Ap kog maw

DogshítPlayer·Dec 25, 2015·16 votes·1,898 views

he is dead i think i tried him a while ago.. it does not work the damage is really really.. not there any suggested builds orrr anyone else feel the same

37 Comments

LaughingStaplerDec 25, 20157 votes

Yes, with the W base damage lowered so much as well as worse AP scaling and duration, it's harder to lane. You also have to sacrifice mana each time you use W for CSing which limits your ability to trade or poke. AP builds also don't have as much AS as AD so W is just a net nerf for them.

However, his poke is also abysmal when they're >50% HP so it seems like Riot wants to force him to use W. It's just a bad situation for a champion with almost no CC, mobility or tankiness. They said they wanted to keep the AP build viable and I'm still hoping that they will be honest and fair about that. The current state kills the poke style that was typical of AP Kog without providing a viable alternative.

I gave more of my thoughts on this here.

DogshítPlayerDec 25, 20153 votes

well if they want to preserve ap kog maw... can they buff the base damage of his w to at least 4 percent cause that w does no damage at all and the only efficient builds on him are basically all on hit effect do people eve build adc kog anymore? i mean all i see is rage blade hurricane and botrk..

DorkunedAurasDec 25, 20154 votes

that would also make his AD/on-hit form incredibly broken. Give it a stronger AP ratio if you want AP kog.

DogshítPlayerDec 25, 20153 votes

yea actually that is a better solution!

DorkunedAurasDec 25, 20151 votes

keep in mind, if he did 4% max hp on hit, and attacked 5 times a second, then in 5 seconds, he'd do 100% max hp magic damage. That's just the on hit from the ability. From everything else you have, that's absurd.

RebonackDec 25, 20154 votes

{quoted}

keep in mind, if he did 4% max hp on hit, and attacked 5 times a second, then in 5 seconds, he'd do 100% max hp magic damage. That's just the on hit from the ability. From everything else you have, that's absurd.

Five second is enough time for basically any end-game ADC to kill someone.

Sire HippingtonDec 25, 20152 votes

not without any ad or crit at all....

DorkunedAurasDec 25, 20151 votes

Exactly. This is just the base damage. if you factor in all the other damage he's doing, it's a heck of a lot less than 5 seconds.

Sire HippingtonDec 25, 20152 votes

The W was hardly nerfed for ap-kog(besides the uptime). One should not forget that on-hit basically counts twice duering W, so compared to befor, the effective values are 4%+1.5%ap compared to 2-6%+1%ap Which means early on, it does more as you usually maxed it last or second as ap-kog, and the base for rank 1 is twice as high as befor. Later when the base damage is loer, the 50% increased ratio kicks in, so ap-kog should have more damage with W at all times, and synergieses even more with items like nahor's or rageblade(I really miss old hurricane though).

And let's be real about old Full ap kog that only played around ult. It was a rather toxic playstyle and as no-interactive as it can get, and haveing a playstyle rsolve ~80% around one out of 4 skills isn't very engageing. I hope they won't buff the ult-poke much if they buff ap kog, but rather buff his Q, and maybe even E if anything.

My Waifu VanillaDec 25, 20151 votes

And let's be real about old Full ap kog that only played around ult. It was a rather toxic playstyle and as no-interactive as it can get, and haveing a playstyle rsolve ~80% around one out of 4 skills isn't very engageing. I hope they won't buff the ult-poke much if they buff ap kog, but rather buff his Q, and maybe even E if anything.

How does that change with current On-Hit Kog who revolves almost 90% around W and literally Stat checking his opponent. Kog'maws current iteration is literally "do I have enough on-hit damage to kill you before you get in melee range and kill me?" I do not know about you, but that feels more of a non-interactive design than actually landing skill shots that were HEAVILY gated by mana.

Sire HippingtonDec 27, 20151 votes

With an ap-on-hit built, q+e+r do enough damage to be relevant, especially vs squishy/lowhealth targets. Especially befor the rework, it was THE built that fully used his entire kit. now it is a bit W focused, but still doesn't ignore any other part of the kit.

AD and Full-onhit always revolved 90% around AAs, which is a general problem with marksman as nearly all of them revolve nearly entirely about AAs(and fucking RNG) later in the game. And i'd argue that playing vs ~710 range AAs that have a clear window(6sec) and leave him rather imobile as the huge AS doesn't allow for proper kiteing without loosing a ton of dps is more interesting than dodgeing his ult 24/7 from a distance that can't even be closed by a flash-malph-ult. And the manacosts are mostly negated by items+bluebuff, he just had a 6sec downtime sometimes. A full-ult kog certainly is as bad to face as old nidalee.

RebonackDec 25, 20155 votes

AP Marksmen Koggy is decent.

