I think some more varied AP itemisation would be nice.

Kuronii Lumiira··13 votes·650 views

For a while, the Mages were catered to, and that made people upset with usual knee-jerk reactions whenever someone mentioned that AP champions need a change. Nowadays, we've seen the Mage update, which changed very little overall, and then the Marksman and Assassin updates, both of which changed items, brought in new ones, and made itemisation feel more complete. However, AP items give out nothing but more damage, CDR, and some health. I feel like they're weak overall because they don't offer enough.

So far, we have two items for AD casters that give armour, not counting the component parts: item 3156 and item 3814 . One gives both MR -and- lethality, but we don't have a comparable item for AP casters. Sure, there's Zhonya's, with the great active, but it gives less armour than the AD items have MR. On top of that, the active is only just good in some situations, like escaping Fizz or Zed ults. Not being able to move during stasis will more than likely end up with your opponent crowding you and picking you off when it ends. It's not a means to an end, like the Lifeline passive, or the spell shield - it's just a hindrance.

Besides a lack of resistances, there are only -two- items that give flat magic penetration and one that gives percentage penetration. There are three flat armor penetration items, which also have great stats in other fields, including one passive ( item 3147 ) that is vastly more useful than stasis. And then you also get your choice of percent armour penetration item, along with a passive for each that benefits the holder greatly. 15% increased damage? Grievous wounds? Man, that sounds great. On every application of physical damage? Oh man. I sure like that the comparable AP item has a stipulation attached to it.

In the end, I think that less damage and better stats, or additional items with more variety of stats would make for a more complete feeling for AP casters.

21 Comments

Big Lincoln6 votes

ap items have more health to make up for lack of resists, and you're fairly diversified in item paths already.

as for magic pen, it's because MR doesn't scale on ranged champs. There is considerably more armor in the game; therefore, AD assassins were given more armor penetration. mages are able to deal true damage or close enough to it to ranged squishies with just flat pen items and masteries+runes

Maximum Morde1 votes

:). AD has some health options too. Black Cleaver/Triforce, Frozen Mallet, Titanic Hydra.

Marshbouy4 votes

item 3030 item 3152 item 3151 item 3041 item 3027 item 3040 Don't have any AD counterparts. Even taking out the crappy examples where you can debate if there is an AD counterpart that still leaves item 3040 item 3041 item 3030 item 3152 That's 4 items that you just kinda "forgot" about, or something. They are all pretty unique.

Might wanna add those to the post in case the mage haters come to hate on you.

Kuronii Lumiira2 votes

There's Muramana. The "snowball harder" item is purely AP and doesn't benefit someone going even or behind in lane. The hextech items are certainly unique and interesting, Protobelt tends to have very particular champions who can make use of its active, and the active is relatively lacklustre compared to Cleaver's passive. The GLP item is easily passed over, tbh.

Sure, they're unique, but they don't add much variety. "More AP" or "More HP" is something we've seen from other items such as item 3027 item 3116

Dethflash3 votes

I 100% agree with you. There are lots of AP items, but the vast majority of AP items are for very specific situations or champions. If you dont want a burn effect on your abilites well then no magiv pen for you. You dont need the cdr or active from Zhyonas well then thats a useless item then, but you have no other items to give you armor as a mage. Want to rush 40% cdr, welp you HAVE to buy item 3165
Anyone AD has so many more item choices to pick from to help them when compared to mages

Kuronii Lumiira1 votes

Mhm, it simply feels like mages are shoehorned into particular build paths. The addition of the Hextech items helped, but they're by-and-large just items with more HP and actives that are easily passed over. I don't see the ice hextech item being very decent at all, except in particular circumstances.

And yet, when AD champs get some AD+HP items, like Cleaver or Sterak's, they feel great and mesh with the champions fantastically. More health+shield means you get to survive better and possibly get out. Protobelt? Yeah, you get to reposition yourself slightly, which is easily caught up to by any decent gapcloser.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

Okay.

item 3003 = item 3043 item 3152 = (No ad counterpart) item 3030 = No AD counterpart. item 3151 = item 3153 item 3157 = Eh, item 3139 somewhat. item 3165 = None. item 3285 = more or less item 3074 item 3135 = item 3035 item 3031 = item 3089 item 3001 = None, because no AD item defends against AD damage. item 3100 = item 3078 item 3027 = none.

Also, there are 2 resist AP options, and a shiton of Health ones. What about AD? 3 MR options, 2 health ones (Triforce and cleaver). AP itemization is pretty varied.

Julanus2 votes

Actually, your post has some mistakes and missing entries.

{quoted}

item 3003 = item 3043

item 3508 as well, though for Crit users.

item 3030 = No AD counterpart.

item 3025 item 3022 Each apply slows, one of which is AoE. item 3153 item 3146 Their actives reduce or steal the target's movement speed.

item 3151 = item 3153

Only in regards to the Health% damage passives.

item 3165 = None.

item 3123 Applies Grievous Wounds on every smidgen of physical damage dealt for only 800g. item 3508 Attack Damage, Mana restoration and Cooldown Reduction.

item 3285 = more or less item 3074

More like item 3087 or item 3085.

item 3001 = None, because no AD item defends against AD damage.

First off, "AD" stands for "Attack Damage". Saying "AD damage" is redundant as it ends up meaning "Attack Damage damage". Along with that, many Attack Damage items help the wielder defend against damage item 3812 item 3053 item 3072 as well as items with armor that deal physical damage. item 3742 item 3025 However, as far as items with both Attack Damage and Armor, yes, there are none.

item 3100 = item 3078

item 3025 would also apply here, since it deals physical damage.

