So can Recurve Bow get the Cloth->Chainmail treatment too? Make it build off Dagger?

5G8Nri0B54·Dec 10, 2014·59 votes·2,833 views

The Recurve Bow is, and was, easily the most unnattractive item in the entire game. I don't even know why Riot left the item around for this long. Many of the items it builds into are rarely built, and it's thanks in part due to their less than attractive build paths thanks to the Recurve Bow.

So what if the item was a little smoother to build? Or outright removed and have all item recipes cost 2 daggers (granted that would mean Runaan's would require 4 Daggers to make...but let's not kid ourself about the item, it's always the suboptimal choice outside of like 2 champions)

26 Comments

The5lackerDec 10, 20145 votes

I hate the precedent set by the Cloth Armor > Chain Vest change. In addition to being unnecessary, I'm surprised the forum isn't already filled with dozens of threads going "WHY CAN'T LONGSWORD BUILD INTO BF SWORD!?"

Sailor MintDec 10, 201423 votes

It's not a precedent. It only applies to armor and MR items.

Building offensive items is not much of a choice. Different core items have different timings/power spikes and abusable weaknesses, that is something intended.

Defensive items are generally a reactionary thing. You build them out of necessity because you need them to survive. If you couldn't survive against a 1-0 Riven, your only option was buying an extra Cloth Armor that didn't build into anything. You can't expect someone who can't stay in lane to farm an extra 420g.

tl;dr: The change to defensive items is an anti-snowballing mechanism, nothing more, nothing less.

AdrenalotrDec 11, 20141 votes

As it only applies to defensive items, it makes sense. i just don't get why it doesn't apply to health too.

I could see it be split so that cheaper, very cost-effective items that benefit a team that's behind more than a team that's ahead could get this treatment, of building out of a series of items, while the team ahead looking for the big items would need to wait for bigger money thresholds. That's kind of how it is, Im just not sure it's consistently so. It works well with the BFS and NLG for the big offensive items. I'm just not sure it's where I'd want it to be when it comes to pickaxes and giant's belts.

ProfDrDeathDec 11, 20141 votes

Because health, unlike resistances, is a generally useful defensive stat. Resistances are reactionary and more situationally useful.

The5lackerDec 11, 20142 votes

Then the solution is to make the hard-counter items build out of Cloth/Mantle and have the more general-purpose, high power items build out of Chain/Cloak.

Kinda like how now (and a while ago) Randuin's Omen builds out of Cloth and Sunfire builds out of Cape: Both are strong, end-game Armor/Health items, but the one designed to counter builds out of the cheaper components, while the one with a more general power level builds out of the more expensive component. A way smarter precedent than having easy to assemble expensive component that serve absolutely no purpose.

OsocolddDec 10, 20141 votes

I was soo just thinking that! Upvote for you sir (or ma'aam idk your gender, but love your genius. )

CoolKnightSTDec 10, 20145 votes

item 3101 already get build out 2x item 1042 . Their no reason to duplicate it again. Just let item 1043 be build out 1x . But overal this wouldn't solve the problem entire. Almost every asp item has Dagger requirement as direct build requirement.

Build item 1042 into item 1043 would already be verry helpfull. So whe will get things like:

= +
= + +
= +

What they also could do is build more asp options like:

And further expand the asp options.

The last option is increasing the asp from item 1043 to 50% but that doesn't feels like a good idea with the current asp items that are available.

junglerboy16Dec 10, 20145 votes

Recurve bow is totally redundant in this game right now. For ALL other items that have tiers (armor, mr, AD, AP etc.), going higher up the tier increases the gold efficiency. The thing that makes Recurve bow so unappealing is the fact that it cost exactly as much and give exactly the same stats as buying two daggers. If it worked like a BF sword where it is MORE efficient than just buying a dagger, then this change might be worth considering. The reason it has to be more efficient than a lower tier item is that it has to reward you in some small way for waiting it out and buying the bigger item. If you spend all your gold on item 1036 s, buy the time you get 50 AD, you will have spent more than buying a single item 1038 . With ASP, buying 4 item 1042 s is MORE rewarding than buying 2 item 1043 s, because you increase your stats ever 450 gold instead of every 900 gold, and since they cost the same for the stats, there is literally NO reason to ever build except for the fact that older recipes still use it at all.