AP Ult spam Kog can still work (sort of) but his poke is way weaker than it was before. His mana issues are also much more of... well... an issue.

DogshítPlayerDec 25, 20154 votes

So isnt the point of ap koggy to have good poke and if he does not have some sort of poke then... ya know

Photos of GhostsDec 25, 20151 votes

Not anymore, now you take him just to be a better AD Kog that takes turrets worse.

Pierce The VealDec 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So isnt the point of ap koggy to have good poke and if he does not have some sort of poke then... ya know

Yeah but some people like to think onhit nashors kog counts as AP kog.

CerbearusDec 25, 20154 votes

Played him AS/AP and ended up doing really well. Remember his AS is doubled and physical damage is reduced, but on-hits are still fully applied item 3006 item 3124 item 3115 item 3146 item 3091 item 3089

SlytherinUmbreonDec 25, 20152 votes

I think he's still pretty Good, just noticeably harder to play. His poke is weaker, but his team fight went from "A little ridiculous" to "How is this allowed?" You can't really use your Ult to weaken opponents for it's execute, but if your teamates can get them low enough for just the first damage spike, his damage can really ramp up. :)

For items: -Mana: item 3073 vs item 3029 vs item 3007 Tear probably gives Kog'maw the best early game out of these builds. It's the cheapest and gives the most flat Mana, so as a stand alone item it makes it easier for you to rush Tear > Needless > Luden's. RoA is weaker then tear(in cost, AP, AND mana.), and it should only be built as a standalone mana item when the health it gives is the most important things. It can be really difficult to assassinate a Kog'maw that's standing behind his turret with builds like Catalyst + Ruby + Cloth or RoA + Seekers + Boots. For the record, it's not 'bad' to build RoA > Luden's as your first two items, it's just that is mainly built when health is so important that surviving the early is more important then winning the mid game. consider vs: Leblanc Zed LeeSin MasterYi Now that Rabadon's isn't really a great item anymore, Archangels + RoA is basically the new Rabadons. I know some people probably read that and thought " But AA + RoA is way more expensive then Rabadons." But most mages can't just buy a Rabadons. Athene's/Morello + rabadons costs more then AA + RoA, because they provide their own mana and don't require you to build more items to make them work. Unfortunately, these guys really aren't clear cut at all. For a Damage oriented build, it REALLY sucks that they block you from building Luden's for so long. (Unless you're willing to sit on that Tear for a REALY long time...) Still, they're worth considering on any mage, whenever you can look at the map and say two things:

I can outscale my lane opponent.
the enemy team can't dive me super easily. It's also probably the best build vs a team with too many tanks. You'll need the mana to burn through all of their Phat. Just top it off with Liandries + void. Something you need to be aware of though: Sitting on Tear + catalyst can actually make your mana problems worse. You wont have the AP needed to clear waves with E and just 1 R. This can be fixed though, by weakening the melee minions until they can be killed with just E, and then using only 1 R on the Casters. Unfortunately, I'm not yet sure what champions this new kit outscales. (outside of the obvious, early game champs)

-Boots: item 3009 item 3047 item 3020 / item 3158 Sorc is standard, Lucidity is just a playstyle fetish of mine -3- Swifties for when the entire match relies on your ability to dodge skill shots. No pressure, bro. Blitzcrank Ahri Ninja tabi vs Zed/Yasuo/Lee Sin/Yi combinations. only when there are two of them.

-damage: item 3285 item 3135 item 3157 item 3151 item 3146 most of these are pretty self explanatory, so I'll skip and say "Liandries if they have too many tanks." And Gunblade is just something I've been really curious about trying, but really scared too :u I'm pretty sure it's not good, but I can't help be be intrigued. Rabadon's is only worth buying if you're already snowballing to the point that you're already going to win. But it does work as a "final nail in the coffin" sort of thing. Examples: item 3073 > item 3285 > ( item 3007 if stacked enough) item 1026 > ( if stacked enough) item 3135 > item 3029 > item 3191 / item 1011 > item 3157 / item 3116 > > /(into rylais) > > / > // item 3151

