Hybrid runes are useless with the new Lethality

MorgManBasher·Dec 29, 2016·66 votes·4,820 views

So I been thinking and realize that Hybrid marks in runes are actually quite pointless and useless to run now on mages. I use to run hybird reds on most of my mages for the early game auto's in lane between spells and for the champions that had mixed damage such as Sion. Now that it takes time for lethality to scale, the early game power of the hybrid runes is pretty much non-existant and there really is no reason to go them anymore. You are better off running flat magic pen and on most hybrid champions like Kayle you are better off just running attack speed reds.

Like, I can't see a reason to go them except maybe for akali? Wouldn't help with your early game but would scale I guess?

35 Comments

ChaoticPineconeDec 29, 201623 votes

Lets do some math because I'm curious:

Old Hybrid pen marks gave .9 Armor pen. New gives 1.13 Lethality. The breakeven point (assuming 1 Lethality = .4 + (Enemy level / 30) Armor Pen) is when 1.13 Lethality = .9 armor pen. Maths tell me thats at level 12. At level 1, you have .48 armor pen per mark, 4.41 for a whole set.

You also get 8.5 from precision + .3 per level. At level 1, thats 3.81. So youre looking at a total of around 8 armor pen from hybrid pen marks and precision at level 1.

Pre-Keystone Masteries era, you had a flat 8.1 Armor pen at level 1. So I'd say that if you are used to taking Hybrid Pen from before Keystone Masteries existed, you probably should still take them now. You basically got an early game buff when Keystones were introduced, but the change to Lethaltiy nerfed them back to previous values. Youre doing the same amount of autoattack damage you did 2 seasons ago. If they were worth taking then, they are probably worth taking now.

PROJECT KatarìnaDec 29, 201621 votes

http://www.ltisdschools.org/cms/lib09/TX21000349/Centricity/Domain/1906/Math_Hurts_by_loverofscythe.jpg

Acolyte of SteelDec 29, 20162 votes

Have an upvote for your efforts.

https://media.giphy.com/media/6Ppn6rE37j248/giphy.gif

Mysticman89Dec 29, 20162 votes

Kudos for looking at the big picture and including mastery changes. Many people, probably myself included, would likely have overlooked that.

Although, this does assume you're in a position to actually take precision, which means you're down at the bottom of the cunning tree which narrows things slightly, but also means you're giving up intelligence (extra 5% cdr) and I don't know how many people want to do that, as cdr is rather appealing on most mages.

There might be some minor shifts in bonus damage or bonus ad/ap and similar from various other mastery changes that also more reliably compensate stuff but thats a lot of looking up I don't feel like.

It remains though, you could take the precision mastery and get a chunk of early penetration for 'free', and instead of running hybrid pen runes, you could run AD runes for possibly more damage overall depending on the numbers.

DeathcapShacoDec 29, 201618 votes

Yeahhhh, I don't think they really thought about how these changes would ruin hybrid marks. Now they are overpriced AND useless. Woo

GigaPubeDec 29, 20162 votes

oh the poor new players who will see the small sacrifice to regular lethality/MPen runes to take a large portion of both marks in a single mark

at least its ok on squishies.... but only as a hybrid champ.... mainly just corki though.... maybe akali

The SoulforgedDec 29, 20161 votes

I bought them for Poppy then she died.

Gregor GysiDec 29, 20162 votes

Any runes that involve lethality are useless. Equal on level 12, holy shit.

DunkinNoobsDec 29, 20162 votes

All of the champs that could conceivably run hybrid pen reds would like AS or AD reds better now.

aspects1Dec 29, 20161 votes

Jax

Ok sure but whyDec 29, 20161 votes

still talking about early game

aspects1Dec 29, 20161 votes

i mean they are not completely useless, they are just mid/ late game runes now

Deep Terror NamiDec 29, 20161 votes

Oh yeah you're right, fuck me I need to change my pages D: Will flat AD + Magic pen be more effective even if they run x9 Armor Seals? Need some real math to figure out what's best.

