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Some Observations About Winrates

TehNACHO··24 votes·2,351 views

Data taken from Lolking, the highest win rate champs of December 28 in the last month within Solo Queue

At the time of writing, the top 10 highest win rate champions of the game are as follows:

Brand Trundle Amumu DrMundo MissFortune Malzahar Rammus Janna Lux Volibear

And I want to point out some common trends I noticed.

For a start, a whole 6 of the 10 champions noted are Magic Damage dominant, further supported by that Janna is an AP Support and Volibear does Hybrid damage. The exceptions to this rule who truly do mostly physical damage being Trundle, Miss Fortune. Could this be a problem with Magic Resistance?

Interestingly, the top 10 are perfectly split between 5 Melees and 5 Ranged.

Most of these champs sit in interesting places on the damage Triangle. Brand and Malzahar both are primarily Burst Based Mages with some Anti-Tank and sustained damage qualities. Trundle, Amumu, Mundo, and Volibear are all rather DPS heavy champs if we consider them primarily Tanks. Rammus heavily counters DPS champs, his part of the Triangle's weakness.

There are 0 Assassins in the top 10.

Depending on your definition of a Fighter/Tank or Tank/Fighter, you're looking at nearly half of the top 10 being these Tanky damage dealers. Ironically, none of them are the 6 "official" Juggernauts that Riot points towards, so could it be a case that these almost Juggernauts slipped by while Riot focused on their more popular brethren?

Interestingly, all of these champions are from 2011 or are even older than that. They're also relatively immobile, as the only one with a dash or flash is Amumu's ability to drag himself to targets.

Just some thoughts and observations. How do you guys interpret the data?

49 Comments

LankPants14 votes

For a start, a whole 6 of the 10 champions noted are Magic Damage dominant, further supported by that Janna is an AP Support and Volibear does Hybrid damage. The exceptions to this rule who truly do mostly physical damage being Trundle, Miss Fortune. Could this be a problem with Magic Resistance?

I think a good part of the reason for this is because people often put together retarded all AD team comps, which proceed to lose a lot of games, enough to have an impact on ADs winrates as a whole. You can't really do this with AP champs, a team with an extra AP champ is almost always more balanced in terms of damage output than a team with an extra AD champ.

Critmaster Garen8 votes

ok, op made another mistake.

the highest winrate champs are actually from left (no.1) to right:

Trundle Volibear DrMundo Kayle Morgana Sona Zilean Velkoz jungle Trundle Malphite

source

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend

overall solo que winrates are misleading, as everything below plat is irrelevant to game balance. its where riot draws the line where the players have to still learn and adjust to the game before the game is adjusted for the players.

chosing a timeframe over a month is also entirely misleading, as game balance changes with every patch cycle. so champion winrates are only meaningful when you consider nothing but the current patch cycle.

TehNACHO13 votes

Please note you are using an entirely different website than I am (^ ^)

I made no mistake, we are simply referring to different sets of data.

Interestingly though, a lot of the observations I made stay consistent with your data, like the top pool being highly skewed towards Magic Damage, the notable presence of Tanky Damage dealers, and 0 Assassins.

We can play this game all day; for example, I can easily argue that since this is a team game, ranked 5v5 stats is the most relevant source of data we should rely on. Instead of that, let's try to make a real discussion out of this. Any observations you can make with your top 10 champs? Are any of these observations consistent with my observations of Lolking's data? Any observations that contradict Lolking's?

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted} I made no mistake, we are simply referring to different sets of data.

your set of data is highly flawed as a basis for statistics for multiple reasons.

riot balances according to 5v5 (pro play) and solo que data for plat and upwards.

TehNACHO11 votes

Or we can keep playing this game.

Another thing I noticed, your data is a perfect split between Melees and Ranged.

Critmaster Garen11 votes

{quoted}

Or we can keep playing this game.

Another thing I noticed, your data is a perfect split between Melees and Ranged.

well, if you want to draw any conclusion, you have to start with the relevant data. so this is kindof important.

one thing that certainly meets the eye, is that all of them except malphite have a generally low playrate. kayle and zilean even at 1% and below. the rest of them 5% and below.

which is again. to explain by the fact that theyre rarely ever picked, but if they are, then only into clearly favourable matchups.

TehNACHO5 votes

Alright, let's keep playing with the data then.

Malphite seems like a relevant topic to you; any interesting notes you want to add on him past his Magic Damage, Anti-DPS (or at least anti AD) qualities, being a Tanky damage dealer, and being an older champ?