PyroDec 10, 20143 votes

The items that Recurve Bow builds into are the real problem. Not the Bow itself.

Wit's End has already proven to be problematic on jungle Warwick/TF while not really feeling that good on the likes of Udyr, Irelia and Shyvana.

Runaan's Hurricane tries to fill a niche that doesn't exist.

Sword of the Divine...oh wait.

Sir ArmaMalumDec 10, 20142 votes

There's an inherent danger to this line of thought. Smoothing out the build path seems logical, yes, but when you think about it what does that mean for the choices the player makes in their itemization. Or, in other words, when wouldn't you build dagger in your example? Eliminating variance also takes away from player choice, in this case it takes away the choice of getting dagger or saving up for bow. Granted that's not the best example as bow isn't too popular, but it stands as a precedent for offensive items.

Now, the reason (my educated guess at least) that Riot did this exact thing with armor/mr is simply because they're defensive. The choice of "wait & save" versus "get the early mitigation now" was usually the latter not for item choice but because if they went with the former they would get even more shut down. At this point the player choice is already limited but not due to the item but by a core game mechanic, if that makes sense.

OsocolddDec 10, 20142 votes

It'd be nice if recurve bow received an added bonus stat that most things that bolster as do not have, like lifesteal , Magicpent or armorpent. THEN it would be more well rounded or even if it had a cc attached.

Baron PerenoldeDec 10, 20142 votes

They should make this change for sure, as well as add some other small effect to it as well (example: Stinger, with its attack speed and small CDR).

Baron Von BanginDec 10, 20141 votes

Should just lower Recurve's price.

CerbearusDec 10, 20141 votes

Should make item 1043 build into something that isn't completely useless... I understand Wit's End is good on a few people right now but as soon at the Devourer nerf and WW nerfs go through nobody will ever see it again.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 10, 20141 votes

The issue with the item I guess is that it gives a stat that isn't all that desired at the point when you buy it.

Dagger you can put up with because it's cheap and builds into boots and other much better items. Zeal costs a bit more, but provides so many different stats and also builds into something nice too.

Recurve Bow occupies a really awkward middle ground where it's a little too pricey to brush off, at the same time while it's cost efficient, it's not all that great either. AS is a much more valuable stat much later on in the game. It's a much more valuable stat when you actually FINISHED building those items (Wit's End's passive benefitting from the AS, etc.)

Ariel the CruelDec 10, 20141 votes

AP Varus will probably still use it. Though it's rare to see any varus, these days. As fast as non-mobile champs get blown up.

IndyBoyDec 10, 20141 votes

Kayle actually likes item 3085 That is legitimately one of the most fun things in the game and I really hope they never remove that item haha. Just for the fun factor.

A Bad AhriDec 10, 20141 votes

So in other words...

item 3085 = item 1042

But one item 1042 builds into a item 1043

SookoDec 10, 20141 votes

item 1011 gets nothing too :c

DUDE BRODec 10, 20141 votes

Power should come with power spikes. If you want big items, you need to hold off until you get them.

Defense however should not. You shouldn't have to keep feeding them kills because you can't manage to make $720 for magic resist.

BloodDelmarDec 10, 20141 votes

you can't build a bow from a knife....

EnvyDragonDec 10, 20145 votes

You can't build a bow from a pickaxe and sword either, but you don't see Last Whisper getting any complaints.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 11, 20146 votes

but you can create a gun from two books

windwolf777Dec 11, 20141 votes

You can at least use the knife for the arrowhead.

the Anarchit3chtDec 11, 20141 votes

Good luck building a bow with no instrument to shape it with.

QuephaDec 11, 20141 votes

i don't understand why it's even still in the game. it's only used for two items now and they're both jokes. wit's end would be interesting if bork (and devourer on junglers) didn't obsolete it on almost every champion that wants it.