-Usage tips: You can't really use your ult to burn your opponent down for the execute. So only use your ult to last hit minions, Proc Luden's, or to apply Rylais if it's needed to catch or peel. If you're playing against a melee opponent, don't use your ult when they're just walking around. Save it for when they go to last hit. Go into a custom game, and practice clearing waves with low AP builds. I fucked up badly the first time I tried Tear + Catalyst in norms. -3- Once you build your first mana item, it's usually a matter of casting abilities against minions with the right amount of health, at the right time and in the right order. but it changes depending on how much AP you have. You might have a weak early game, but don't forget to pay attention to your opponent for moments of weakness you can abuse. They know you're weak early, and they'll often tryhard to try and abuse you for it. But if they miss a skillshot, you usually have about 5 seconds to abuse them before it comes back up. So don't be afraid to Q-W-Auto a Diana a few times after she misses her Q.(pre-6) >:3 Kog'maw is in a kind of awkward spot in terms of CDR... It's actually pretty great on him, especially now that he's more reliant on his basic abilities. But his ult doesn't scale well with it, and if he tries to build it his ult doesn't do much damage anymore. The best way to get CDR is to take CDR Glyphs, and maybe Quints too. For runes, your best options are: Marks: Magic pen Seals: Armor or health. Glyphs: Magic Resistance, Scaling AP, or Flat/scaling CDR. (You should only buy Flat CDR glyphs if you already own all of the champions you want. Holy shit, these things are expensive...) It might honestly be worth taking the +AD and AP/level mastery on Kog, since the AD scaling on his ult is crazy, so Kog is one of the few champions who can still potentially stack Scaling AP Runes with the Scaling AP mastery. Mag resistance vs Leblanc and Ahri. CDR vs everything else. Quints: Move Speed, CDR, Health, Armor. CDR is probaly the best option here, but how much you need depends on your Glyphs. With scaling CDR Glyphs, you want Two CDR glyphs. With Flat CDR glyphs, you want one or 3. Fill the empty spaces with whatever stat feels best. Movement speed works great against everything that's not point and click and Annie. Defensive stats if you aren't great at dodging skillshots even with MS. Masteries: standard: 18/12/0. Take most of the obvious ones, and choose whether you want Spell vamp or scaling stats, And Mana Regen or Execution damage. The first choice is pretty optional. Second one, I'm a bigger fan of the mana. Vs Assassins: 0/18/12 Get magic Pen + Thunderlords from cunning, and regen, health, and summoner spells from Resolve. Move speed vs minion damage is pretty optional here, and movespeeds value changes depending on the matchup. Move speed is realy good vs Zed and Yasuo, since you can sometimes go long periods of time without attacking the minions, which helps dodge their skillshots.

Holy Wall of Text, Batman!

ofartDec 26, 20151 votes

His teamfight on even footing is slightly better damage wise but it is counterbalanced by the fact that you're forced into riskier positions to use your full kit and a lot of that extra damage is tied to aiming only on the lower targets (which can be impractical or dangerous). With the old AP Kog, teamfights wouldn't be on even footing if his team is playing correctly since the whole idea is to poke before that. The real counter to it is NOT teamfighting (unless you have amazing engage) but rather split pushing instead and forcing rotations.

Poppy's kit wasn't really toxic and that's an overused stupid word. People thinking it doesn't make it true. She had glaring weaknesses and a great late game but still not as amazing as people think. She was weak vs AoE and DoT champs for example. Her early game was also easy to exploit. Toxic seems to be applied to every major strength of a champion and that's just stupid when you have many other things you can use to your advantage. Poppy wasn't OP and her strength in certain situations was well communicated.

BTW: Yes, I tried that Kog build. Mana is too much of an issue for mid-lane.

RebonackDec 26, 20151 votes

{quoted} Poppy's kit wasn't really toxic and that's an overused stupid word.

I find that people typically throw around the word 'toxic' when they mean 'really frustrating'.

And you've got to admit, Poppy Ulting the target with the least CC/damage and then eating everyone else was pretty frustrating.

I honestly think Riot could have kept Poppy's Ult for its intended purpose if they made it so Poppy's damage only works on her Ult target and made her untargetable to the enemy team to prevent wasting stuff on her.

AP Kog could be frustrating as well. I can understand why Riot did what they did.

More specifically, I suspect they did what they did because there were four poke-focused ADCs. Kog, Ez, Corki, and Varus to varying degrees. So they nudged Kog in the direction of sustained damage and executes while Corki got more of a focus on his magic damage and AoE.

Problem is, with how Koggy's W works and how crippling the mana cost on his Ult is his sustained damage has taken a hit, too.

khorneyDec 25, 20151 votes

a standard asap build which goes as follows runes are all ap marks going to be either pent runes or attack speed, items nashors first and a must rage blade boots either cd sorce shoes or beserker greaves, runaans lich bane and death cap this is a standard and very efficent asap build or attack speed ap

BonipherusDec 25, 20151 votes

Old AP Kog was considered toxic in Korea apparently. E had insane waveclear and you could poke them from extreme distances under tower. He basically ended up throwing out Nidalee spears that minions couldn't block for you. and we know old Nidalee had toxic gameplay patterns. Now AP Kog is just the finishing touch to a team comp with some good poke. Overall, probably a necessary change.

ofartDec 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Old AP Kog was considered toxic in Korea apparently. E had insane waveclear and you could poke them from extreme distances under tower. He basically ended up throwing out Nidalee spears that minions couldn't block for you. and we know old Nidalee had toxic gameplay patterns. Now AP Kog is just the finishing touch to a team comp with some good poke. Overall, probably a necessary change.