Also, maybe an observation towards why all these champions that seem to be specific counter picks oddly share a lot of traits with each other?

Pale Pirate2 votes

This data is incorrect as it only counts the win-rate of the champ when he goes to a certain lane, not his performance overall. Morgana or Zilean mid may have some hardcore mains, but this doesn't tell anything about they general power.

TehNACHO5 votes

No, no, please. There is no point in playing this game; the specifics of the data we post will change over time anyway. It'd be far more productive to instead focus on the general qualities of the data given.

Like, again, the interesting amount of shared qualities between Lolking and Champion.gg's data.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

This data is incorrect as it only counts the win-rate of the champ when he goes to a certain lane, not his performance overall. Morgana or Zilean mid may have some hardcore mains, but this doesn't tell anything about they general power.

its not incorrect. its just very specific.

these champs have the highest winrates in the game, when played in these positions.

WookieJesuz1 votes

Ugh kayles up there. That prob means rito nerf soon ;-;

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hgy26PAh,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-12-28T22:02:17.290+0000)

ok, op made another mistake.

the highest winrate champs are actually from left (no.1) to right:

Trundle Volibear DrMundo Kayle Morgana Sona Zilean Velkoz jungle Trundle Malphite

source

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend

overall solo que winrates are misleading, as everything below plat is irrelevant to game balance. its where riot draws the line where the players have to still learn and adjust to the game before the game is adjusted for the players.

chosing a timeframe over a month is also entirely misleading, as game balance changes with every patch cycle. so champion winrates are only meaningful when you consider nothing but the current patch cycle.

That's....really surprising. I thought Janna has had a 53+% win rate pretty much all year. I guess the recent influx of AP supports has made her less useful as a counterpick.

Dreadlocks7 votes

I interpret it like this: Whiny newbs on the forums will cry about a champion that out plays them at a 45% winrate before they complain about an easy straight forward champ that has a 60%winrate.

Xicashina3 votes

{quoted}

I interpret it like this: Whiny newbs on the forums will cry about a champion that out plays them at a 45% winrate before they complain about an easy straight forward champ that has a 60%winrate. Tough to take but well said [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Critmaster Garen5 votes

winrates on their own have little relevance. play rate is also important.

if a champion is played 1% of the time, you can assume the statistic to be distorted by the fact that hes almost exclusively played by dedicated mains into favourable matchups.

BluePolarizer5 votes

They all have insane AOE nukes or AOE CC while still being good at something else. The only exception is Trundle because he is anti-AOE tank and an amazing duelist.

Just having an AOE nuke/CC is not enough if you have little else to offer beyond champs in their class (just see the trash win rates on Nautilus Syndra Katarina Hecarim Gragas Vladimir ) but if you do, the AOE nuke or CC will push the champ over the top.

For instance, Malphite is played for his AOE CC/nuke but he is ALSO the tankiest champ in the game against AD AND scales with armor. Amumu is played for his AOE CC but he ALSO has some of the strongest AOE sustained damage in the game, potentially even on the level of Karthus but attached to a tank. Kayle has the 3rd highest sustained magic damage DPS in the game next to Azir and Karthus but ALSO has an invincibility ult AND shreds resistances. etc etc. you see where there are always these "ands"?

Br4ndon4 votes

A few of them have small player pools that is made up of mains. Of course their winrates will be inflated.

TehNACHO2 votes

Then let me pass on a question I gave to Critmaster Garen:

[Could you make] an observation towards why all these champions that seem to be specific counter picks oddly share a lot of traits with each other?

Let's make a discussion out of this, since there are some rather consistent qualities among these champs.

Br4ndon2 votes

Theyre all good at kiting except maybe voli, amumu and rammus. Though they can situationally move quickly.

Meteor Driz4 votes

I think with how much damage everyone does now, lengthy CCs are what really drives the win rates. Additionally, super tank champs that can soak up damage basically act as CC while their team wipes everyone out before you can burn through their hp.

So it comes down to either mega CC or mega tank as an attribute, with many having both.

Brand (CC) - Longest stun in the game

Trundle (Tank/CC) - Ice Pillar is extremely long CC if champion is immobile. Also very tanky with ult.

Amumu (CC/Tank) - His ult has always been absurdly strong in solo que, pretty sure hes always been near the top. Now a days, even with only 1 or 2 damage items it always takes half the hp of most targets.

