of assumption I was thinking about.

IN that scenario, heimer doesn't get that much tools to go for a kill. He has some poke with missiles, but he's rarely (if ever?) going to have the tools to rush you down after that poke. You have to go deep in his turret zone. In that scenario, noone would purposefully go deep in the turrets, they might just eat a few hits here and there.

Practically, you're right that people will make mistakes I mentionned and will make lost engage.

Tin TarantinoFeb 18, 20151 votes

I usually max W first and missile them right to the face when they are busy focusing on the turrets, I pretty much just use Q to bait them. last game I went something like 27/6, the W chunks for quite a bit and the turrets create a good zone to poke from.

RyvakuFeb 19, 20151 votes

I agree with you 100%

As a Heim player they always believe I'm squishy they could delete me and dive me. I throw my stun, pop my ult turrent, and free in zhonyas, then watch if they stay to kill me or scurry away for dear life. It's always both because they come back and try. xD

Nucleophilic atkFeb 19, 20151 votes

I don't think his turrets are that weak lol.

AudiomancyFeb 19, 20151 votes

I do wish they would give him a new passive, however. Azir's turret creation for example would've been perfect for him.

Sinister AnubisFeb 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Everytime I do well with Heimer, it's almost always because the enemy jumps into me right in the middle of my triforce of turrets as I blow my Zhonya's.

Everytime I do poorly, it's because my opponents uses their head and destroy my easily killed turrets with an ability that can one-shot them.

I really love the concept of Heimerdinger and that Ultimate of his. But sometimes it just feels like...you're either unstoppable or you're just a 5th wheel. All enemies sashay wildly between completely under-estimating my turrets and getting killed, to totally over-estimating my turrets and miss their chance to easily killing me.

Thats himers job you want play makes go play annie

5G8Nri0B54Feb 19, 20151 votes

If...by plays you mean farm till level 6, and then Flash+Tibbers to instantly burst them down. Rinse and repeat the rest of the game.

Sinister AnubisFeb 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If...by plays you mean farm till level 6, and then Flash+Tibbers to instantly burst them down. Rinse and repeat the rest of the game.

When you get down to it every champion has a rotation, just because you layed hers out doesn't mean its not as any less efftive as someone else's. Dont make it so complicated.

5G8Nri0B54Feb 19, 20151 votes

Except Annie is universally agreed to be the poster-child of a binary play pattern. She has one trick and that's all she does.

There's no building her differently to get different results. There's no choice to choose different skill orders to get a different outcome. There's no different play style.

Sinister AnubisFeb 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Except Annie is universally agreed to be the poster-child of a binary play pattern. She has one trick and that's all she does.

There's no building her differently to get different results. There's no choice to choose different skill orders to get a different outcome. There's no different play style.

but there is tank annie is a thing. You still have high base damage and you can do the same thing from a tank perspective. But besides that annie is still a great champion just because you think she has stale play style but its reliable and tangible.