MorgManBasherDec 29, 20161 votes

Maybe they aren't as bad as I think they are, but they seem like they would be REALLY bad now. I generally run hybrid reds on most of my supports >.>

TeCoolMageDec 29, 20161 votes

Normal lethality marks are useful on duskblade users as it gives you 20-48 true damage on your duskblade passive. When you're not an ADC and able to auto attack constantly that's like 20 AD on top of the armour penetration.

I don't know about hybrid.

General Esdeath Dec 29, 20161 votes

Personally I think armor pen runes should have stayed and lethality on items be removed. The real issue was people rushing item 3142 and before that it was brutalizer and the old item 3035 . Remember last season when Jayce Riven Jhin Lucian Renekton Pantheon MonkeyKing would all rush this item and saw spikes in play rate?

Chromatic EagleDec 29, 20161 votes

So I've been running the hybrid runes on Sej and Sion because reasons. If they're that useless, what should I use now?

SteelMankindDec 29, 20161 votes

Well magic pen makes more sense for Sej, even before the changes. Most Sejuanis run attack speed however because her clear sucks. For Sion you could go AD or armor

Chromatic EagleDec 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well magic pen makes more sense for Sej, even before the changes. Most Sejuanis run attack speed however because her clear sucks. For Sion you could go AD or armor

Thank goodness I thought I was just bad on Sej. I read a guide on Sion that suggests lethality for laning because of his base damage and E. It's actually been working decently for me.

MorgManBasherDec 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hrxToRI8,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2016-12-30T00:45:02.799+0000)

Thank goodness I thought I was just bad on Sej. I read a guide on Sion that suggests lethality for laning because of his base damage and E. It's actually been working decently for me.

Probably better off with magic pen if you are going W and E max first, otherwise I suggest flat AD reds if you are going Q max, personally. Hybrid may or may not still be worth it on Sion, I still use it. I'm unsure, but with the changes it might just be better to go with magic pen.

Chromatic EagleDec 30, 20161 votes

What about yellows and blues for Sej? Should I get armor or hp? I think I should get scaling mr for her.

Raven RedeemedDec 30, 20162 votes

In my opinion those are all good options. The standard is flat armor and mr, but hp yellows would probably be good too since you'd have more damage on your W and Sej gets free armor from her passive. I think flat vs scaling mr on jungle champs is up to you. Personally I run 3 flat, 6 scaling.

Raven RedeemedDec 30, 20163 votes

Sion main here, I still think hybrid is really effective on him (if not better). The flat magic pen is good for his E poke in lane and the lethality kicks in as Sion's damage transitions in primarily physical later on in the game.

Magical TrashDec 29, 20161 votes

It was not too long ago that I had saved up for these runes to try them out on some supports, and now it seems all that effort and IP was a waste. Really sucks, tbh.

Raven RedeemedDec 30, 20161 votes

Yeah, that bummer. They're spendy suckers.

IncarcerationDec 29, 20161 votes

How about regular lethality?

MonkeyMadnessDec 29, 20161 votes

I think the flat armor pen from runes and masteries should stay as regular flat armor pen. They were never really the problem. The problem was that assassins could stack some early flat pen ITEMS (ie serrated dirk) quickly and cheaply and basically deal true damage to any non-tank.

Starcraft243verDec 29, 20161 votes

So are a lot of runes wich are never used.

My Waifu VanillaDec 29, 20161 votes

Even on Akali I take AD or MPen reds since they are better than Lethality due to scalings or just more mag pen.

Spice POWAHDec 29, 20161 votes

At least they're reworking runes Soon(tm)

6SfoolDec 29, 20161 votes

Yeah, I noticed that too. They still work pretty well with champs that do mixed damage by design, but not nearly as good for champs that just get a few autos in early.