DrMundo (Tank/CC) - Crazy tank, chain CC

MissFortune (CC) - This one is just a matter of new ADCs shining, plus her aoe slow and aoe damage ult just kills everyone

Malzahar (CC) - Incredibly long single target CC AND insanely long aoe silence from Q

Rammus (CC/Tank) - Taunt is crazy long and rammus is crazy tanky

Janna (CC?/Tank?) - This one is surprising to me, but her CC is chainable and her ult does make the entire team tanky

Lux (CC) - Good catch with her CC, easily full combos people from a safe distance

Volibear (Tank) - Not great CC but really tanky due to passive and good pick potential

elon wątroba1 votes

Janna always had high winrate, due to ability to reset teamfights.

Captain Aishi1 votes

volibear is an extremely strong early game champion, so his winrate in soloQ is bound to be high due to the snowbally nature of the game mode

don't forget that malzahar generally cc's people inside of his W that deals 30-40% of targets max hp come late game (his damage ratios on all spells are completely bonkers on top of him having good CC)

trundle steals stats with his ult, allowing him to become immensely tanky while shredding an enemy tank (in a meta where last whisper isn't being bought until very late in the game most of the time, this ult empowers his team while weakening the enemy's even more than it historically did)

BluePolarizer1 votes

+1. Voli is strong because he gets so much damage from masteries and kit alone, he can build full tank and still hurt ALOT, while capitalizing on mistakes often. His major problem is that he is a poor diver later on due to his lack of mobility but he peels and frontlines very well. His win rate is amazing in below 30 minute games.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

With MF, you forgot to mention that her E is OP with T-Lords, making her strong in all stages of the game. She also interacts well with a lot of the CC tanks here.

Doril4 votes

I think your analysis attempt is nice, but I think the data sets are flawed. Personally, I don't buy into the statistics that these sites release for the following reasons:

-champion.gg: It homogenizes too much. Firstly, it ignores regional differences -- realistically, for some reason, a champ that is really good in one region can be really poorly played in another region -- not sure why this is. Furthermore, I think even including plat into the dataset meaningless, since it's not unusual for platinum players to have some "obvious" mechanical problems that wouldn't occur at a higher ranking (diamond+). -lolking: No transparency about how their statistics come from. If they homogenize all statistics (normals, ranked, etc.) that's bad.

Here's a really specific reason I don't believe it:

Volibear: I've played him for a long time and he suffers from that fact that he is really team comp/enemy team comp dependent. If we're talking about skilled players on both sides, speed-up champs/slow-down champs can make volibear a god/ruin him respectively. That being said, volibear works really well at lower skill levels for the pure reason that most lower ranked players have forgotten about him and don't know how he works -- I've seen this a lot during previous season's placements.

My personal opinion is to use op.gg. The sorting that you can do with their statistics is quite useful and they champion winrates seem to align with what is commonly known (Ex. Kindred is known to be really strong but didn't make it on your top 10 list).

TehNACHO2 votes

Interesting you point out specifically Kindred and Volibear, as Volibear is also on op.gg's top 10 (he is rank 6) in terms of win rate, and Kindred is all the way at rank 98. (Note, I am referring to the default settings of all ranks of Solo Q).

I also want to point out that the champions of my list to op.gg's top 10 are nearly identical, other than subbing out Lux for Talon. That's legitimately interesting actually. Talon's not on Lolking nor Champion.gg's lists. How does op.gg calculate these things differently that let him surface?

Gotta pur a raincheck on the idea that Assassins aren't topping League's general balance statistics then~

LankPants1 votes

Gotta pur a raincheck on the idea that Assassins aren't topping League's general balance statistics then~

You see, winrates just aren't that great of an indicator of balance.

Champs historically have been and are broken at less than 50% winrates. Leblanc at her prime, one of the most broken champions ever to exist in league, had a 46% winrate. After her nerf her winrate has went up to 48% and has since fallen back to 46%. The simple fact that a nerf can increase a champ's winrate should show how nonsensical using winrates as a sole determiner of balance is.

I think Stonewall does a very good job of explaining this here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuHVMlOi26Q

Doril1 votes

Sorry I missed this point in my comment, but I would filter by diamond+ AND KR server. I don't think the entire pool of LoL players means anything in terms of game balance, and imo KR is usually the fastest in figuring out what is strong. If you do that Volibear falls at approximately a 51% win rate (good, but not awesome-good).

I can explain why volibear looks so strong at ALL ELOs: pulling from my volibear experience, lots of lower ranked players tend to be "surprised" by him, simply because they have no idea how he works. Specifically, they underestimate how strong his W damage is and the fact that he has a passive mundo-like regen at low hp. I literally just played a normal game where an adc made this mistake (he tried to auto me at level 4 when I still had my passive up and ended up dying for it).