If he was so toxic, why did he get no play at Worlds from any region and virtually no play the entire season except once in a blue moon. I think he was completely fine and he was never commonly banned or played in any region. When a champion is actually toxic, they tend to be picked or banned a lot (often with a dominating winrate like Skarner, WW used to have).

If you check the patch history, you'll see he was nerfed several times last year and probably more than he deserved for how rarely he was even used and his glaring weaknesses (especially in the first 20 min).

Poke was the one thing he was good at but they were still very much dodgeable. Although, Rylai's did open up some unpleasant chaining mid-game. Poke is rarely fun to play against because the whole idea is risk-free damage from range. This applies to every champion which does it well but unlike most, Kog is squishy and has virtually no CC or early game pressure. Nidalee's pattern wasn't toxic just because of her poke. It was toxic because of HER MOBILITY, EARLY GAME POWER AND UTILITY ON TOP OF IT! She could buff and heal allies while also roaming exceptionally well with basically no risk. She was even good vs and as a split-pusher. Nidalee was the entire package with basically no answers but Kog never was.

BonipherusDec 25, 20152 votes

Um, no. Poppy's kit was really toxic. Everyone knew that and she still got almost no play. Riot also finds that Urgot has toxic parts in his kit and he is doing the worst among the marksmen right now. Strength isn't the same as toxicity.

OdinakosDec 25, 20152 votes

Yeah, people should learn what is the difference beween toxic and strong. Usually Rito keeps them weak enouph to not be any problem and fly under the radar of QQ posts.

qetzelDec 26, 20152 votes

You have to take the meta into account. Poke just isn't that strong against the engage and splitpush comps people were running at worlds.

KaipopDec 25, 20151 votes

Even after the changes I was still doing a lot of damage with Tear/Athenes, standard AP build

ToasteyDec 25, 20151 votes

I remember I posted, "RIP AP Kog" in the ADC changes preview thread, and Riot Ezreal replied, "Still there, and tearing up our playtests!"

They must have shit-flinging monkeys playtesting their proposed changes... I used to play AP Kog a ton; he's still my highest mastery to this day even though I haven't touched him since the ADC changes.

magic poleDec 25, 20151 votes

i think it's pretty dead since his ult now scales mostly off missing HP

Sire HippingtonDec 25, 20151 votes

If you just built for the Ult, he's worse. However, if you go for ap+on-hit, which i prefered befor the rework already, he still works fine. Nahors and guinsoo's are a very powerfull combination, your W really shreds away while e+q pack some good burst&poke. The ult is worse for poke, but snipping low health targets works better than ever as the damage vs <25%hp is way higher than befor.

The only really big nerf for him imo were the ult manacosts. It already does way less damage as spammable poke, so the massive increase in costs isn't really justifyed imo. Thw W cd could also be a bit lower, seeing how it has become his major damage tool even on AP. if it's on cd, he really has not much to offer. If he ever needs any buffs to his poke damage, i thin changeing the ult threshhold from 25%/50%hp to 33%/66%hp would help alot.

Pale PirateDec 25, 20151 votes

Don't worry, you can still play AP Tristana!

...Oh wait.

RenascentDec 25, 20151 votes

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2035922706/215452559?tab=builds

SouL1essDec 26, 20151 votes

Kog'maw in general is not worth playing right now if you want to win.

Try again when its 2016, or when Riot decides that they need to do something with him to make him better instead of worse.

RebonackDec 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Kog'maw in general is not worth playing right now if you want to win.

Try again when its 2016, or when Riot decides that they need to do something with him to make him better instead of worse.

I'm still laughing at the change they made to his W.

It resulted in his usefulness actually dropping.

Not by a lot, but still. This will go down in the history books along with the 'buff' to Sion's Innate HP decay that was meant to make him stronger.

ltmetalDec 26, 20151 votes

item 3070 item 3285 item 3020 item 3003 item 3116 item 3089 item 3135 switch the order of your last items as needed.

I don't feel like AP Kog is necessarily worse, but he is certainly far more team reliant.

Gold GeneralDec 26, 20151 votes

has anyone else tried hybrid kog? just curious and might try it myself something along the lines of item 3085 item 3124 item 3146 item 3157 item 3091 item 3006 ?

ofartDec 26, 20151 votes

Honestly, I like the Poppy rework. It's pretty interesting and unique but probably undertuned. I'm complaining a lot about the Kog rework and for good reason imo but they've USUALLY done a good job. Sion's rework was great. Graves too. Corki got more of a niche and other nice gameplay elements. Garen's rework was interesting too. I want them to do an equally good job on Kog.