Kha'Zix and his Q

Blue Collar Bear·May 5, 2015·2 votes·982 views

It baffles me why Kha'Zix does not proc on-hit effects on his Q. Instead, it procs spell effects (such as Rylai's, spell vamp). From a design stand point, I cannot understand why it is a single target spell and not a modified auto attack. If the ability was allowed to apply on-hit effects, it would open a lot of variability in builds and feel like a more clear design.

If someone could enlighten me as to why it's a single target spell instead of a modified auto attack, I would appreciate it. My guess is there's a mechanic in the game that requires it to be a single target spell, which I am ignorant of.

15 Comments

LikeMyBirdMay 5, 20152 votes

It would just be kinda broken. The isolation is for this spell and not basic attack. All kha would build item 3078 and critical chance will make it op

Blue Collar BearMay 5, 20151 votes

So, it's purely so he can have the isolation mechanic? I'm not sure why it can't be a modified auto attack and keep the isolation mechanic. The balancing team has plenty of levers to use to balance the ability. I'm sure that it would be possible to lower scalings and base damages. I don't think it would be a good idea to nerf the isolation damage, since it's what really makes him unique and encourages his play style.

KougaMay 5, 20153 votes

Its easy to knee-jerk and say, Hey this would be cool, but there is a lot more to consider there.

If it WAS an Auto-Attack Modifier

It would reset his AA timer, which other Champs often use to slightly bump up their overall DPS through additional AAs as well as the damage from proc'd items such as BotRK and Hydras.
It would nerf the range of his Q. His Q is not melee range; its actually 325 (375 when evolved). So this would reduce his effective range, which also makes it harder for him to get that Isolated hit
It would be susceptible to Blinds (not that there are very many atm), currently he can still Q Teemo/Quinn while Blinded because it is an ability and not an AA.
Khaz's sustain is based around his W, but this would give him another way of gaining Lifesteal by adding damage to an empowered auto attack, so his heal might need to be tweaked.
On hit items would become (at least slightly) more powerful on him and more desired as a build path. This may or may not be a good thing.
It would also proc his Passive damage on his Q. Between the on hit items and his passive it would front load his burst directly onto his Q, where now he combines his Q and then proc's items and passive with an Auto Attack.

Not saying these would be good or bad for him overall, just pointing out there are a lot of things to consider even with a seemingly small change.

Blue Collar BearMay 5, 20151 votes

I personally think that none of these are a bad thing, and it should be looked into. However, I'm not an avid Kha'Zix player. I've only played a few games.

My biggest complaint is that I have trouble justifying a lot of items on Kha'Zix. It feels like he only has one build that is optimal. Perhaps, there is a possibility of tuning it to work better with items without unbalancing his kit?

djjomonMay 5, 20152 votes

From what I'm reading here, from people who know more about this than I do, it looks like Kha'Zix's identity is an AD Mage. Not quite a bruiser, not an auto attacking assassin. A melee mage. Relies on spells and spell damage, with less emphasis on AA weaving.

I guess the other way would make him too similar to champions like Wukong, Rengar, and Talon (as mentioned).

I've thought it myself, and wondered what to build over Hydra. But nothing seems worth it as a first item.

Blue Collar BearMay 5, 20151 votes

The word you're looking for is AD caster! Champions such as Pantheon, Lee Sin, and Garen all fall into this category.

I personally hate building Hydra on him, because his identity is an assassin that preys on single targets. The only reason to buy Hydra on him is an extra spell in your arsenal with a 1.0 AD ratio, since the AOE is wasted on assassinating single targets. For this reason, I've always thought that BOTRK would be much better on him.

djjomonMay 5, 20151 votes

I actually chose the word "mage" over "caster" intentionally. Since a lot of AD casters still have AA enhancements/interactions. Riot, when "redefining" champion types, actually said that by definition Pantheon is a mage, due to reliance on spells for damage. But he's of course not classified as one, because that would make him seem to be AP. But going off of this, I used the term mage. (You understood my point though, so all good).

The problem with Kha is, and always has been, his game impact. When he's good, he's a regular pick/ban in multiple roles. When he's weak, you get what we have now. Riot has been trying to make him viable, but not OP, for a long, long time. They want him to be versatile, but unique. An assassin, but not freelo. Not to mention his various, also unique, mechanics.

He has the Lee Sin and Thresh problem. Not always OP, but hard to balance due to just doing too much in one kit.

Blue Collar BearMay 5, 20151 votes

By that definition, I agree that mage is a much better term.