Also, there are 2 resist AP options,

There are 2 AP items with Magic Resist, though one of which is primarily a Supportive item. Judging from your list, Supportive items don't apply. item 3001 item 3174 (3 if you include Twisted Treeline's items item 3170)

and a shiton of Health ones. What about AD? 3 MR options, 2 health ones (Triforce and cleaver).

Actually.... You might wanna do a recount.

Counting the total items with Attack Damage and Health, there are 6. item 1055 item 3022 item 3053 item 3071 item 3748 item 3078 (7 if you include ARAM's item 3184, 8 if you also include Twisted Treeline's item 3104)

Counting the total items with Ability Power and Health, there are also 6. item 1056 item 3030 item 3152 item 3151 item 3027 item 3116 (7 if you include ARAM's item 3112)

Items with Attack Damage and Magic Resist? 3. item 3814 item 3156 item 3139

Items with Ability Power and Armor? 2, one of which is a Supportive item. item 3157 item 3050 (3 if going by Twisted Treeline's itemization item 3170 item 3090 since Wooglet's Witchcap is a map alternative to Zhonya's Hourglass.)

AP itemization is pretty varied.

So is AD itemization, arguably more-so than AP itemization.

Kuronii Lumiira1 votes

Remember that upvoting without commenting is a crime.

Evêñtfûl Hôrïzôñ1 votes

So can I just post this, and upvote, and leave? :P

Kuronii Lumiira1 votes

That is also acceptable.

Evêñtfûl Hôrïzôñ3 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

Lies

Zhonyas gives more armor than Merc Scimitar and EoN. Only Maw can compete.

It's active is also really good for dodging burst. If a Rengar jumps on you, you Zhonya's, your team kills him. If they don't kill him and you die to Rengar, your team sucks.

Tbh burst mages need their itemization separated further from artillery/kite/zonecontrol mages.

Smitemuffin1 votes
  1. All the HP/AP items lost health except item 3151 which was unchanged
  2. All the 120 AP items lost AP except one
  3. Several mages had their damage and AP ratios nerfed
  4. AP champs lost access to an entire stat
  5. AP champs still have virtually zero hp sustain, but in a drug-induced haze, devs decided to pidgeonhole them as sustained DPS. Which is literally impossible without HP sustain
  6. If you think mages were "catered to" any time past season 2, gimme the number of your dealer. Your weed is clearly better than mine and it makes me jealous

Have you ever watched Cassiopeia try to kill a tank? She doesn't even have enough mana with item 3027 item 3040 to kill a maokai with mercs and a visage. It's pathetic

Kuronii Lumiira2 votes

That's exactly what I'm talking about. There was a time when mages had a lot of resources at their disposal, and some fantastic actives/passives. DFG got removed because it gave "free damage", and people said "good".

The hate has been carried from that point onward, and so you get lots of people saying "good", when we have stuff like what you listed happening.

Smitemuffin2 votes

And then they wanna cry and spam #Marksman2017 because Vayne can only R+Q+oneshot other marksmen or any mage with zhonyas

Acheron161 votes

AP is already more valuable than AD

Magic resist doesnt scale, meaning that flat magic pen is atronger than Lethality

Void Staff penetrates total MR

AP items have HP incorporated into them, which is a generic defense stat (is good against everything but %HP damage)

AP items have the best actives, next to support items

Having 40% CDR isnt mandatory, so obviously you have to sacrifice something in order to achieve it (and even that's debatable)

Mages are the most versatile Champions in the game and can be legitimately played in any position (maybe not as well in the jungle), having good damage, sometimes good mobility and CC.

So I ask you, what more do you want?

There are no AD+Armor items in the game, because armor scales with levels. The few rare AD+MR items that there are are for assassins, otherwise they'd get killed by a single spell rotation by most mages. There are only a few Health+AD items in the game, but they offer more health than AD (unlike mage items) not to mention that the passives scale better with juggernauts (melee+ beefy)

So I will ask again, what more do you want that wont make mages downright broken?

To put in perspective, magic damage is so strong and regular in the game that Riot is making a Magic Resist item to combat sustained magic damage. That's how strong magic damage is.

Kuronii Lumiira1 votes

See, this is the kind of response I'm talking about. Someone speaks up to ask not for stronger AP items, but AP items that are more varied or versatile -- something to break the monotony of having just AP+HP. And then people in the community speak out and say we're overstepping our bounds, that we're asking for Riot to break mages.

No, that is absolutely not what I'm asking, or what most other people ask. We want AP items that allow us to try things other than the nonsense we've been shoehorned into. Some -more- options to get armour without having to rely on some active that ties our hands would be nice. More access to flat magic penetration would be great. And you know what Riot can do in response to that? They can change MR values and the way base stats scale and work in general. There's nothing stopping them from adjusting that, as long as it isn't too much "work".

After marksmen and assassins have been catered to, hand and foot, don't tell me we're asking too much for AP champions.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

well... it'd be nice to have a critical+ap item.

right now there is every combination under the sun except critical+ap.

and technically to be fair there isnt a true HP regen + AP item either. just the stand ins like ROA.

and with the reworked items im a bit confused why they even removed the spell vamp book

Kuronii Lumiira1 votes

The reason they removed Will of the Ancients was because they had two problem champions (Vladimir and Swain, but mostly Vladimir) who abused Spell Vamp to become unkillable monstrosities. Riot reasoned that the removal of greater spell vamp would allow them to balance those champions more easily and properly, since Vlad is especially on that razor's edge of "overpowered beast" or "underpowered weakling".

Of course, instead of properly reworking Vlad's kit to be less of that, or giving him a new theme entirely, they decided to hamstring the rest of the mages and give a nonsense reason for removing spell vamp.

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

Morgana is forever wounded because they removed will of the ancients.

DrMundo too, but for different reasons.

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