When you get to higher ELOs, this sort of behavior evaporates: they understand that Q is his only gap closer and they play around the fact that he has a passive hp regen. And this is why volibear is incredibly team dependent -- against a competent team, they'll make a strong attempt at positioning such that volibear just can't straight up run at them and flip them with Q. On the flip side, I would never pick volibear unless I knew my team had strong speed ups (Ex. Lulu) or their team had relatively immobile champions with few slows, because I'm just asking to get kited forever.

Wheatloaf3 votes

Almost all of those champions are drastically more effective against disorganized enemies than organized opponents, so a decent amount of their power comes from there. Another big factor is that some of those champions are played only by a very small, dedicated set of players, who are just flat-out going to perform better on their respective champions than sheep following the FotM.

BluePolarizer1 votes

thats not true. you shouldn't look at pick rate for that, but rather playerbase experience (average number of previous games on that champion that a person playing that champ has). A low player base experience with a high win rate means that the champ is so freelo and OP, even first timers win with him. DrMundo

Kieferr3 votes

How do I interpret this data you ask?

"DUUUUUUURRRRRRRR. YASsuo OP. LEE SIN OP. NERF THEM RIGHT NAo! Remove WINDWALL! Remove ward hop! Remuve Tresh lanturn!! MAaGES SO WEAak! BUFF a1l mages!!! Mobility creep iz kansur!!!"

Mr Broken Wings2 votes

It means lastwhisper changes and overall magitemecost increases made tanks deal the same damage in lategameszenarios against squishies ( when squishy dps champs or full classcannon assasins should at least outdamage them in short trades) while armor being ALREADY more efficient in midgame and earlygame then pure offensive stats before these changes. That means you can play 2 tanks every match in every comp and simply shit on people who pick things like kha zix at the moment for free. But hey, lets just nerf assasins more, the community seems to have a hard on for them~ I dont see the difference btw between a kha zix jumping out of the bush and 100-0 me in 2 seconds with 20-0 stats or the 2-0 pure tank malphite pressing r and aaing me to death with so much armor or mres that I simply cant trade him no matter what in terms of frustration. Both is frustrating, the difference is that kha needs much more gold for that AND stays squishy, malphite has less counterplay still I dont see people complaining about him being antifun cancer.

LankPants1 votes

It means lastwhisper changes and overall magitemecost increases made tanks deal the same damage in lategameszenarios against squishies

I've posted this before, but this is complete bullshit.

Lord Dominik's deals more damage to tanks than old LW ever did. I'm just going to copy paste some math I've already done here.

Against a tank with 90 base Armour (which is fairly high end), 160 bonus, and enough HP for 15% bonus damage, with 100AD 0 crit (damage is irrelevant since there's a % reduction)

100x(100/(100+(0.65x250)))=38.1 1.15x(100x(100/(100+90+(0.6x160))))=40.29

You do more damage against tanky targets with the new LW upgrade, especially with it being buffed next patch.

The community perception of Dominik's being weak is the only reason tanks are strong right now, not actually Dominik's being weak.

The Deckowner2 votes

consider play rate too, alot of these champions have munch lower play rate than the more popular assasin/juggernuts, alot of these champ are played by high skilled/experienced players rather than the bronze silver kids who fuck up our game all day(e.g. bronze lee sin).

VictoryDance961 votes

Well, considering that Mundo, MF, Amumu, and maybe even Lux are all popular bans I am not surprised at their win rates.

HayRoss1 votes

I know the reason for Amumu DrMundo Rammus (Garen is frequently on this list for highest winrates in solo queue, and I wanted to address him as well for the same reasons as everyone else) Because they do REALLY well in solo queue scenarios where the enemy team has very little co-ordination. Need to set up an easy ace as Amumu? Q + R = Congratulations, you're in Silver 5. Mundo? It takes an entire team to take that monster down. Rammus? He can single out 1 person and give his team a good 10 seconds to come in and Shrek him up. Garen? Come flying out of the nearest bush, obliterate the accursed villains, and leg it from the other 4 nerds chasing after you.