In my opinion, I think that changing his Q to interact with items better would make him much better. I know there are plenty of spells in the game that interact with items without applying crit / life steal. It would open a bit more variation in his builds and make him a more versatile champion. What else would bring him back into play?

djjomonMay 5, 20151 votes

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By that definition, I agree that mage is a much better term.

In my opinion, I think that changing his Q to interact with items better would make him much better. I know there are plenty of spells in the game that interact with items without applying crit / life steal. It would open a bit more variation in his builds and make him a more versatile champion. What else would bring him back into play?

Knowing Kha'Zix trends, just about anything will bring him back. I wouldn't completely be surprised if the new Cleaver brings him back, at least for a few high level games. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if BC doesn't affect him at all.

But really, any meaningful buff could bring Kha'Zix back. If not during the tank meta, once we're past it. As for a specific buff, I'm not familiar enough with him to offer something.

Maybe when we get a new Brutalizer item, that'll be enough? Who knows

Blue Collar BearMay 6, 20151 votes

I don't think it's a great idea to balance a champion around items, as we've seen with DFG. It hurts too many functions of the game and makes the game overall unhealthy.

I agree that any meaningful buff would bring him back, but I wouldn't say he's in a bad place. He's enjoyable to play, and he feels circumstantially strong. I just want a meaningful reason to play him over another assassin. With that being said, I think the sun has set on this part of our conversation.

Got any ideas for a new item for the 1337 stick?

djjomonMay 6, 20151 votes

It's not a good idea to balance champs around items, you're right. But sometimes it has to be done, at least in the short run. Especially since item changes can change a champ from useless to OP.

As for any ideas... I don't really have any of my own. But I've seen several requests for it worked into a new Grievous Wounds item. I like that idea.

I guess if I had to come up with something, it would be... Probably something simple. Brutalizer + Longsword/Pickaxe + extra gold. Where each auto attack/physical attack gives it a stack for more AD in fights. Kinda like how item 3181 stacks or something. No stacking ArPen, no Life Steal, just a little more AD (like 2-3 stacks that wear off quickly). Retains Brutalizer's unique Arpen or whatever. Probably a terrible idea, I just took the opportunity to come up with something useful off the top of my head.

Blue Collar BearMay 6, 20151 votes

Short run fixes, it works! Tweaking an item is a lot easier than tweaking a champion, I think.

I'm not sure how I feel about the new Grievous Wounds item being made into a Brutalizer item. It would become a core item on any physical damage assassin, just as Morellonomicon is considered core on a lot of AP mages / assassins. This is the opposite of what it should be, which is a niche item to combat hyper sustain champions (Aatrox, Mundo, Trundle).

I loooooove the idea of stacking mechanics. I proposed a rework for Devourer and Wit's End that would make it more akin to the stacking of a Seeker's Armguard. I think your idea has merit and should be explored.

djjomonMay 6, 20151 votes

For an idea I derped out without much thought, I'll take it. Thanks!

I see what you mean by the new Brut item becoming too core on too many champs. But I guess I'd take that over it being near-useless, like Executioner's Calling was. Even when it was needed most, it was rarely used. If Riot could find a middle ground in balancing it, that would be great. Though one Rioter liked the idea of Brut + Grievous Wounds, so who knows?

Back to the main topic, a stacking item like I mentioned would likely make Kha viable again, especially with Grievous Wounds on it. As long it wasn't a SotO type stacking mechanic. More like Armguard or Sanguin Blade, like we said.

And truth be told, it might not even break the tank meta either, if balanced properly. Just open up a few more options. Maokai would be more easily laned against, while Sion would shrug off the healing reduction, to name 2. But it's more realistic that the item would get too strong at some point, and probably push tanks out...

Epilogue of LifeMay 5, 20151 votes

He'll be a Talon 2.0, complete with multiple stealths and a resetting jump and innate healing...

ZileanDid911May 6, 20151 votes

When evolved and with warrior enchant and hydra and LW it deals around 1000 damage to isolated targets with a low cd. If you buy an infinity edge then if you crit with it then it will deal 2500 damage to isolated targets every few seconds. Right now he can kill an adc in 2-3 Q. With this he would have no problem 1 hitting them and almost everyone in the enemy team. And with a Hydra and BT's 32% life steal every critting Q would heal 800 hp. And that's just the damage part. This combined with the cd reset on evolved E and the slow on W and the invisiblity of his R it would be broken. Imagine jumping in 1 hitting the adc and just jump on the next target 1 hitting him too and make a pentakill in a few seconds. And if they decide to stick together to prevent isolation they will make a perfect target for Wukong/Malphite/Amumu/Orianna and any other AOE hard cc.