TL;DR: They work really well in Solo queue because they work really well against teams with communication skills of 5 lobotomized sponges

Cosnirak1 votes

Props just for that analogy! xD

ofart1 votes

{quoted}

I know the reason for Amumu DrMundo Rammus (Garen is frequently on this list for highest winrates in solo queue, and I wanted to address him as well for the same reasons as everyone else) Because they do REALLY well in solo queue scenarios where the enemy team has very little co-ordination. Need to set up an easy ace as Amumu? Q + R = Congratulations, you're in Silver 5. Mundo? It takes an entire team to take that monster down. Rammus? He can single out 1 person and give his team a good 10 seconds to come in and Shrek him up. Garen? Come flying out of the nearest bush, obliterate the accursed villains, and leg it from the other 4 nerds chasing after you.

TL;DR: They work really well in Solo queue because they work really well against teams with communication skills of 5 lobotomized sponges

The other thing is that they are hard to mess up too badly. If you have a first time Azir or Kog, they'll probably go 0/5 in lane and contribute little if anything. A first time Amumu will probably still be tanky and land some ults. The fact that even clueless players probably perform around 50% really boosts their winrate compared to other picks.

Troiann1 votes

They're a mix of extreme tankiness and high base damage (Voli, mundo, trundle, rammus can literally run through an entire team and slaughter the enemy adc with little to no difficulty), or they have a massive AOE wombo (brand, miss fortune, amumu), or bullshit pick potential that relies on soloqueue being soloqueue (malzahar and lux, maybe even amumu and rammus can fit here too). Janna is the best champ at dealing with stuff like rammus and trundle and other bruisers so she goes on the list too.

Cosnirak1 votes

Other than Janna most of them aren't that hard to play mechanically. Also total winrate in soloqueue means very little. shrug Also at least 3 (and maybe 4) are partially due to the overpowered version of deathfire touch (pre nerf version).

7ha7guy7771 votes

Let's look at what each champion can contribute while behind Brand % hp damage added on to every ability, single target stun, perma-slow with rylai's Trundle can steal AD, armor, and mr as well as hp, slowing field and a pillar Amumu stun, % hp damage, AoE root, mr reduction, perma-slow with rylai's DrMundo % current hp damage, decent slow with low cd compared to duration MissFortune AoE slow, AoE physical damage MalzaharAoE % hp damage, longest duration silence which also happens to be AoE, single target lockdown, perma-slow with rylai's and 25% cdr Rammus small AoE knockback, taunt, can damage turrets with ult Janna AoE knockup, AoE knockback, shield+AD steroid, "captain enchantment", slow, AoE heal Lux root, shield, slow Volibear flip, slow, hp scaling % missing hp execute

(Adding in the op.gg list) Kayle slow, heal, 2-3 seconds of invincibility for an ally Morgana root, cc prevention, multi-target stun ZileanAoE stun, xp boost, speed boost, slow, "guardian angel" Velkoz AoE suspension, slow on Q and part of the ult, true damage Sona 2 person heal/AoE shield, magic damage on an auto, AoE speed boost, AoE stun, slow, enemy damage reduction

It's possible that what the champions can do from behind might have something to do with their high winrates (and assassins being out of the top 10).

Streeton1 votes

the top 10 champions are all highly efficient and take minimal amount on skill to play. Basically every low elo player plays them

DogIsGod1 votes

My take on this is that you should stop using LoLKing and use leagueofgraphs

Hayaishi21 votes

Amumu has had that retarded win rate forever because:

  1. Bandage hit box is completely broken.
  2. Builds full tank and by mid game/early game he is soloing everything squishy, while also being hard to kill.
  3. Good teamfight ultimate, no complains here.
  4. On top of all he is braindead easy to play.
ofart1 votes

{quoted}

Amumu has had that retarded win rate forever because:

  1. Bandage hit box is completely broken.
  2. Builds full tank and by mid game/early game he is soloing everything squishy, while also being hard to kill.
  3. Good teamfight ultimate, no complains here.
  4. On top of all he is braindead easy to play.

Yes, but he drops a lot in higher ELO. In Diamond he's not even at 50% and many high ELO jgs consider him trash.

Xenomancers1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but he drops a lot in higher ELO. In Diamond he's not even at 50% and many high ELO jgs consider him trash.

Amumu has higher winrate in higher ELOs lol so trash.

ofart1 votes

{quoted}

Amumu has higher winrate in higher ELOs lol so trash.

That's just completely false.

Spoofghoul1 votes

Winrates are such a trash stat

Like on their own they say literally nothing.

What are their playrates for example?

MrSlowDie1 votes

assassins are not there because they are not too much problem. The only problem is they can kill squishy in an instant, and everybody hates being killed. So you can see assassins QQ thread all the time.

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